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Science Chatroom with Simon Singh on the subject of Search Engines |
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The Material World on 24 October 2002 was followed by a science chatroom on the subject of Search Engines. Simon Singh was joined by Professor Mike Jackson from the Search Engine Evaluation and Development Group at Wolverhampton University and Professor Stephen Robertson from Microsoft Research Laboratory, Cambridge, to discuss how they were invented, how they work, and what the future holds for the programs that effectively control our access to the web. Read the full transcript below.
You can also listen again to the programme.
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Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci Welcome to today's Science Chatroom with guests from Radio 4's The Material World.
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci Presenter Simon Singh is an author and broadcaster who's perhaps best known for his work on programmes like 'Fermat's Last Theorem'. He's also written extensively about codes and code-breaking, including the work of mathematicians at Bletchley Park who cracked the Enigma code during World War Two.
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci Simon will be with us shortly - he's got to get here from the studio.
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci Until Simon gets here, you have me - and each other - to talk to :)
PeterRoche That was an interesting discussion on search engines
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci What's your search engine of choice? And why?
thanatos Google - the Google bar is too easy to use
PeterRoche However I was intrigued by the example of Google and metatags
phase I'm not too keen on browser add-ons
MR So what exactly has science got to do with net search engines?
torlguy Why do Google and others include pages with unacceptable content?
phase They provide an uncensored search facility
PeterRoche I believe they are tightening up on content
thanatos Unacceptable is a matter for culture
MR Torlguy: I guess unacceptable content is not unacceptable by everyone...
torlguy I understand that, but surely there has to be some moral and legal consideration?
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci How satisfied are you that your search engines are indeed uncensored?
PeterRoche They are making choices after pressure has been brought against them?
phase Google has a 'moderate safe-search' tool
angus I don't understand why China 'banned' Google - for a while or how?
kara I read today that Google has been censoring nazi and white supremists websites
torlguy The content is one of the things that makes people anti-technology
uranusalien China banned Google, and I belive Google is accused of running a monopoly.
PeterRoche They banned it from known ISP's and proxy servers
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci There are legal issues of course to what search engines can link to
BJ I am developing a web site for a local charity - how do I get it noticed?
Agilent_Mat BJ: you need to goto a special website that registers you with all the search engines
phase China banned Google but not Yahoo which uses the Google technology
think Google is currently being sued by SearchKing for downgrading their ratings
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci The Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ search also uses Google technology, by the way :)
phase The best as always
PeterRoche There was a ban on AltaVista for a while also but that has been lifted now also
wellbread But which country should decide what should or should not be listed on a search engine that can be accessed worldwide?
wellbread For example, if our only portals available were those based in Islamic countries!
angus I heard that China aims to be the leading nation in science by 2010 - is that true, does it relate?
PeterRoche You ran into some accusations of bias with the Google use on the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ did you not?
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci Simon's just arrived - I'll get him sat down and typing as soon as I can
think No special website can register you with the search engines - that is fraudulent - search engines won't accept registrations except from people filling in the forms on their sites
PeterRoche what is your opinion on the bias? Mr Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci
Agilent_Mat That's wrong. I will find out the site name. When I registered with Lycos and wrote my webpage, it registered me with a handful of engines
wellbread It seems to me that Yahoo and Google are the same (interface, the addreess of a Yahoo search included Google in the title), but also the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ one
wellbread Are they all based on one common knowledgebase?
SimonSingh Hello Simon here - we only have one keyboard so I will also be typing for Mike and Steve.
aberbotimue Google are the engine that power many others
phase The same underlying engine is the same
PeterRoche Hello there Simon
Mithras Where in the world are these 'farmer' mainframes that Yahoo/Google use PHYSICALLY located?
torlguy What about C4 total search?
aberbotimue As part of their branding, Google state that some engines have to have them left in the url..
fortynine The main problem with search engines is not so much bias but incompleteness, although the process can be managed so as to favour certain sites. No search engine comes anywhere near completeness in coverage of Web pages and, given the growth of pages, are not likely to.
MR Torlguy: Don't even bother with C4 mate.
