Richard Turnbull on the demographics of hell
Richard Turnbull, the embattled principal of the Anglican evangelical training school , is in the news again. Stephen Bates has a piece in under the headline "Theologian damns most Britons to hell". He reports comments from Dr Turnbull's speech given last October to the annual conference of Reform, a conservative evangelical pressure group within the Church of England. A video of that speech is available . Money quote:
We are committed to bringing the gospel message of Jesus Christ to those who don't know [him] and in this land that's 95% of the people: 95% of people facing hell unless the message of the gospel is brought to them.
Dr Turnbull speaks about the strategic importance of evangelical control of theological colleges, and the need to "capture" those colleges -- comments which assume new interest given his He also takes some time to explore the meaning of "evangelical identity", prompted, it seems, by concerns about a degree of drift in the meaning of the term "evangelical". One of evangelicalism's defining doctrines, he argues, is "substitutionary atonement", a view of the cross that has been increasingly dividing evangelicals in Great Britain. Perhaps Dr Turnbull has been noticing some of that semantic drift amongst his staff at Wycliffe, since he warns his audience of the need to be aware of liberalism "in our own midst". I wonder if his colleagues at Wycliffe Hall are comfortable with the claim that ninety-five per cent of the British population is destined for hell. Who's included in that figure? Even granting that hell exists, how would one arrive at an estimate like that?
Meanwhile, the Church Society's News Service claims the reports in the Guardian on Dr Turnbull. Nevertheless, Stephen's articles give all appearance of being well-sourced reports.
Update: Stephen Bates has more on the Wycliffe Hall debacle . He writes:
"Dr Turnbull may be a much misunderstood man manager. He may be tackling a disgruntled workforce. But in such circumstances and in his current position as head of a theological college with a distinguished tradition, it was surely ill-advised and maladroit of him to sign last Decemberβs much criticised Covenant for the Church of England, with its sectarianism and obduracy towards those within the church with whom it disagrees.
"Whether his appointment as vice-principal of the Rev Simon Vibert, a man who has co-written a Latimer Trust paper arguing that a woman should not teach men about faith or lead a congregation, will lead to further difficulties remains to be seen. Such gestures do tend to breed insecurity and destabilise an institution β unless that is you are a conservative who believes that other evangelicals are in fundamental error and accordingly of no account. In all this, is Wycliffe Hall a microcosym for the Church of England over the next few years?"
Comments
"Even granting that hell exists..."
Is that the burning issue here?
Believing in hell in the 21st century? I can't take the idea serously and any purported scholar trying to defend it has no credibility.
Watched the video: he's not an impressive communicator. Badly spken and doesn't sound bright for a "principal" of a college.
He's not up to it intellectually.
I begin to see why his staff are walking ...
There is no logic to define heaven and hell. Both exist.
"Who's included in that figure? Even granting that hell exists, how would one arrive at an estimate like that?"
Assuming traditional evangelical orthodoxy, hell includes everyone who hasn't prayed the sinner's prayer and, in addition, those who have prayed the sinner's prayer but are backslidden (= not attending church). Thus by looking at evangelical church attendance figures, one may be able to come to an agreement on roughly how many people are destined for the Pit. The only problems with this are:
1) No sinner's prayer is mentioned in the bible. They made it up.
2) There's no absolutely clear connection made between 'hell' and salvation by faith in the bible. (Annhilation seems a more likely conclusion to draw from some verses, including this one....)
3) "Whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." This famous verse would guarantee eternal life for those who believe. But it says nothing about what happens to those who do not believe. It doesn't follow from "Whoever believes in him shall .... have eternal life" that "Whoever does not believe in him shall .... go straight to the fiery pit of death." Perhaps those who do not believe can have eternal life by some other means? Perhaps they simply cease to exist, which would be a more logical way to read the verse (what is granted by life is existence; death - or lack of life - is the opposite concept, rather than hell).
4) What part of Jesus' sacrifice for the sins of the whole world relies upon the condition of belief for salvation from hell? If the atonement occurred, it occurred regardless of what anyone believes about it, surely?
5) If 95 percent of the UK population are going to hell merely for lack of belief in the God Jehovah, then that fact trumps any merciless genocide described in the Old Testament, a book that then becomes that much harder to reconcile with the New Testament.
Since I came of age, I have had no doubt (despite being brought up Catholic) that Hell was an invention of the insane and sadistic. Since I began blogging, twenty years later, I find the same fundamentalist "Christians" flogging the same idea under various (US funded) right wing ideologies. Can I ask anyone of a geological disposition to examine the Lough neagh clays, particularly in Donaghcloney?
Here we have more anti-Christian, brain washing, reporting from the British media.
It is not Richard Turnbull that damns most Britons to hell that is their own work, but the COE must accept the blame for failing to preach the gospel to the lost, 95%, although there is a small remnant within the COE preaching the Good News to the lost, βHow then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?β
If Britons refuse the offer of the gospel they will perish because of their own disbelief, they will be going to a lost eternity committing suicide with their own soul.βRemember this, if saved, you must be saved by God alone, though if damned you have damned yourselves. βHe that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.β
βFor God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.β
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
that picture . . . oh dear.
