Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ

There does seem to be plenty there today. I will be interested in Musharraf and how a potential impeachment may affect the was against al Qaeda.

The economy looks to me like its getting to the cliff edge. Hope the fall is not too far.

As time passes the number of witnesses to the Holocaust are dwindling. If there are still Holocaust deniers practicing in the UK does that show there should be stiff prison sentences for those found to be peddling blatant lies?

As ever I believe the potential break up of the UK following the Scottish 2010 referendum should be getting analysis sooner rather than just before what seems to be inevitable.

Number10TV? It get's worse!! Is it going to be like Big Brother - will we see live feed of what he gets up to all day long? Will there also be a diary room (uncut?)where he gets to moan about anyone/thing/issue? Do the public get to vote him out as one of the housemates?

Three ideas ...

Olympics:

The Olympics are very important, as are many issues revolving around china

But is there a risk that coverage of the China and The Olympics will drown out other issues?

Education:

Interesting article on the bbc site:



The question I never hear asked is how can you really evaluate a school when the benchmarking is meaningless.

For instance - we have one child in grammar school, another in a comprehensive. The grammar out performs the comprehensive by miles - but then, they dont have any pupils with lower ability. So the comparison is meaningless.


Statistics:

Yesterday the Conservatives abused a set of statistics to give a very misleading view of the NHS.

When statistics are presented like this, the normal media reaction is to take, for instance, the government to task for the perceived scandal. Much rarer does one see the people who presented the statistics nailed to the wall for being potentially deceitful.

So, how can the news media ensure a fair dissemination of statistics for the benefit of the public?

British Gas has been sending out nice brochures explaining why gas prices have gone up. They show a very nice chart the last date of which is 7/7/08. No wonder it stops there. The price fell off a cliff after that and is still sinking.

Why does OFGEM the let them get away with such propaganda. Gas prices may have gone up 60% till the july spike but where are they now? Back down to January levels.

They are kindly inviting me to lock in these prices based on the july spike high [which many think is a 4 year top]. Thanks but no thanks. I'd rather hedge on the futures market.

Everyone in the markets knows the commodity market has burst and its only the israel iran thing giving support.

From dodgy propaganda over prices, the uk being one of the few countries NOT to have two way grid, planners who block renewable projects, no energy storage there is something rotten in our energy market. Our guardians do not serve us well.

That will doubtless flush her out, gangofone - we haven't heard that particular nonsense in quite a while (by which I mean, of course, a couple of weeks - it's like a broken record with some of these goose-steppers, eh?)

FLUSHING OUT THE TRUTH

thegangofone(#1) "If there are still Holocaust deniers practicing in the UK does that show there should be stiff prison sentences for those found to be peddling blatant lies?"

First, in order to prove that anyone is telling blatant lies, surely there must be a statutory account of what the truth of the matter is (maybe the QCA/NAA could make it part of the National Curriculum)? Otherwise, how can anyone know that they're not a 'Holocaust Denier'? Just imagine, one's local, well meaning knocks on one's door, asks one a 'Holocaust' question, and Ahmadinejad's your uncle, next minute one's off to Belmarsh as a terrorist suspect aka 'Hollocaust Denier' for at least 42 days whilst a Kafkaesque case is prepared against you.

Told you.

Still, Jean, you have a point - I wouldn't want to see Holocaust deniars locked up either. Their views may be morally repugnant and their arguments both lacking in reasonable evidence and more than tinged with anti-Semitism, as I'm sure you agree, but I wouldn't want them locked up for expressing their nonsense.

And if we started locking people up simply for stating things which are not true, these blogs would have a strange echo.

Hilarious to hear some posters trying to be intimidating. Get your heads round it chaps, people hold a range of views, and many of them mean to use their right to discuss these openly. The days of suppression are coming to an end, whether you like it or not.
Interesting that when British voters in the 21st century assert their right to discuss immigration into their country, you invoke nazi and jack-boot imagery. There's presumably something Pavlovian about this. "I can't answer this. How can I ban it?"
Goose-stepping is what those who swallowed the propaganda of the time, did. The prisons were full of people who hung onto their belief in principles like free-speech and democracy. I wonder which you lot are.
Incidently, since you've raised the issue of WW2, for a number of years, whenever I've met anyone who saw active service in that war, I've asked them if, had they known that Britain was to be subject to the level of immigration that it has been after our 'victory' would they still go? I've had a number who said 'No'; and more recently, some who have said they'd need time to think about it. I have not yet had anyone give an unequivocal 'Yes.' You should try it.