PeterRoche C4 is a meta search engine like Mamma
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci Mike Jackson is also here - he's a researcher from the Open University
wellbread Who actually finds the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Search useful? It may be advert free, but its layout is like something from 1997!!
torlguy Why's that?
Jo It would be good to know more ways to access many search engines at once - could Mr Singh comment please?
torlguy Please explain
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci Stephen Robertson is a text retrieval researcher for Microsoft, based in Cambridge here in the UK
SimonSingh Mike says use a meta search engine like dogpile.com for accessing many search engines
Agilent_Mat When you said computer farms, did you mean Computer clusters? parrallel processing?
PeterRoche C4, Mamma, or excite.com
MR Torlguy: C4's website has been undergoing redevelopment for months now, and still nothing has updated. I think the company has gone bust or something.
Mithras Yeah
phase I think he meant clusters
torlguy Ok thanks
SimonSingh Are there any questions for Mike or Steve?
phase Here: I have heard that Tim Beners-Lee is in the process of creating a new indexing technology. How does this differ from meta tags?
thanatos Will some sort of XML classification system fly?
torlguy I still think search engines have an obligation to exclude certain porn and related sites
torlguy No?
PeterRoche I would be interested your idea of the future of search other than voice. Are we talking about computer profile Microsoft Passport for example? Or paid or search where one fills in a profile first?
SimonSingh Mike says you may be referring resource description framework...
tbeard Where will "the semantic web" fit into the picture?
aberbotimue Why would the remembering your sort of searches slow the search down so badly?
Agilent_Mat Question for Mike or Steve. Can the search engines, find out newly registered sites, and add them automatically?
phase The semantic web yes
Mithras What kind of next generation research are you doing i.e. 'post-***' stuff?
SimonSingh... which allows you to have more info about pages put in the page builder or automatically.
MR Agilent Mat: Yes they can....
think Resource description format or RDF is for software-software comms, could be used to do searching, but would need another layer of XML on top
wellbread Mike - do you think that the general public need to become more aware of how to use a search engine? My Mum always does something like writing out a properly formed question for something like Google (Ask is a bit confusing for her!)
SimonSingh Steve at Microsoft says that they are .... working on 'relevance feedback' which allows the user to give examples of the kind of thing they would like to see
think Technology doesn't solve the problem of people lying to their technology about their contents
Stevechik On your programme why did you not mention boolean search techniques?
Mithras How are the search engines funded? It can't all be off banner ads!
SimonSingh Steve developed probabilistic relevance scoring, which is a foundation for some sarch engines.
MR There are so many search engines and they all work differently - it would be impossible to teach people how to use them
jrsm Telling them not to enter full urls into the search box would be a start ;)
SteveTurner I have a new business website, but when saerching for it through Google I cannot find it. what do I have to do to make it come up on a search?
think Search engines are having problems with cash - advertising isn't working - that's why there's less every year
MR Mithras: good question, most search engines don't cost much to run. just a server and some webspace....Most don't require many humans to work them.
SimonSingh Mike says, research shows that not many people use boolean terms when seraching, they tend to use 2 or 3 unrelated words
aberbotimue Mithras, they make money from having a bias put on some links, or marked as sponsors...
MR Apart from banner ads they also include sponsord links, and many engines are owned by bigger companies who can afford to let them run.
think SteveTurner - register with Google yourself
SimonSingh Mike: says that a good research topic would be to find an easy way to allow people to phrase boolean queries easily.
fortynine Question for both: the 'persistence' problem with Web sites seems to be a major problem - pages disappear on average, I believe, in less than two years. Sometimes the Google cache is the only place to find a page. Apart from such caching, or national archiving, are there search strategies that might be implemented to re-locate pages that have simply moved, rather than died?
Stevechik Also all the most important search engines do read the meta tags in each page. I should know I make a living out of it!
MR Also, many search engines 'sell' their technologies to other companies. such as Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ, which uses the Google technology.
don A search engine presented with three or four words to be included on a page will come up with 1000's of pages in a few seconds. Can you give us an idea of the structure of the indices that allow it to do this?
phase Wait until the bots have searched the web again
Stevechik Know!
torlguy Ok
jrsm You need to submit it to each one individually Steve
think Steve - you have to register with each in turn, and most (except Google) want to be paid for it
itsakoo Google doesn't read meta tags...
torlguy not og**** ?
Mithras How much does this technology cost in hard $?
thanatos No sorry
MR You cannot add your website to Google. there is no sign up form.
torlguy can someone please explain meta tags?
jrsm how long is a piece of string?
MR Mithras: Usually very little.
SimonSingh Somebody asked about the persistence problem - i.e. how do you solve the problem of pages disappearing?
Stevechik AlltheWeb/Fast is probably a better search engine
jrsm They are 'hidden' in the html and dictate the contents of the page
MR Simong: Simply, you cant.
aberbotimue You can go download an open source version of a search engine...
think SteveTurner - just looked at your site - you need to dump the frames, search engines hate them
Stevechik You can add your site to Google easily
aberbotimue So you can set one up for free..
jrsm Sorry not dictate. Indicate. Metatags, that is
PeterRoche it was a funny example with Google and meta's and fast doesn't add much credence to them metas that is
Kim you can add your site to Google!
MR Steve: and how's that.
aberbotimue But the servers behind it, and the maintenance would be too much as a hobby
SimonSingh Mike says there was a paper at the WWW conference in Toronto a couple of years ago, but there must be more recent stuff out there too. In fact Mike has one on his desk at work, but that is not much use.
Goldie What about Muscat and contextual searching?
ericaceous How do the panel feel about the privacy issue? Is this an unsurmountable barrier to providing the context based information that the engines need to give more relevant results...
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci Torlguy - here's metatags explained...
SimonSingh A Meta Tag is info provided on the page that does not appear on the page, but helps the search engine.
think SteveTurner - your site is pure Flash - search engines can't read Flash - you need to replace it with text
davidgb Are there any search engines which allow combining two searches or the use of Boolean logic phrases?
think ST - I'm afraid with frames and Flash your site is search engine invisible
MR Yes, ***.metasearch.com for example.
SimonSingh So on my home page (www.simonsingh.net) you will find meta tags like mathematics engima codes Fermat and so on.
Stevechik The key thing is to come in the top thirty results as statistics show 98% of surfers confine themselves to this.
phase You could make two sites: text (HTML) & Flash
torlguy So the meta tag info is what the search engine actually indexes?
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci The next Science chatroom in conjunction with The Material World will be on November 7th.
PeterRoche Do the search engines use AI with contextual click through learning from Caches and searches or is that next Wolverhampton AC?
Stevechik You can get round the problem of Flash and frame based sites quite easily.
kara Torlguy - the search engines look at text on your page, they don't give much weight to meta-tags anymore: too easy to spam
SimonSingh Steve at Microsoft says that the bad pages for search engines are pages generated by databases, because they are tailor-made each time.
Stevechik Search engines don't just index meta tags some even don't
spottyspaniel If I am putting a site on the web, how do i ensure that the maximum number of people find it, The page is of a virtual secretary.
torlguy So they were like keywords, open to abuse, porn etc?
Barry How do web crawlers find new web pages?
SimonSingh Since Flash pages are generally visual, and not textual, then Mike thinks that it will be a long time before anyboady cracks the problem of finding Flash pages
SimonSingh The only way to find Flash pages is if the builder gives appropriate metatags
torlguy How much bandwidth does Google need?
think Spotty - Inktomi + Google will give max coverage for minimum price
kara Torlguy: anything that's not visible to people is not weighted as much by the search engines, as easy to spam
torlguy How much server space to index 2.5 Billion pages?
Stevechik Spotty you need to make sure that it is optimised to achieve a high ranking for the keywords and phrases you want it to rank highly for
think Spotty - to get FULL coverage costs about Β£1,500 in registration fees
aberbotimue That's an interesting question, does anyone know how much bandwidth Google uses?
SimonSingh Google needs very little bandwith for user communication, but it probably has a lot of bandwitch for communciation with its own machines.
think I heard Google is 10,000 computers in 3 locations
Stevechik It is not such a big problem to find Flash pages - it only requires a little ingenuity Simon!
PeterRoche Dear Mr Singh where do the experts think search is going to go next?
phase They probably have base1000 for inter-process communications
SimonSingh Server space for 2.5 billion pages would be 1.5 times the spaces the combined orginal data, using very good compression.
ericaceous Flash MX has been specifically extend to make Flash pages more visible to search engines. Google ARE begining to index Flash content, by extracting the text parts from the binary files...
greg I am currently writing an extended essay on search engines and have been focusing on how they have benefitted the user and busineses
Mithras In the radio show you mention 'Internet CVs' that your browser would carry may be hard to compress relevent info: why not make them like character sheets/setups in RPGs? That's one way of expressing personal data that's less like a bureacratic nightmare.
SimonSingh Coupling searach engines with strong AI would be the future.
jrsm Yes
greg Does anyone have any experience of how they have benfitted their business?
SimonSingh Developing search engines is hard
Stevechik It's easy to come top in the search engines for any site if you know how!
SimonSingh Developing AI is hard
jrsm Lol
SimonSingh Coupling the two will be hard squared
MR A great manual indexed search engine would be good.
think Greg - we have run a teaching site purely off search engine referrals for 6 years - no other form of sales
MR Hard work but it would stop rubbish sites entering.
torlguy How do sponsored sites on Google always appear on top?
phase Eventually search engines wouldn't exist surely. If AI progressed enough
jrsm They pay torlguy
thanatos About.com is pretty good MR
MR Torlguy: Just the way that they are added.
greg That's brilliant - could you tell me the URL?
Kim They are paid for
torlguy I know, but how does it work?
MR What is AI?
SimonSingh Some sites do pay to be on Google - so be wary of the top hits
PeterRoche Sorry, Simon. What was the last one? Will the search engines learn iteratively from contextual searches and clickthrough?
jrsm MR: AI stands for Artificial Intelligence, innit
torlguy Please!
kara torlguy: you sign up from the Google site
aberbotimue They bid for the top position on Google...
SimonSingh You can find out at Google, because Google is honest enough to mark such paid for listings
jrsm They simply skip the index - they are hard coded with certain words
PeterRoche Yes please Steve
SimonSingh But you don't need to pay to be on Google
jrsm And if those words are used they are pulled in as sponsored links. ok?
MR How exactly do u get listed on Google.
Stevechik Dead easy
think MR - just fill in their form
SimonSingh Mike's favorite search engine other than Google is Yahoo because he likes the directory structure
torlguy So, if i set up a site, how do i get on Google?
jrsm You can use adwords
kara MR: get someone else who is in Google to link to your site
jrsm Their new paid for service
greg Thanks
SimonSingh Steve's fave is Google and is reluctant to promote any other engine.
MR Oh yes, it's Yahoo that is hard to get listed on isnt it.
kara MR: Yahoo you pay for
greg Yahoo's good because it is a hybrid search engine
MR You can get listed on Yahoo for free, but that's only if they pick you.
phase What about astalavista.box.sk
spottyspaniel Do you have to pay to register sites with search engines?
SimonSingh If you want to get on Google, then you can tell them. there is option somethere on their homepage, but it might take them a while to index you.
torlguy Thanks
greg But they have just reneweed a contract with Google
aberbotimue So Simon, since the time taken to process the sponsors and put them to the top, surely having the engine read a cookie, and bias your results to the enigma CODE, rather than the band would not take up too much speed?
kara Spotty: most indexes these days make you pay
jrsm ;)
PeterRoche Simon Singh days Inktomi's numbered with Micorsoft?
torlguy Whats the cost?
SimonSingh I am just going to ask Mike and Steve their advice for people who want to promote their small homepages, cheaply and effectively.
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci The next Science chatroom in conjunction with The Material World will be on November 7th. Celebrate the clocks going back with a discussion of body clocks and circadian rhythms - are you an early riser or a bedhead?
jrsm What for adwords?
torlguy Or Google?
jrsm Well check it out
kara torlguy: Yahoo Β£199 for a year
chrisjboys Any comments on Autonomy which claims to be more than a search engine?
jrsm Go there and click the adwords link
torlguy Thanks
jrsm That's ok
greg Is Autonomy the future of search engines?
jrsm Choose your keywords first
SimonSingh Mike says that search engines are not the only answer to getting people to your site. Get people to link to you, offer reciprocal links, and get the word out. Then the crawlers will rate you and you will get high up on the search engines too.
aberbotimue Autonomy is still suffering with huge databases
jrsm You can set a budget for what your daily spend will be
Stevechik AlltheWeb more likely the future
phase Webrings have a similar effect
greg If not what is the future of search engines?
greg Will Google always be free?
jrsm That is correct Simon. The best way is to link your site from the natural hubs
PeterRoche Well Autonomy has it's own classification system so it isn't perfect and it's distribution is not high
torlguy Natural hubs?
think Greg - there have been rumours all year about Google switching to a charging model
jrsm Natural hubs. yes
Stevechik Alltheweb already has the world largest database of pages and indexes faster the Google. I should know I submit sites everyday
torlguy Please explain
greg I cannot understand, other than sponsored links and clickthrus, how search engines can make money?
kara Link popularity is hugely important to your search engine ranking
SimonSingh What is autonomy - it is a very early intelligent agent which a lot of people say will be important for the semantic web, which is where we have pages constructed out of XML.
jrsm Places where people gravitate naturally
greg I know they sell their indexes like altavista did to reuters
jrsm According to mutual interests
think Greg - they're not profitable
greg But are there any other ways that search engines can make money?
Stevechik Dead easy to make money from coming top in the search engines
PeterRoche Exactly my point Simon about Autonomy
think Greg - there were over 22 majors 2 years ago, now there's 4-5
greg Yeah
kara Selling enterprise solutions to companies makes search engines money
SimonSingh I am asking M and S about whether good search engines will start to charge us.
greg But not for the search engines to make
Stevechik Coming top makes money
Mark What has happened to dejanews, does Google maintain all articles ever written?
kara Mark: that's what they say
phase Maybe subscriptions to engines for searching will be introduced
SimonSingh M says that may start to charge for special services, so they will always have a free service to encourage people to come on board but they they will make even more money by selling services like super dooper search facilities.
Kim There are rumours that Google are starting up a new service where you have to pay to search/use it. I've only heard little on it....
aberbotimue If the engines start charging, then they will stop getting ALL pages on them, and suddenly they are only useful to find commercial sites
kara Google has mentioned a subscription model
greg That's an idea
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci Is there a market for a truly independent, non-commercial search engine?
phase Yes
ian Yes
think aber - almost all search engines DO charge
aberbotimue No
kara That's how Google go popular
Kim No
jrsm Well what do you mean a market for?
chrisjboys Semantic web? What exactly does that mean?
aberbotimue But they also let you put things in for free.
jrsm Clever
torlguy What about the bbc having an fp engine?
torlguy Not for profit
Kim Can you get me listed on 1000 search engines Steve
think Semantic web is a system whereby links etc are based on more complex factors than simply page 2 page
Kim Top 10...on all
Stevechik no need to be listed on 1000's the top twenty get 90% of the traffic
SimonSingh Semantic web is the next generation of the web - as viewed by the www consortium - it will be better because it will have more meaning to the metatages on your pages and you can even design your own tags.
abar I recommend using Copernic for searches as it searches a number of engines simultaneous and then refines the list
jrsm Simon what is your url did you say?
think Check out W3C's site for more details on semantic web - it's their initiative
aberbotimue 1000 search engines isn't the key, the top 10 search engines are used by 95 % of internet users, or similar figures...
SimonSingh www.simonsingh.net
jrsm Cheers
PeterRoche Do the panel believe Inktomi is up against the wall, esp if MSN drop it?
torlguy Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔi - what about a Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ engine?
SimonSingh I am just asking the guys about the biggest misconception about SEs.
Kim Does anyone think inktomi is near death yet...
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔi's search is a UK-focussed, family friendly version of Google
torlguy any plans to expand?
Stevechik I don't think it is near death - Inktomi that is
jrsm Nice front page..
SimonSingh Mike thinks that most people think that SEs are all-knowning, in fact know about 15% of the sites currently in existence, but not the same 15% all the time.
torlguy Spread the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ word. haha
PeterRoche Does it have a bias towards Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ content, Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci?
