Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ

The Israelis have exported billions of dollars worth of arms to Georgia. Israelis are the main investers in Georgia. On Saturday the Georgian Minister Temur Yakobashvili, a Jew who is fluent in Heberew, said: " The Israelis should be proud of themselves for the Israeli training and education received by the Georgian soldiers. We are now in a fight against the great Russia and our hope is to receive assistance from the White House, because Georgia cannot survive on its own."

How much longer do you intend to ignore Israeli meddling in Georgia? Will you have the same benign approach to Israeli greed for other people's land and property in Georgia/Russia as you do in the Middle East? Are the South Osettians to be the new Gazans?

I think that people are quickly forgetting the fact - or are not being told - that Georgian armed forces killed hundreds of civilians on the night of the 8th and early morning of the 9th of this month, during a premeditated offensive, using ground troops and motorized rocket launchers.

Let's say that again. 7 days ago, hundreds of innocent civilians were murdered during a night time attack carried out by Georgian soldiers.

Seems hard to believe doesn't it? It becomes even harder to believe when we hear our own foreign secretary criticising Russian troops for being on Georgian soil.

No mention of the hundreds of innocents killed by Georgian troops as they slept in their beds.

No mention?! NO mention??!

Aiding and abetting a war crime, is a crime in itself.

Not reporting on the crime is even worse - IMHO.

Why don't we ever get to hear any People's Republic of China officials' views on what's happening in the Causasus (and the West in general)?

Perhaps you could ask the Chinese ambassador onto the programme once in a while.........?

i hope review gets bulgarian violinist daniel tringov on sometime. most the ytube vids are good and the angel trio are just fun.

this would in keeping with the balkan news
see ytube:

Daniel Tringov, violin, Sevdana, G. Zl. Tcherkin

What will Ms. Rice say about Saakashvili? If the Russians want him for war crimes, and shelling civilians won't make him the ICC Poster Boy of the year, will the US cooperate? Are they going to try and snatch him? If Russian and and US special forces clash ....

I think in practice the legal machinery is not there for the Russians to do that as per Lugavoi. The UK position on that still seems to me to be surreal. Lugavoi was just as likely to have been smuggling polonium to Litvinenko with Scaramella in Italy as the end target as to have killed him.

But as yet there has been no US government comment of regret or sympathy for the 2000 Russians killed that I have seen. G8 membership questions and comparisons to 1968 Czechoslovakia instead. Hunters' comments about the US being the only great power are sure to have helped.

The comments about Poland and the missile shield also seem to put beyond doubt that the missile shield is indeed with Russia in mind.

Therefore are we going to see more Russian nuclear subs in Western waters to counter the missile shield? Shoot under the shield with tactical weapons. Some ICBM's would get through. Does that also reduce the window of time to a few minutes to make sure that either side does not start a nuclear exchange by mistake?

The US statements appear to be ideological expressions that are inappropriate to reality.

Bush has screwed up everything that he has handled. This looks to be no exception and I am depressed that it sounds as though Obama is not showing genuine independence of thought for the future.

#5. The patriot battery the US is offering to Poland certainly has the Russians in mind... but frankly as its only any use when Russian Mach 2 bombers come screaming into Poland I don't see why any sane person would deny Poland the right to install a purely defensive weapon.

The US anti-missile missile systems on the other hand are utterly useless against Russian ICBMs. Russia has about 30,000 warheads and only about 20 or 30 need to get through to devestate the USA... a couple of dozen interceptor rockets that can barely hit a simple target over the pacific aren't really going to alter the final outcome much.

In any case as you say the Russian nuclear subs neatly bypass the Polish missiles anyway and the obvious shortest route for Russian missiles based in Siberia is over the North Pole and down through Canada.. nowhere near Poland.

may I suggest this item that contains many strange inconsistencies?



It seems a female al_Quaida scientist was or was not tortured for years at Bagram, but, picked up by four FBI and military officials received three bullets in her torso, etc., etc.

Do check it out and follow the story!.

#1 Has Israel invested more in Georgia than Russia has in England? Since when has investment been 'greed for other people property'?

If we're condeming arms deals then Israel would be in the uni-bond league compared to Premiership Russia... there isn't a war on earth that isn't fought with AK37's and barely a 3rd world country anywhere that doesn't have a collection of russian tanks, artillery and helicopters. Certainly every time Israel has been attacked in the past its been with Russian weapons.

Of course thats different because its not some paranoid zionist plot.......

thegangofone (#5) 'screwed up' suggests that anarchism in Iraq was never the plan (to ensure a permanent US presence next to Iran and between them and Israel), and that the present side-show in Georgia isn't another part of the strategy to encircle Iran whilst keeping her allie at bay. The neocon hawks have always been very clear about what their agenda is, and who their friends are, and are not.

NONE SO BLIND...

Peter_Sym (#8) The point is that we've all SEEN who Georgia uses those weapons against. That's why the Russians are angry. Furthermore, they're still more than a little annoyed about the role of the Jewish oligarchs and US advisors like Sachs in the democratic sell-off their planned-economy in the 1990s. Sometimes , not paranoid ideation. You must know where these non-doms choose to have their 'second' homes and so must surely appreciate why so many people despise their duplicitous behaviour? Or perhaps you admire it as 'enterprising'?