Number 10 TV was done in 1931 by Ramsay McDonald of course - long before Gordon B:

PARANOIA AND PERSECUTION OR SOCIO-ECONOMIC OPPORTUNISM?

DrKF77 (#7) "Their views may be morally repugnant and their arguments both lacking in reasonable evidence and more than tinged with anti-Semitism, as I'm sure you agree, but I wouldn't want them locked up for expressing their nonsense."

'morally repugnant', 'arguments', 'reasonable evidence' and 'nonsense' - from your choice of language I take it you're not about to provide indisputable evidence to make those reprehensible doubters quake in their jack-boots? It must be said, there are an awful lot of survivors for a European population which is, outside Israel, has a below replacement level TFR (not to mention that NCAH which hits this group hardest, also contributes to low fertility). Do you think such questions might be considered morally repugnant by some?

Do you think one way to confer selective advantage upon a minority group/enclave relative to a large exclave might be to pass legislation which of its members' (opportnistic?) behaviour on the grounds that criticism is a form of persecution which in the past has resulted in progroms and, allegedly, genocide?

Good to see you DrKF77.

I am not mad keen on the idea of locking people up either. But this is not a matter of taste or opinion. These people know very well that what they say is untrue. There is absolutely overwhelming evidence that the holocaust happened as described and they know that.

They represent themselves here as democratic and seek fairness. But anybody with a modicum of common sense knows that that is a transparent subterfuge.

If they goose step in a field somewhere and satisfy themselves with frightening the sheep then I am happy to look the other way.

Am I trying to intimidate? No. But when a party is known to have had leading officials singing racist songs and giving a Nazi salute and when they want apartheid-style rule in Britain we know what they are and we should act accordingly.

By the way DrKF77 I do largely agree with you but these poeple represent themselves as patriots.

They will talk about WWII. But whose side would they have been on?

This is not harmless eccentricity. Was the Nazi nail bomber and paedophile jailed recently an aberration or a symptom? Twisted and nasty people full of hate and bile. Probably a hero to the goose stepping posters on here.

Too weak in the mind to come out and say what they are. They have to pretend to be democratic to draw people, probably of a very very low IQ, into their nasty little games.

He was jailed in the same time frame that the entire world came together to celebrate the birthday of Mandela.

What a contrast. One of the greatest men in history and a twisted little man in his flat with his child pornography.

Ah the intellectual strength of the far right!

How about including a a section on the two boats that have left Cyprus to take aid to the besieged population of Gaza. The people on board include the sister-in-law of Tony Blair and an 83 year old survivor of the Holocaust.

As for the first post regarding the locking up on "holocaust deniers" on a matter of simple principle, why does the truth need the sanction of imprisonment? If someone is telling a lie, then argue against them by showing them facts. If you cannot get them to agree, then perhaps you never will, but to criminalise it is to reduce the freedom of speech.

By the way I would be happy to look the other way if the goose steppers want to parade in a field somewhere.

I take back the comment about the sheep and if I become aware of any far right people sexually molesting any sheep, of whatever age, I will report it to the RSPCA!

As for "an awful lot of survivors " almost every European state that experienced Nazi occupation acknowledges that there was a genocidal "final solution" instituted by the Nazis. There photographs, confessions, trials, plans of the death camps. Abundant evidence.

These pathetic excuses for human beings are the kind of people who would regret that there were survivors.

There simply are no words to describe the kind of scum who can try to pervert the truth about the utter evil of the far right in WWII.

#14 HovellingHermit

I agree with your sentiments with regard to 99.9% of the population as they accept democracy. So why treat the far right differently?

You say: "a matter of simple principle". You are kidding.

Do you really believe that these people BELIEVE their words. Its a perverted lie so how can you respect that.

I am not happy about the idea of locking them up and may not even want to see them locked up for as long as David Irving got in Austria but it does need a sanction in my world.

"...BUT THEY'RE STILL HERE"

thegangofone (#11) "There is absolutely overwhelming evidence that the holocaust happened as described and they know that".

Correct me if I am wrong, but you appear to have missed my main point in #6 - namely, where does one draw the line if one makes denial of alleged historical events a criminal offence? It could get a bit tricky if there was a Holocaust Studies GCSE, as what would one do with the underperformers as the barmy PC brigade have been busily campaigning not to send 'children' to prison (even though this is where crime peaks). Secondly, it's not at all clear to many of us what this 'overwhelming evidence' you speak of actually comprises, as it was all alleged to have taken place in Eastern territory liberated by the Russians not in areas liberated by Western allies. Surely the fact that the current president of the Palestinian Authority did his PhD on this subject in Moscow in 1982 should give reasonable people some pause for thought (as perhaps should Ahmadinejad's recent boldness)?