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci It is editorially independent (no one can buy a higher listing) but arguably it's very much 'establishment'.
itsakoo If Inktomi lose MSN they're dead
greg Also search engines are always out of date
greg Because of the time that it takes for the cralwer to update the index
torlguy Maybe you should look again at the coverage
SimonSingh Steve thinks Inktomi is fairly healthy, beause some companies use it as a backend (MSN offer search engines that fall through to Inktomi's engine).
kara Not many big engines use inktomi anymore, Google is taking over
PeterRoche Aren't they struggling on the Enterprise front also though Inktomi that is
Mithras Where can you get the inside track on Google as a company online?
torlguy Who runs Google?
aberbotimue Do a search on Google for Google..
Stevechik I agree with Steve re-Inktomi I get good reults with MSN by using Inktomi paid submissions service and would recommend it to everyone
think Out of curiosity - how many people here are search engine specialists?
Kim Lol
aberbotimue Even funnier, do a search on Yahoo, for Google
Stevechik I am
Kim lmao
PeterRoche Lol
greg Larry Page
torlguy Not me, surprise. haha
kara Lol
greg and Sergey Berin
phase Me neither
SimonSingh Sci FI - James Blish novel contains a librarian - according to Steve this seems to be one of the first uses of search engines wthin a novel.
angus Not me
Kim You're not are you steve
aberbotimue Guilty as charged
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci General info...
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci The next Science chatroom in conjunction with The Material World will be on November 7th. Celebrate the clocks going back with a discussion of body clocks and circadian rhythms - are you an early riser or a bedhead?
jrsm Lol
thanatos The most telling seach on Google is the word 'the'
torlguy Why?
jrsm Cos people keep typing it?
jrsm That's not too telling is it thanatos?
think Try search for "IT services" in Google - it drops the "IT"
greg Because 'the' is a stop word
thanatos 'The' is a very common word so it gives the top rankings Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔi is about 13
greg In theory it should produce no results
SimonSingh Mike says try 'the' as a phrase query
Leo_CTU Type "IT services" in quotes and it shouldn't exclude the IT
thanatos Ol
SimonSingh Classic information retireval was also based on the premise of removing stop words like The Of And
greg If IT is in caps
greg Would be ok
Leo_CTU Google isn't case sensitive
PeterRoche Simon do the team think that voice search is not ready yes because there is only discrete and not continuous language recognition yet?
SimonSingh Google is case sensitive according to Mike
aberbotimue Google is case sensative
think There IS continuous language recognition - its a standard in Office now
aberbotimue If you use case, it will be specific for that case
SimonSingh yes, language recognition is a huge stumbling block, and would only add to confusion - Bali Barley?
Kim In search engines... Think. Not in office
think Problem is accents, not discrete words
jrsm Ok ok
Kim no.....VOIP
SimonSingh On the other hand that there are engines that can search from spoken documents like Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ boradcasts, because the document broadcast is longer and redundant so there is more error toleration.
jrsm Is that true simon? can you explain further?
PeterRoche I heard Cambridge with Microsoft were working on language recognition and accents
jrsm Oh because they speak more clearly etc
torlguy Yep
SimonSingh You can run speech recognition on Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ broadcast programmes and then index that and search on it - and because Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ English is so standard it works reasonably well.
PeterRoche As a matter of interest are the people here who are not SEO specialists confused by the ones who seem to be
jrsm I getcha
thanatos Filtering content by accents sounds a very British thing?
phase Even local programmes have clear english
jrsm Received Pronunciation don't y'know
Jolliness Mr Singh would you tell us more about your current interests as well as voice recognition?
SimonSingh Microsoft in Cambridge are doing lots of stuff, but Steve thinks that this research is not happenign in Cambridge.
jrsm Who is leading in VR simon?
jrsm In your opinion?
greg Everyone seems to be talking about voice recognition - so is this future?
phase IBM?
aberbotimue There is a lot of speech recognition in search happening at stirling Uni...
SimonSingh I am currently interested in teaching and whether Estelle Morris's departure will make things worse... but I don't think that this is too relevant for today's topic.
jrsm Pretty much greg..
sam Hi room where would you recommend for the easiest to understand SEO guidlines
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci The next Science chatroom in conjunction with The Material World will be on November 7th. Celebrate the clocks going back with a discussion of body clocks and circadian rhythms - are you an early riser or a bedhead?
Kim Searchenginewatch.com.......
jrsm There was some interesting stuff on that earlier sam
Kim Totally independent advice
SimonSingh SEO guidelines - how about www.searchenginewatch.com - also recommended by Mike.
