Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ

"Divide and Rule" - was it ever thus...

Mark, I guess my other question is how far it is possible to see what is happening clearly behind the 'fog of war' mark regev talked about last night ? Melanie Phillips has being going off on one about the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ, but given that journalists are not being allowed into Gaza by the Israelis, I think her views can be safely ignored.

I mean, in the absence of independent verification, how can we take what the IDF say about the firing of mortars from / near the UN school at face value ??

The whole thing seems hugely disproportionate to me, and the pictures in the Guardian of dead children are shocking.

But I'm sure Mel would tell me I'm just being a sloshy-minded sentimentalist who can't see that there are two sides to every story. If only it were that easy...

Greeetings Mark.

Have you read Alan Dershowitz on the current conflict? (

II found it balanced and helpful, particularly regarding 'proportionality'.

Would that the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ were also proportional in all of its coverage (!).

Best wishes,
Dr Trout

#2 lord Bedd:

I believe they have now admitted the mortars did not come from the school.

It is surprising they had so much supportive evidence just after the attack, given it was inaccurate.

Regev's fog seems to have been the start of the admission.

Hello Mark,
I've just Googled 'Gaza blog' and was horrified by some of the stuff I found. This is an ATROCITY and its perpetrators should be held to account in an international tribunal as war criminals. Also, in contrast, I discovered a huge list of names of British Jews who signed up to condemn the current action of the Israeli Govt. re Gaza. Would it be possible for the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ to interview the Chief Rabbi, Sir Jonathan Sachs, to give him the opportunity, in the name of God and his co-religionists, to repudiate the behaviour of the Israelis?

Over 40 of the (elected) Hamas Legislative members to which to refer were kidnapped and are mostly held in what the Israelis call "administrative detention", a shadowy legal limbo in which torture is permitted.

Rather that read Dershowitz, I suggest Finkelstein or Avi Schlaim in the Guardian. (

To DrTrout, I would point out that Avi Schlaim served in the Israeli military whereas, to my knowledge, Alan Dershowitz fights from the safety of his keyboard, defending torture and OJ.

OPERATION 'ENDURING PRIMITIVE THINKING' (#5)

I'm saying nowt, Titus. All religions embody primitive mind-sets, but some are more primitive than others. (Do you know today's date?) Eating and drinking 'flesh and blood' and the total slaughter of wrong-believers; not that far apart really.

Let him who is without dogma, cast the first aspersion.

Mark, has any journalist asked the Israeli military how many people it has arrested and how many houses have been bulldozed?

Also, did you know that most US citizens think Bethlehem is in Israel.

Irish Mark, I think it is a muddying of the water Israel's supporters are very happy with, to say that Bethlehem is not in Israel.

The West Bank and Gaza are like the Bantustans of South Africa's past, and are part of Israel, they have no real control over themselves, and no ability to survive on their own with the current arrangement/laws etc.

I bet Israel loves to show how small it is on Political maps, surrounded by all those forces which despise it. Israel includes the Golan heights too. It will need to be just to its citizens to find peace with itself. It will also need to give more than the weaker side in compromises, just as the ANC gave in 1990 - 94.

Dear Mark, from talking to my friends in Nablus it is clear that people there are extremely frustrated with Abbas, his PA cabinet and his security forces on the ground who have become nothing but a manipulated accessory in the hands of Israel. Until this latest horrific attack on Gaza, the people in the Westbank have always supported their fellow Palestinians in Gaza by running huge demonstrations and clashing with Israeli forces. The kind of response we see today from the Wesbank is disgraceful not least because of the suppressive practices of Abbas’s security forces who continue to hunt down anyone who dares to freely demonstrate and continue to detain hundreds of Hamas’s activists. Today, Abbas has no public support and tomorrow the 9th he will no longer be legally the president.

Condaleeza Rice likes to distort the facts about the attempted coup in Gaza by the PA's henchman Mohammad Dahlan but she's forgetting about Abbas. As sandrews1991 points out, his term expires on 9th January.
The US and Israel, however, will be happy to support another puppet like Mubarak and Abdullah II. It seems to be their policy.
The only question remaining is: will Obama be happy with the status quo?

HAPPINESS IS NEED MET (#12)

I am increasingly of the opinion that Obama's happiness goes with the prefix 'President' more than the fate of mankind or any part.

The Radio 4 program 'Obama', very revealing.

What if Alan, were you a Palestinian? would the israelis' action be proportional?