Whilst I agree that incitement of racial hatred should be discouraged, so should egregious propaganda, nefarious rhetoric, hypocrisy, opportunism and nepotism surely? , who was essentially responsible for the creation of the state of Israel, had a thing or two to say on this sensitive matter. Hence my title.

Apologies for the incomplete link in #17 which should have been:

Surely the fact that the current did his PhD on this subject in Moscow in 1982 should give reasonable people some pause for thought (as perhaps should Ahmadinejad's recent boldness)?

thegangofone (#14) "I take back the comment about the sheep and if I become aware of any far right people sexually molesting any sheep, of whatever age, I will report it to the RSPCA!"

What about 'anti-fascist' sheep-molesters? Will they get reported too?

thegangofone (#15) "almost every European state that experienced Nazi occupation acknowledges that there was a genocidal "final solution" instituted by the Nazis."

Perhaps because they get locked up if they say anything else?

In reply to #15, thegangofone,


You simply can't make up laws about what people will choose to believe, and then lock them up when they state they believe something different. That is what despotic dictatorships do, not democracies.

There are many horrid things that have happened in history, the way that the Spanish decimated the native people of South America, the same for how the settlers wiped out whole tribes of native Americans, genocides back and forth through history. We don't make laws about what you can say or believe about them, and rightly so. Why make an exception for the Holocaust?

A general principle on anything is you provide the evidence to back up your argument, and then you let the weight of your argument and the evidence convince people. If it doesn't, you have to accept that either your argument wasn't up to it, the evidence was lacking or that the person you were trying to convince was close minded about it.

If someone says "Hey, there was no holocaust." The answer surely is "OK, show me the evidence that proves your case." Not "Go to jail, throw away the key."

POLITICS

thegangofone (#15) "There simply are no words to describe the kind of scum who can try to pervert the truth about the utter evil of the far right in WWII."

Except the German National Socialists were not a far right party, they were a left-wing socialist workers party (the clue being in their party name). The National Socialists ran a centrally planned economy (as did the Socialists in One Country USSR). They didn't trust Jewish socialist internationalists aka Bolsheviks (or Trotskyites) who are anarcho-capitalists. and others of the make this important point. They don't like command/planned economies because they restrict free-market capitalism.

You appear to be using the term 'nazi' as a term of abuse to vilify a form of government which you disapprove of e.g. Old Labour. Others use 'nazi' or 'fascist' to be abusive about people who believe in authority rather than freedom of the individual i.e. anarchism. The problem with anarchism is that it tends to ignore or even predatorily exploit human diversity by neglecting genetic inequality and the fact that we don't/can't live as individuals but need each other. It also neglects the fact that we have to collectively manage the balance of human genetic diversity through state level family planning (as China does under her 1995 legislation as set out in her 1982 constitution) or expect problems (which I have tried to explicate elsewhere with links to the worrying evidence). Responsible family planning is eugenics, the alternative is dysgenics - dysgenics, alas, is the natural state.

Perhaps in the light of the above you'll atleast consider using some other terms to describe people who behave in ways which you either don't understand or just disapprove of?

"dysgenics, alas, is the natural state." I should have added: "since the demographic-transition after which female emancipation, healthcare, contraception and education began to have an insidious effect on the Gaussian distribution of cognitive ability."

Another banned comment! Now on my page 'Blogs that didn't make it' at www.GutClean.com.

DENIERS AND CONNIVERS

How does conniving at lies (aka governance) stand with regard to denying truth? And then there is the PC trick of slavishly aligning with falsehood. If prison works, gonna need a lot more prisons.

rinpoche1 (#22) Perhaps if you'd used a euphemism in your last line? No offence in being factual, but with respect to "the dire political error of fascism and the monstrous crimes of the Nazis" were you there in the East, or did you read about it and accept it all at face value rather like many tacitly accept Anthropogenic Global Warming and that we can make people smarter through education?

I didn't see the 'referred to moderators etc' flag by the way, it was probably just the auto profanity filter - watch the top line.

THE HOLE PICTURE

Jaded Jean. Follow rinpoche1 link (#22) . . .

SPIN DOCTORS AND TRUE BELIEVERS: NO POPPERIANS OR QUINEANS WELCOME

Barrie (#25) I had. That's essentially what I was referring to.

Isn't it disappointing that so many people who undoubtedly consider themselves well educated find questioning their beliefs difficult if not repugnant? I remember days when criticism was welcome if not actively sought AS education.

People have seen photographs, films even. No doubt some of them have even seen Star Wars and ET....