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci Five minutes to go with Simon, Mike and Stephen...
chrisjboys If I want people to find my stuff, the best I can do is use appropriate meta tags/keywords? Is there a difference?
greg I thought that Autonomy was the future?
PeterRoche I don't think Speech is the future it is the contextual accuracy which will be, you want accurate results with an in car guidance search engine for example
greg I agree
jrsm Nobody knows the future. we are all making it as we go along.
greg I dont see the importance of VR yet
SimonSingh Answer to Chris - keywords are a kind of metatags, but some search engines (incl Google) do not use them.
phase What ever happened to directory pages?
thanatos I do see VR on mobiles one day
chrisjboys Thanks Simon
SimonSingh I asked the guys about Ask Jeeves?
aberbotimue Yahoo, is a directory...
aberbotimue Dmoz
Mithras What do Google use instead of metatags?
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci I heard that many engines look for tags like 'strong' and 'em' which is why they are preferable to 'b' and 'i'. Is this true?
sam Thanks
greg Google ranks a site based on the importance of the sites that link to it
phase Just text
aberbotimue They index all the words on the page.
Leo_CTU Google pays quite a lot of attention to the title tag
aberbotimue Rather than the metatags
PeterRoche There will be a greater acceptance of Dublin Core code but it will take time and probably more so in vertical portals
SimonSingh They said that Ask Jeeves is very very primitive - there is much better stuff in research which we will be able to use in 3 to 5 years.
Kim There arent any magic tags that'll do wonders for your site?
Leo_CTU Google also uses how many times a site is linked to from other pages
Mithras How do Google judge the 'importance' of a site?
jrsm Yes that is true, leo
ian What about streaming live video on the net from Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ News 24?
sam Is the title tag different to the page title
Kim You just got to make sure that all the content on your site is relevant and focused
SimonSingh Dublin Core - Mike says that there are lots of enthustiasts but in a very narrow field - they are mainly librarians.
jrsm The more sites that link to you the more Google loves you
greg By the importance of the sites that link to it
Leo_CTU Not the same thing, Sam
ian What about streaming live video on the net from Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ News 24?
sam Thanks
greg If the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ homepage linked to my site and the MSN homepage linked to it aswell Google would value it
SimonSingh I asked the guys about China banning Google?
Mithras 'important' like in the Gibson cyberspace sense?
phase Do you think search engines will be able to recognise text and sound from media files on the web eventually?
ian Freedom of speech issue with the China debate!
SimonSingh They said China can practically block it because they have control over all the incoming and outgoing links.
Kim They counteracted it with elgoog.com
jrsm That's not terribly easy to control i'd imagine...
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci Couple of minutes more today. Simon and people have to go. Back in two weeks from 5-6pm
greg That's becasue of the "evil dictator Jiang Zemin"
Leo_CTU Greg yes, but especially if the pages that link to yours are about a similar subject, i think
PeterRoche There is interest in Corporate intranet cataloguing Simon, but yes, I agree that walled gardens and vertical walled gardens will benefit most at the outset
SimonSingh Unfortunately we have to go now.
Kim Ok bye
ian Ok
jrsm Bye bye
thanatos Phase CCS2 has speech capability
greg Thanks everyone
jrsm And cheers
Jolliness Thank you
greg Bye
think Bye
Kim Clap
ian Bye
torlguy Very informative, thanks
SimonSingh Thanks for logging in and joining us.
chrisjboys Bye
Leo_CTU Cheerio
SimonSingh Tune in to Quentin next week and find about the geese
sam Good show
Mark Bye
thanatos Bye & thanks
PeterRoche Thank you, bye
jrsm Nice one simon
sam Thanks
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci The next Science chatroom in conjunction with The Material World will be on November 7th. Celebrate the clocks going back with a discussion of body clocks and circadian rhythms - are you an early riser or a bedhead?
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci That's about it for today. Thanks for logging in and thanks to to our three guests, Simon Singh, Mike Jackson and Stephen Robertson.
Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔiSci More in a fortnight. From 4.30pm on Radio 4 (you can listen online or on good old FM/LW) and then from 5pm here in the Science Chatroom. See you next time?
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