Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ

Can we have a piece about this new Mediterranean Union at some stage, please? Seems to me it is the sort of development that needs to be watched. Makes me wonder what the ulterior motives are.

Subject: Knife Crime and how we react to suspects

Date: Monday, 14 July, 2008, 3:45 PM


If we consider the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Secretary's proposals, of visits to the injured in hospital having been stabbed; one sees the paucity of thought process in our leaders in Parliament.

Think on it! You have survived a stabbing! How many of these characters will? Are we not led to believe each time we turn on the News, that a new death has occured? Rather than recuperation under the NHS. "Oh Mr xxxxx" "We've found your assailant and have brought him along to learn by his mistakes". "Will you give him permission to approach". For so may reasons of simple practicality this does not work.

Nor I guess would my suggestion. For simple practicalities and the sensitivities from a deceased's relatives. When the Police identify, and locate the guilty party, there is the tiny reason of "due process" to give formal stamp that it is 'he'. Believed 'guilty' suspects cannot be bundled about, [more is the pity or not]. These 'Summary Justice' reactions, which in many cases I would go along with, are simply not allowed for under English law. Can you imagine the appeals and sub-appeals?

What I was about to suggest, [and defeated my own reaction,] was that 'suspects' would be locked in a room with the cadaver for an hour, which we are assuming they have recently killed. It would be suitably chilled, if not freezing in there, and cameras, numerous, remote from the four corners and above, record that no molestation took place with the corpse. The hot 'suspects', or known violent offenders, are brought face to face with the actual death which they have caused. They are locked and alone with the affect and effect of their crime. They would be watched and studied.

Personally, and I would say that presumably anyway; a better idea! More powerful than I have heard so far - but humbled by the exigencies of the law.


Sincerely

Nick Ruddock

...the knife kids are living in a Lord of the Flies island fantasy where, because of society's relativism, there are 'no adults'.

Criminals visiting their victims in hospital would find it a bonus, not a punishment, nor a learning experience. They are like the sadists who go in for dog fighting, so the sight of injuries will only excite them and be something to boast about with their peers. If I was unfortunate enough to be a victim and was visited in my hospital bed by the perpetrator, I hope I would have the strength to conceal a dirty knife under the bedclothes and stab his/her eyes out. The second scenario would involve a concealed full bedpan or urinal, which would rely on a good aim!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

The Assistant Deputy Police Chief has suggested that National Service might be one way to help tackle the rise in knife crime, but then seemed to back off because this idea was attracting too much of the discussion on the problem.
Now age 76, I have been advocating a return to National Service for years, because it was an important experience for me back in the 1950s and have seen how it could have helped my own children, whose ages now range from 13 to 47.
More than ever we now need a way of inculcating a form of discipline to help both parents and teachers in the unequal struggle against today's norms - from violent computer games, films and TV programmes, to the relentless pressure of greed, avarice and envy created by mass marketing, celebrity worship and unhelpful role models, from overpaid and over-valued sports personalities, to greedy politicians and company executives with lavish expenses and undesrved bonuses.
Let's give it some serious discussion,

NO ADULTS

Bookhimdano nails more than knife crime in those words (#2). When The Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Secretary of Great Britain uses 'bloominwell' to emphasise the imaginary 'good' of confronting an errant male with 'what he has done', you know there is a shortage of adults - especially in government. Then you watch PMQs with the 'grinning loon' presiding over juvenile party-games, and the proof is complete. The realisation that we are ALL children, takes a level of wisdom that depends upon the very maturity we have lost.
To address our endemic arrested- development is problematic, as a grown up electorate would not put up with childish governance. The turkeys have abolished Christmas.

Did I hear right , that Labour have announced its plans to reform the House of Lords ?

I think this should get some scrutiny.

This is my understanding of our current system -

The House of Lords is a important part of our constitution. If for instances a government wanted to do away with the right for jury trials in this country , then 25 hereditary peers can/would petition our Head of State to either withdraw royal consent for the piece of legislation or in a extreme case dissolve parliament itself and force an election.

This is the only legal way to restrict parliaments authority, it's a safety valve for what Lord Hailsham famously called "an elective dictatorship".

In The Sunday Times, in July 1970,he said

"It is the parliamentary majority that has the potential for tyranny. The thing the Courts cannot protect you against is parliament- the traditional protector of our liberties. But parliament is constantly making mistakes and could in theory become the most oppressive instrument in the world."

What checks and balances do Labour propose , if any ?

Any corrections to my understanding of our constitutional procedures are of course welcome.

the idea a bunch of unelected role gamers who dress up in cloaks and call themselves fancy titles is the one thing stopping tyranny is a comic notion. It becomes more funny if you read Hansard and find out what they talked about- subsidy for landowners mainly.

the head of state is a ceremonial role [opening bridges, tea parties etc] and so can be elected and on the civil service paygrade. No need to own all the foreshore, mineral rights and whatnot.

if the hereditary principle is a 'good' why not make it law for all things from judges to firemen to tv presenters. Surely we should not deprive ourselves of so much good?

No ones kidding when they say, "the correction of our apparently 'broken' society is a long term project". What else do we say to each other? "Back to basics"; and other irredeemably abused and corrupted thoughts.

When these comments were first made, in the 1990s, it was the Press that gave them a spin because there had been some Government MPs who were bending regular morality, and this was a means of beating a Government, or rather Party that had been in power over ten years, with the words of their Leader, in order to humiliate him.

Hello, are we there again? Has the media and Press made a decision, subliminally, passively, surreptitiously, to repeat the same disruption to undermine Brown's Government. Are they exaggerating the degree of annoyance we the punters actually have with the numerous mistakes that have been made? The same degree of spin, 'out of proportion' to the actual fault of the Government at any single instant of criticism. And are these criticisms causing a spiralling down, affecting the general climate in which social behaviour and economic life is played out. We must be aware that there is a danger of proverbially "throwing the baby out with bath water". This ten year period of 'Domestic' Government has achieved quite a lot, although in Foreign Affairs, most would find a 'slavish' immature interpretation of "our special relationship"; possibly caused through Blair's juvenile response to the trappings of power.

Nevertheless, my main disappointment has to be the singular Conservative criticism, which for me does stick. As with the story of Joseph [the coat of many colours] and the dreams of the Pharoah; seven good years and seven bad. Economics always goes in cycles - "what goes around comes around". I'm afraid the Labour Government took their eyes off this particular ball, failed to take account that they started at a strong economic base, achieved at long last by the previous Government, and that their, Labour's achievements, weren't solely of their own making. An oft repeated mistake of groups and companies - they started to believe their own propaganda.

So where do we go from here?

2008 Knife Culture
is symptomatic of a collective self-perpetuating paranoia in youth, fuelled firstly in their short lives by world terrorist atrocities. Reporting of the associated wars in Iraq and Afghanistan also brings a constant reminder, with deaths being reported sometimes on a daily basis.

Secondly, fear and feeling unsafe amongst the collective youth, (becoming even more marginalized and introspective), additionally occasioned by a steady stream of attacks and killings leads to the perceived need for self-protection, hence the self-perpetuating paranoia.

An immediate law is called for which requires that all knife sales be subject to a license, which must in turn be enforced.

It is the unassailable duty of government and police to protect all society. The first and most obvious solution is to root out the unscrupulous manufacturers, importers and suppliers of knives and to eradicate the supply by lawful means.

This will be aided by a clear message from government and police that selling or supplying knives to minors will be dealt with most severely and perpetrators will be subject to stringent penalties.

This message must be also be targeted at the sub-culture of supply, i.e. owning, selling and exchange of knives amongst the youth and their immediate circles, who must be made aware that they are also subject to the law.

The associated problems of drink related knife crime must also be addressed. It is long overdue that there be a stringent overhaul of drinks licensing, and that advertising promotions at source need to be thoroughly reviewed. Clubs which attract large numbers of youths with cheap drinks promotions must be made aware that unscrupulous marketing which in turn leads to drunkenness and violent crime will NOT be tolerated and the authorities in turn must revoke licenses and close premises which are seen to be instrumental in the problems on the streets. Supermarkets selling cheap alcohol by means of unscrupulous marketing offers must also be subject to license review.

It is very important to communicate the message to all, that government and police authorities take their duty of protection seriously, and in such a way as to gain more trust and confidence of society, and that the authorities are seen to act decisively, firmly and fairly.

8.7.08 (edited 15/7)

POST SCRIPT 14.7.08
Weak out-dated sociology as a sop is unacceptable

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

As initiatives seem to become law - and vague ones at that (whim and 'interpretation' now being be the best way to fine for revenue or incarcerate to meet targets) - at the drop of the hat, I have been moved to write to the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Office:

'As a keen outdoorsperson and DIYer, I often have had occasion to have such as a Leatherman and indeed other sharp objects (that could be used for violent purposes) about my person or in my car or luggage when out and about.

To avoid at best losing a valued tool and at worst falling foul of the law, please can you clarify for me what I am allowed to carry in public, when and in what circumstances.'

Or maybe our national broadcaster might be able (or at least be the unwitting vehicle) to assist me in not remaining ignorant of our ever-evolving (daily) legal system?

NO ADULTS

I too cringed at bloominwell (#7).

There are still a few who DO qualify for adulthood , despite us ALL being children. Who they are is debateable, and will we ever be able trust them to have our best interests at heart? Not likely!