Kessi

Forty years ago in: "Foundations of the State of Israel" Rev. Edward H. Flannery, originally published in The Lamp/A Christian Unity Magazine; June, 1969", said:

"Whoever deals with nothing but the question of refugees, boundaries, over-reaction, may find cause to criticize Israel, but cannot on that account cast doubt on Israel?s right to live and develop in peace."



Can we have some exposition - Mark - on Israel's right to live and develop in peace, please? I know it means going back to basics, rather than the detail of today, but I think it would help.

From what the Israeli Ambassador to London said to Jeremy Paxman the other night, Hamas - including their rockets and suicide bombers - are in the minority, whichever way you look at it ?

Forty years ago in: "Foundations of the State of Israel" Rev. Edward H. Flannery, originally published in The Lamp/A Christian Unity Magazine; June, 1969", said:

"Whoever deals with nothing but the question of refugees, boundaries, over-reaction, may find cause to criticize Israel, but cannot on that account cast doubt on Israel?s right to live and develop in peace."

[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]>

Can we have some exposition - Mark - on Israel's right to live and develop in peace, please? I know it means going back to basics, rather than the detail of today, but I think it would help.

From what the Israeli Ambassador to London said to Jeremy Paxman the other night, Hamas - including their rockets and suicide bombers - are in the minority, whichever way you look at it ?

Forty years ago in: "Foundations of the State of Israel" Rev. Edward H. Flannery, originally published in The Lamp/A Christian Unity Magazine; June, 1969", said:

"Whoever deals with nothing but the question of refugees, boundaries, over-reaction, may find cause to criticize Israel, but cannot on that account cast doubt on Israel?s right to live and develop in peace."




Can we have some exposition - Mark - on Israel's right to live and develop in peace, please? I know it means going back to basics, rather than the detail of today, but I think it would help.

From what the Israeli Ambassador to London said to Jeremy Paxman the other night, Hamas - including their rockets and suicide bombers - are in the minority, whichever way you look at it ?

Occupation, Occupation, Occupation.

This is what it is ALL about, and I am glad that your piece (backed up by the Hamas politician in the video) affirm this. Why is it then that the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ (OK Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ 1 News - much worse than Newsnight which shows much more intelligence and integrity) try at all costs to ignore, not mention or acknowledge it, preferring to ask questions around it instead continuing to add to the confusion of the general British public as shown by Greg Philo's comprehensive study, 'Bad news in Israel' which showed that:

"A huge majority of the British public thought that the 'settlers' were Palestinian, and that the 'occupied territories' were Israeli land being occupied by Palestinians. They thought that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was just another border conflict - they didn't realise that a people had been dispossessed."

By skirting around the edges, tip-toeing around the 41yr old military Occupation, the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ perpetuates the status quo. If more British people understood the reality, this whole sorry episode could be brought to an end a lot quicker - as with the South African Apartheid.

Doing so, suits Blair, suits the U.S., suits Israel but does not benefit the UK public who deserve to know and understand what is going on.

sanitychecker asked "Can we have some exposition - Mark - on Israel's right to live and develop in peace, please? I know it means going back to basics, rather than the detail of today, but I think it would help".

Wouldn't it be better to have some exposition on Israel's right to exist at all? The state was founded by Zionist terrorists who drove us out of the mandated territory of Palestine (murdering many British soldiers in cold blood in the process). They went onto drive out most of the Palestinian population who, with good reason, fled fearing for their lives. Since then Israel stole their land and denied them right of return whilst giving Jews everywhere the right to settle in Israel on land stolen from the Palestinians.

Those Palestinians who remained within the boundaries of 1948 Israel (18% of the population) became second class Israeli citizens in their own land, discriminated against because of their ethnicity.

The holocaust was a terrible crime committed against the Jewish people by the Nazis but this terrible crime in no way justifies the crimes Israel is committing on a daily basis on the Palestinian people.

The bottom line is that if Israel cannot reach a fair settlement with the Palestinian people based on mutual respect and understanding, what right does Israel have to exist at all?

I have just watched your piece on Newsnight. As usual no-one would know from hearing your discussion of Hamas that they were democratically elected by the people of Palestine in 2006 or that it was Israel which broke the ceasefire by killing 6 Palestinians on the 4th November. I really think you should read the article by Avi Shlaim in last Wednesday's Guardian. The pro-Israeli bias in your reports and the disproportionate airtime you give to Israeli lies and film footage continues to be infinitely depressing and frustrating.