#10. Jean... has there ever been a war or disaster that you didn't think was caused by Jews?

And no we haven't all seen who Georgia uses these weapons against. So far I've HEARD a lot of allegations against Georgia. I've SEEN virtually no evidence one way or the other to support or debase the claims. I have SEEN russian aircraft shooting down Georgian drones, I've SEEN Russian aircraft bombing hospitals miles from S.Ossetia and I've SEEN russian tanks advancing on Tblisi.

What I haven't seen is tanks with blue six pointed stars or sinister looking men with big noses and ringlets, although doubtless you'll tell me where they're hiding.... and where we can buy the eternal Jew on DVD.

In summary Georgia's army is 99.9% equipped with Russian weapons, plus a handful of Israeli assault rifles for a commando unit. Not the 'billions' worth claimed.

Goose steppers know they are wasting their ranting on me. Absolutely no interest or sympathy at all. If Newsnight did a piece on ice cream there would be anti-Jewish posts. The kind of people who question whether the Holocaust happened are despicable liars.

----------------------------------------
Peter_Sym I agree a few interceptors don't change anything that much, except the strategic direction. The US knows Star Wars II (or whatever it is now) does not work.

So why build it?

But in a decade or two its a different picture. This then puts the Russians in the position of being vulnerable to a first strike from strategic weapons. Its a prototype.

If its not for Russia then why set the bases right on the borders of Russia as they intend hitting these rogue state missiles in space I believe? North Korea has now moved off the "Axis of Evil" list, Iran has no capability at this time the West believes.

A LIBERAL-DEMOGRAPHIC DISASTER

Just in case my recent points need , bear in mind it's happening here too, and that what one needs to bear in mind is national mean 'human capital' and its correlation with GDP.

It's naive 'liberalism', hedonism and worst of all, hopelessly ignorant (or malicious depending on how you see it) assumed equalitarianism which is driving this demographic disaster (for all concerned). Sadly, one self-interested, minority, group above all others, has been renowned for peddling these frankly subversive notions for decades and there's no telling them, they almost always 'argue', in spite of the evidence, as if argumenet made any difference.

Peter_Sym #11

Like you I have seen no evidence of who Georgia was using its weapons against. I've heard the same allegations as yourself but that's as far as it goes.

I have seen footage of Russian aircraft shooting down drones, I've seen footage of Russian aircraft dropping bombs and I've seen footage of Russian tanks on the road.

But I've no idea where it was all happening or even when. People tell me what they want me to believe.

We shall have to wait until some real evidence exists before we know. Fog of war at the moment with all concerned pleading their cases and contradicting one another. Too many civilians getting hurt, that seems to be the case but I've no real idea of who is hurting them.

TRYING TO EDUCATE THE UNEDUCABLE

Peter_Sym (#11) You appear to be confusing me with Mel Gibson, or the people who wrote the Hamas Covenant. I wouldn't look out for ringlets etc, they're Orthodox, just read the Israeli and US press on IDF advisors and arms companies, or the role of Soros and Jewish oligarchs in funding extra-Russia anti-Putin regimes in recent times (Boris brags about it), or look into to who the influential free-market economists have been and who the most ethusiastic backers of the USA's (AIPAC) are. Then again, you could look at any of the blogs in the USA since 2000. , the demographics of New York related to IQ distributions, and make sure you've read Walt and Mearsheimer's article.

As this obvious to almost everyone else, why is it not to you do you think?

STEALING CANDY FROM BABIES IS NOW GOOD?

thegangofone (#13) "If Newsnight did a piece on ice cream there would be anti-Jewish posts."

Did the Apprentice 'lollies' episode featuring Alan Sugar poclaiming make Newsnight?

Why is is that when Israel is mentioned, someone has to pipe up and mention the holocaust?

Perhaps it is time that we mention the ethnic-cleansing that Israel is carrying out in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

#11 PeterSym;

So, you have SEEN the conflict first hand have you? Are you in Gori or Tshkvali, or have you simply watched edited news feeds which may only show one side of a story?

Only fools or the gullible watch TV news with its nicely packaged film clips and accept it as the total truth.

JadeJean (3)

It's not for the want of trying. We have an interview request in for the Ambassador to speak to us any day next week.

So far we haven't had a response. Though Chinese officials have been more forthcoming with interviews in the run up to the games, it still remains difficult to persuade them onto the programme. But we're trying !

Neil.
Producer.

#1, #16

Well documented.

The standard response is (1) ad-hominemism (2) the Yeshiva exercise ("nothing is provable").

Is Israel, the attitudes are religio/ethnic and now frenetic, due to what is called "the demographic problem".

Ethnic cleansing is used on "them"
and in vitro fertilization, even for single women, is tax paid for "us".

#7

I sincerely hope the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ looks into this:



It is a very strage set of circumstances!

Perhaps Britain is also involved?

FIREWORKS AND ILLUSIONS

The Beijing games? No! This thread!
An excellent illustration of how the (seemingly) aware and articulate can be brought to the partisan-boil.
What a wonderful illustration of the folly of universal suffrage for general elections, where the (contrasting) puzzled masses are manipulated by sound and fury signifying nothing!
Now that the slots for (falsely accused) Zoinist, Holocaust Denier and 'Them' Repatriator have been taken, I respectfully apply for the position of falsely accused (and - incidentally - carelessly designated) Homophobe. I remain SIR: your disobedient and un-p.c. savant . . .

Here's what looks like a reasonably/relatively balanced *. I'd be grateful for any other links - particularly if they weren't relying on Russia Today...

* particularly 'Innocent victims of war' and 'Casualty Numbers Unclear' sections

NN look into the evidence used in Policy Exchange report on muslims has resulted in PE being faced by legal action for for accusing British mosques of distributing extremist literature.

@ Neil_Breakwell

After reading the posts above yours - #20 - I am not surprised that you chose that particular comment to comment on - JadeJean #3.
You obviously can't pass personal comment on the situation in Georgia in this blog - apart from what you are allowed to say of course. It must be very frustrating for you Neil - having to balance your conscience with your future promotion prospects.

The fact that Georgia attacked the civilian population of South Ossetia - in the middle of the night - is an indisputable fact.

It is 'such a pity' that Newsnight refuses to mention this, thereby misleading the whole country.

'nough said.....

thegangofone (#13) "Goose steppers know they are wasting their ranting on me. Absolutely no interest or sympathy at all."

From the above, is one to conclude that you only listen to those who already share your views? If so, why would you expect others with different points of view to listen to you? Surely looking for others who just echo what one already believes teaches one nothing?

Is that why you (solipsistically no doubt) chose to call yourself the 'thegangofone'?

#26 wanabee07 - I don't like defending other people's turf, but that's a bit harsh. NN's first report on the subject (08Aug08, starts 17m14s in, should be available until tonight?) clearly stated that Georgia attacked first and went on to question the wisdom of such a move.

Tonight's Newsnight email posted at 17.55 doesn't have a blog attachment.
I assume it's just an oversight.

#28 Cloe_F - My comments were not meant to cause offense to Nick or anyone else for that matter.
However, if the facts in Nick's report on 08 Aug 08 are true - which I believe they are - then why are the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ News team still 'banging on' about Russia being the aggressor in all this?

Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Editorial Guidelines

"we strive to reflect a wide range of opinion and explore a range and conflict of views so that no significant strand of thought is knowingly unreflected or under represented."

Come on Newsnight/Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ, put your money where your mouth is....

BTW, I have been watching Newsnight for years and have - until quite recently - admired the teams work very much.
However, after this I think I may just stick to getting my news from various news sources on the internet, thereby enabling me make up my own mind about what is going on in the World.

No offense meant.

steve mclaren seems to be demonstrating a form of Accent chameleoning. it seems many people start talking to people in their own accents often within 30 minutes. a curious human practice that must link into something deep within how people interact.

Accent chameleoning seems a trait of INTJ , INTP personality types?

Not sure what else has been said about Israeli involvement, but apparently, Saakashvilli reckons Israel has in its hands on both war and peace for Georgia -

To a reporter's question about Jews who have fled the fighting and come to Israel, he said: "We have two Israeli cabinet ministers, one deals with war [Defense Minister David Kezerashvili], and the other with negotiations [State Minister for Territorial Integration Temur Yakobashvili], and that is the Israeli involvement here: Both war and peace are in the hands of Israeli Jews."

Article found at Haaretz.com

bookhimdano (#31) Myers-Briggs is pseudo-scientific nonsense.

#13. Looking at a map it would seem the US's story makes good sense. An anti-missile missile based in Southern or Eastern europe would get a head-on shot at a missile coming in from Iran towards Europe which from a technological point of view is a far easier shot than the side-on shot a polish based missile trying to hit a Russian nuke heading towards the US would have to achieve.

Russia has already been vunerable to a first strike weapon for 20 years: its called Trident. Trident is a small nuke accurate to 20-odd metres specifically designed for taking out silos etc (and there's no point nuking empty silos).

The US anti-missile system isn't a prototype- its a dead end. It could take out an Iranian missile with a single clunky warhead but hitting little russian warheads with a projectile is never going to work. The US would need lasers for that (multiple shots a second, travelling effectively the speed of light so no deflection). Frankly the russians should be grateful the US is wasting its money on this and not a system that may really work.

#19 please read my post #11 "And no we haven't all seen who Georgia uses these weapons against. So far I've HEARD a lot of allegations against Georgia. I've SEEN virtually no evidence one way or the other to support or debase the claims."

That should surely answer your allegations that I just accept news reports unquestioningly.

I will point out that I served in a medium armoured recon unit for a number of years though and can identify sub-types of Russian armour better than most Russian soldiers can. I'm not bad at working out units from divisional markings either as I was trained to lie in a small hole in East Germany while the red army rolled over me and work out precisely who was rolling where. If some of these news reports are faked then the fakers are going to amazing lengths to do so.