The one who presides over PMQ's is just the most recent to adopt the Grinning Loon mantle. Who in the relatively recent past, in this role, has not been guilty of idiotic adolescence?

It is what lies beneath the inane facade (if anything) which matters. The adult facade is more sinister. For what may lurk beneath it?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

#9

I understand that the House of Lords could be open up to "Normal" people , like jury service.I could go for this idea.

But this is not whats being proposed , it's more of the same as the House of Commons , eg party teams, loyal only to their respective teams/parties and not to the "Normal" people of this country.

Then there is the main issue of who will protect us from a parliament itself ,"an elected dictatorship".We sow Tony.B try and limit jury trials in this country by saying it costs to much , but he was thwarted by our constitution , which is based on a treaty between the head of state and the peoples of this nation(not parliament). The only legal way of getting parliament out of this constitution restraint is by removing the players in the mechanism that can activate it , the hereditary peers serving in the House of Lords and the head of state.
So who/what does Labour propose to protect our rights to have a jury trial in this country, for example ?
Will it be worth the paper its written on ?

PS.
Lets see what the House of Lords does with the 42 days pre charge detention legislation ?
I suspect it will be thrown out !

Not that this will stop Labour's majority in the House of commons as they will use the dubious parliament act.

An elected dictatorship ?

In resposne to scotsvernacular, #11.

You can't ban or license the sale of knives and expect it to work;

Firstly most of the weapons used are passed or sold between the kids themselves, or stolen from parents, or shoplifted

Secondly, do you then go on to license screwdrivers, claw hammers, bottle openers? All have been used in the 7 days in assaults

Thirdly, why should I not be able to buy a new kitchen knofe, or stanley or leatherman - or indeed carry my swiss army knife - because of the behaviour of a minority?

It seems more than a coincidence that when Jeremy Paxman is away from the studio the illusive Enfant Terrible, aka Banksy, is also photographed on the streets for the first time.

This can only lead to speculation that Banksy is indeed Jeremy Paxman.

13 + 17..

FWIW, this from today's Indy:

'...should have gone armed with – as well as [their pocket knives] – section 139(3) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. This contains an exception for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting edge to its blade not exceeding three inches.'

I remain unsure as to how all this plays out, however, especially with the state of this country and the reactions, and over-reactions of those tasked to 'run' it.

Especially as, playing Devil's Advocate, I have a vague notion that the distance from the exterior of a person's chest to a fatal part of the heart might fall within 3 inches.

Or the length of a screw driver... or...

If someone has the intention of hurting another, if one means of doing it is removed I rather suspect they will just find an alternative.

So with the brainpower be deployed at senior levels of government these days, and the levels of challenge they get from the media, I anticipate we shall soon be glazing with sugar panes and required to only wear flip-flops on building sites.

ps:

I have Cloe_F to thank (and not the site owners/designers - there's a surprise) for the information that certain posts that do not even register let alone get seen to be moderated, fail possibly because of errors created by unusual characters such as an ampersand.

Hence my using a '+' rather than this character above, which indeed solved yet another failed post attempt.

I don't know if it is a Mac thing and/or what other characters may cause this, but thought this worth sharing.

ps:

I have Cloe_F to thank for the information that certain posts that do not even register let alone get seen to be moderated, fail possibly because of errors created by unusual characters such as an ampersand.

Hence my not using this character above, which indeed seemed to solve yet another failed post attempt.

I don't know if it is a Mac thing and/or what other characters may cause this, but thought this worth sharing.

Maybe these issues might be identified and solutions shared to help posters in future?

16

to protect our rights...

the current system does not protect our rights. The national oath is not to protect the rights and laws of ALL the people but the place and position of one family of role gamers forever. Even the 'national anthem' is not a national anthem but a song in praise of the monarchy role game.

With the current oath one of the enemies of state are 'the people's rights'.

It is even illegal to suggest anyone else other than monarchy role gamers might be head of state. So the monarchist role gamers have anti free speech gagging laws still in place.

the monarchy role gamers and its patronage network is not a 'scrutiny system'. Its an anti democratic do as i say know your place game. The monarchist role gamers did not give up the executive to the people because it was the right and good thing to do but because they were looking down the barrel of cromwell's canon.

so monarchists role gamers who believe in an unelected dictatorship cannot be effective at protecting the rights of the people because given the choice they are obliged and duty bound by oath to protect the rules of the monarchy role game.

So the head of state is a ceremonial role and can be elected and on the civil service pay grade. We need a new State oath that protects the rights and laws of All the people, new words to the anthem and a refreshed system of scrutiny.

20, 21 - pps: you can add a plus sign as... iffy.

I posted 20 and saw nothing, so took it out and reposted. Go figure. Interesting system.