Richard Turnbull is deluded if he thinks anyone is going to take what he says seriously. In fact, he does his case more harm than good, by showing that the Church is completly out of date and out of touch with modern life.
But even if he is right that 95% of us are going to hell, I'm sure we're going to be a lot more interesting bunch than the 5% of puritanical goody-goodies going to the other place.
While walking down the street one day a US senator is tragically hit by a truck and dies. His soul arrives in heaven and is met by St. Peter at the entrance.
"Welcome to heaven," says St. Peter. "Before you settle in, it seems there is a problem. We seldom see a high official around these parts, you see, so we're not sure what to do with you."
"No problem, just let me in," says the man.
"Well, I'd like to, but I have orders from higher up. What we'll do is have you spend one day in hell and one in heaven. Then you can choose where to spend eternity."
"Really, I've made up my mind. I want to be in heaven," says the senator.
"I'm sorry, but we have our rules."
And with that, St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to hell. The doors open and he finds Himself in the middle of a green golf course. In the distance is a clubhouse and standing in front of it are all his friends and other politicians who had worked with him.
Everyone is very happy and in evening dress. They run to greet him, shake his hand, and reminisce about the good times they had while getting rich at the expense of the people.
They play a friendly game of golf and then dine on lobster, caviar and champagne.
Also present is the devil, who really is a very friendly guy who has a good time dancing and telling jokes. They are having such a good time that before he realizes it, it is time to go.
Everyone gives him a hearty farewell and waves while the elevator rises...
The elevator goes up, up, up and the door reopens on heaven where St.
Peter is waiting for him.
"Now it's time to visit heaven."
So, 24 hours pass with the senator joining a group of contented souls moving from cloud to cloud, playing the harp and singing. They have a good time and, before he realizes it, the 24 hours have gone by and St. Peter returns.
"Well, then, you've spent a day in hell and another in heaven. Now choose your eternity."
The senator reflects for a minute, then he answers: "Well, I would never have said it before, I mean heaven has been delightful, but I think I would be better off in hell."
So St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to hell.
Now the doors of the elevator open and he's in the middle of a barren land covered with waste and garbage. He sees all his friends, dressed in rags, picking up the trash and putting it in black bags as more trash falls from above.
The devil comes over to him and puts his arm around his shoulder. "I don't understand," stammers the senator. "Yesterday I was here and there was a golf course and clubhouse, and we ate lobster and caviar, drank champagne, and danced and had a great time. Now there's just a wasteland full of garbage and my friends look miserable. What happened?"
The devil looks at him, smiles and says, "Yesterday we were campaigning......
Today you voted.
The assertion that 95% of Britains are going to hell presupposes that 5% will be going to heaven. On what basis does Richard Turnbull draw this opotomistic conclusion? Actually they could all avoid going to hell...by converting to Roman Catholicism IF the Pope finally decides to shut it down for good. I really find it hard to see how he can sell his product without a warning from above that there will be eternal punishment for disobedience. What in the name of heaven and earth is this world coming to? Well at least the Evangelicals won't make that mistake, their hell will always and forever remain open for business. Why what would would the Baptist faith be without "fire and brimstone?" Hmm, anyone know where I can get some brimstone? I'm thinking of building an outdoor BBQ in my backyard. I'll ask next time I'm in ΒιΆΉΤΌΕΔ Depot. I could also rent it out to Baptist ministers when it's not in use...just so they can show their parishoners what they'll be up against if they don't straighten out and fly right. On second thought, maybe I'd just better forget it. I've never been one for the taste of sulfur in my food.
Hell is not a comfortable doctrine. Nevertheless, it is Biblical and 100% logical. It is nothing more or less than God granting people what they ultimately insist upon - distance from God Himself.
Jesus Christ - Son of the God of love - believed in Hell. I have to confess I don't have sufficient arrogance to contradict Him.
Philip Campbell, you may not have sufficient arrogance to contradict "him" but Pope Rottweiller may yet decide to "shut 'er down" especially if the collection plates don't start filling up. Do you have any idea what it costs to heat that place. You want your enemies to go there, you go to church and do your part, no more nickels and dimes, get out that checkbook and give till it hurts.
Hell 100% "logical"!!??
And Mohammed believed in Muslim hell, well knock me down with a feather!
I have to say that given the choice between spending eternity with Bible-believers and eternity in hell-give me hell any day!
Just read a good book on the subject;-
Pawson points out there are many many verses in the bible that show careless believers are excluded from heaven, but also that those who have not heard the gospel are judged by how obedient they are to their consciences; now many of us can claim to have lived up to that?
It was a very sobering read for me.
The best point is that his salvation is now open to all who become his disciples.
Jesus said;-
mark 9
43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
ENDS
some verses on hell in the bible;-
Jesus said:-
Luke 16
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "