Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ

Very much looking forward to a Grand Slam showdown with Wales in the final game. Just hope neither team blow it in the 2 games beforehand as the excitement of the final game will be diminished if 1 or neither has a chance at a Grand Slam.

PS My username may give an indication of how I feel about beating England but that's more in football than in rugby as the achievement is much more. This current Ireland team should be battering that Engand team on paper.

I watching England play in the 2002 football world cup whilst in Germany, and was struck by how so many Germans supported England - whereas the reverse would be unthinkable. It brought home the fact that whilst we were obsessed with beating the Germans and our rivalry with them, they did not consider England to be major rivals, and as such were happy to support England as neutrals. An object lesson in an assymetric perceptions of rivalry.

The fact that other rugby nations got so hot under the collar about beating England should have given England fans plenty of smug satisfaction. The fact that beating England now inspires only apathy says everything about our fall from grace.

But look at last year's result and performance. England did a good job of dismantling Ireland at Twickenham - in fact it was so one-sided that even Jamie Noon looked like a good player...

As someone who has been an England supporter both through the successful times under Carling and Dallaglio/Johnson and through the rather desolate years both before Carling and between these two eras, I don't quite understand why beating England is such a big thing for the Celtic nations - we've had bad teams before, and a sight worse that this current one.

Surely beating (or being) the best team in the Championship is much more important. That's why I have usually considered Engalnd-France as the biggest game - over the last 20 years or so these are the two teams who have most often challenged for the title.

Not sure about England being arrogant. Here in Ireland the media seems to expect a grand slam every year for the last six years! Yet the last one was 1948. I think Irish rugby and 1948 is a nearer companison to English Football and 1966!

As a Wales fan, looking at Ireland in their games so far, they seem to be an unstoppable force. The only reasons I have any confidence that Wales can beat them is because the game will be in Cardiff and Wales are actually a decent team themselves at the moment.
Kidney has one hell of a job to do to shift the burden of history that will be weighing on this Irish team if they get a grand slam showdown with Wales on the final weekend.

As an Englishman exiled in Dublin and married to a Dubliner I always get the impression - in fact I've been getting that impression all week from my colleagues - that beating England is almost as important as winning the Grand Slam itself!

Personally, I would expect Ireland to win, but not by the margin that many are predicting and if Ireland play the way they did against Italy they'll be in big trouble.

I think your stereotypical views of English fans are both harsh and untrue and as a football and rugby fan I've seldom found a finer bunch, who are all too often tarred with the brush of a minority of despicable idiots.

As an England fan you're often told you're arrogant, you're a thug, etc, etc but I think the response of a shrug of the shoulders and a smile, safe in the knowledge that you know who and what you really are says it all. The English gentlemen is not dead but rather is reluctant to descend to the level of petty name calling.

As the stereotyped "smashing up cities" types so accurately put it "no one likes us, we don't care"

Enjoy your weekends folks and may the best XV men win!

I'm always intrigued by people's assertions that England should not still crow about winning a world cup (Rugby or Football) when they haven't experienced such a victory and can therefore not understand the feeling of being the best.

I would take England underperforming their way to the World Cup final ahead of the other home nations making a great effort of reaching the quarters at best...

Sorry, I used the word best twice in this post - I fear only English readers will understand.

revelator80 sounds like the personification of why supporters of the Celtic nations regard the English as they do.

I think dummy_half is spot on about the good and bad periods in English rugby, and any other "fans" from other nations pretending to be bored with beating England are doing just that - pretending.

But an article supposedly about Ireland's grand slam chances that is actually, and sneakilyn about why other nations want to beat England - Mr Dirs, I feel you are either stirring up trouble or are not aware how many billions of words have already been written on the subject.

I tend to think that educated 'Celts' do not go in for the arrogant (usually an allegation that is completely misapplied) accusations. It is usually just the rabble.

Whilst the football hooligan and the braying idiot are both unattractive stereotypes that one seldom encounters, the chippy Celt who has to do England down at every opportunity is equally unattractive. As revelator says they have no real appreciation of success on a national or personal level and tend to use rants of victimhood, dewy eyed sentiment and biggotry against the English to somehow compensate.

England have a massive player base and huge financial recourses, not to mention a so-called 'British' media oozing with subjectivity towards the brave men in white. I remember once a certain Jamie Salmon describing how Wales were 'always good at bringing other teams down to their own level' , prior to a Wales v England game.
Also, do we need reminding only a few years ago the talk of England and France splitting off from the 6 nations, to get more competition from the southern hemisphere?

The reality is that England have put money before international success in how they run their club rugby, starving the players of the ability to express themselves on the pitch. They are now paying for this by not only being unable to show consistent flair at international level, but also by losing players due to a salary cap; brought in because of their greed got out of hand.

The English supporters are actually ok and as current or former players, have a mutual respect for the game. It's a shame that the RFU did not show the same attitude.

So in answer to your question, I hope that England get stuffed tomorrow and that Wales and Ireland have a cracking Grand Slam decider in Cardiff next month. If this happens, then rugby will be the winner-if not England.

@12 - "If this happens, then rugby will be the winner-if not England."

What a daft thing to say.

"that you never hear the end of an English victory."

Thought that was hilarious coming from an Irishman, if you have the misfortune to be near one when they win... it's as though they just won 5 world cups all at once! It is good that Irish rugby has come so far as (when I was growing up) they were always the whipping boys of the 5 Nations... now Scotland are the whipping boys! Although Scotland seem to be coming together, if Hadden can get the forwards right and sticks with the backs we may just upset a few Irish fans... England may cause an upset but I very much doubt it, I suspect if Italy had played with a proper 9 that game would have been very different...

England play boring rugby and inspire no-one. They have players with genuine flair, yet their main club competition breeds a 'win at all costs' mentality that reduces the opportunities for these players to express themselves. When they step up to international level, they simply cannot play the exciting rugby seen by sides like France, Ireland or Wales.

What other excuse is there to be so boring, with so much playing talent available?

'As revelator says they have no real appreciation of success on a national or personal level and tend to use rants of victimhood, dewy eyed sentiment and biggotry against the English to somehow compensate.'

Come on, The_Hessian, poor show there, rather letting the side down.

It's 'bigotry', just the one g, old chap, and for heaven's sake don't go splitting your infinitives.

You need to up your game, or these Celtic types will start thinking that they can speak our language better than we can! As well as beating us at rugger - it could all get rather grim, if we let our standards slip like this.

"As revelator says they have no real appreciation of success on a national or personal level and tend to use rants of victimhood, dewy eyed sentiment and biggotry against the English to somehow compensate"

Yes, it's a great pity isn't it, especially when you English have such a lovely attitude to us. I feel another glorious English "moral victory" coming up in Dublin, only slightly marred by the minor technical detail of Ireland scoring more points.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Well, I hope (as an Irishman!) that the game is well refereed. I'd hate there to be more complaining on these boards like there has been recently.

As someone who many times has stood on the terraces of Lansdowne road watching England run in try after try against an ill prepared Irish 'team', it is great to see that we are now consistently competitive against a team that has considerably more players, resources etc. The move to professionalism while certainly destroying certain romantic elements of the game has allowed Irish rugby to make the most of what we have and we are all enjoying it....while it lasts. Without doubt the game is the strongest it has ever been on the emerald isle, the level of youth participation in the game has sky rocketed due mainly to the exploits of Munster but considering the population and the broad variety of sports that Irish people particpate in, there will be dark days again (just look at the football team). It is with this in mind that I will be wearing not only my Irish shirt but a particularly large grin should we stuff the English tomorrow evening.

Professor_Higgins, rather letting down the side?

;)

As an Irishman, I do worry when we get carried away with ourselves and start taking victories for granted. We were all set for a decent run at the Grand Slam in 2001, but dropped the ball in Murrayfield and there were our dreams gone again.

You could have been forgiven for thinking a few years ago that the gap between the larger nations, England and France, could not be bridged by the Celtic nations in these professional times - but Wales have actually shown us all that it is possible to be that good.

One Grand Slam could have been called a flash in the pan, but their victory last year proved that you can have the guts and the ability, if not the population. I still believe they are the team to beat, but I hope Declan Kidney and co. share my outlook at reserving looking to this game, stricly after the England and Scotland matches.

But yeah, a fine article Mr Dirs. I hope you don't mind me being pedantic and pointing out that it is Tomas (or even TomΓ΅s, I think) O'Leary, and not Thomas.

Ade

I see the usual suspects are appearing on here with their love of bashing all things English.

To be perfectly honest, if that makes you happy, then fine. Personally I don't care, and I bet you wouldn't have the bottle to make these comments face-to-face. I also think you need to get a life and a sense of proportion.

Yes, England won a world cup in 1996, and another in 2003. Get over it. Do you think that Australians keep quiet about all their union/league/cricket world cup wins? How about the Germans, or the Brazilians, or the South Africans?

Let's say that the current Welsh team goes on to greater things and win in 2011. Will the Welsh fans keep quiet? No, probably not.

Still, can't see that happening, they could only beat the current dire, abysmal England team 23-15 at home, they'll have no chance away in NZ.

Hang on a second now lads-are we actually turning into England ourselves???? We now sound like the arrogant ones and this could be our downfall. Bit of realism please-England thrashed us last year at Twickenham. OK so alot has changed since then but tomorrows game is going to be very very tough. Wales only scraped past England and I can see the english improving on that performance-especially now they have an out half.

As an Irishman, I love beating England at anything! But in the 6 nations, we have not won the Grand Slam 3 times in a row, because we lost to France! So let's face it, in a six nations where we beat France, then England is just a tripping stone along the way... but nothing like that compared to Wales! I would even expect Scotland to be a more difficult game, as the always semm to up their game against the Irish and the game is in Murrayfield.
In club rugby, Ireland is presently one of the strongest nations in Europe and maybe the world... all 2 teams :-))..., so it is logical that we must have at least one good season internationally. As for soccer... our guys are far inferior to the English at the moment and they even have the better Italian trainer!!

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

A lot of Irish bullishness misplaced this year i feel. England have been disjointed and incoherent in play recently, but in reality the autumn internationals were a testing ground only (and yielded some valuable players). The recent improvement in steel and return of experienced players may turn the tide.

Let's not forget how humbled Ireland were last year at Twick after a truly shocking performance so to assert that an English defeat is expected is surely daft, especially given the fragility of O'Gara (controversial?) when truly challenged.

Narrow win to a spoiling England tomorrow (and yes tactics are part of the rich tapestry) and possibly the title.

England outscored Wales in tries last weekend and they can do the same to the Irish.

This is quite a delicate subject and deep rivalries ususally have some historic context. This blog seems to want discuss the relationship of sport, history, politics and bigotry without offending anyone!

I think the Celtic nations and England have moved beyond their historic dislikes for each other which is great. To me the rivalries really only exist in sport. I feel, however, that there is still a hint of bigotry and national superiority which manifests itself when the local teams meet.

A little story....an Irish friend of mine attended a job interview in Ireland about 7-8 years ago and was asked the usual inane questions. He trotted out the standard answers until he was asked what was the greatest day of his life. Without hesitation he said 12 June 1988, the day Ray Houghton headed the ball back across the 6 yard box and into the top of the net. Euro 88 - Ireland 1 England 0.

The town I come from went into shut down that day. It seemed the whole population converged in the central square in a mass celebration. As a teenager at the time the response felt very good on some kind of primitive level. For me no Irish result in any sport, from that day to this, has generated such a reaction.

That was 21 years ago.......the world has changed a lot since then.

By the way my friend got the job.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Onyer! RAGLANENGLANDFAN!

Don't know why they've removed it RAGLAN, seemed like you hit the nail on the head to me.

Seems like we're back to the, everyone else can say things about us and as long as we continue to apologize for our existence (i.e. this sycophantic Dirs blog) and don't upset the so called celts (what a laugh...another name for that is gypsies) then its ok.

What a ridiculous blog!(Dirs) He even apologizes for asking the question. Get a backbone Dirs. Sycophant.

I've been having a look at this blog and I have to say as an Irishman (with an English dad (Kent by the way)) that that both sets of fans bashing each other are pathetic. It's only a game for crying out loud. My fellow compatriots, get over the whole England obsession, there is bigger fish to fry.

Suitechariot I would agree with the O'Gara comment. No consistency.

That's a nice story, Strongback (#28), like it.

You're right, the world has changed since then.

For me, it changed during 1996.

With grandparents from three of the four "home nations", I can often see a bit of both sides of the rivalry/antipathy (call it what you will).

But when I saw Scotland fans deliriously cheering Englands fourth goal against Holland (meaning Scotland would progress if scores remained as they were), a little bit of me died.

Since then the (dominant) English part of me has never been able to take Scottish goading seriously.

Ahh, well.... there's still the French

Oops , appears my comment has caused someone offense !! No 29, thought it was tame really. I currently reside in NZ where the hatred of all things English is rife and we are known as arrogant and up ourselves , we cant play rugby and never beat the All blacks twice in a row , never won a grand slam , never thrashed southern hemisphere teams and never won a world cup or got to the 2007 final. I believe I must require medicating for imagining such ridiculous events. Have Ireland done this in the last 10 years ? Just curious .

#28

So the greatest day in the life of your friend was the day that a man who was born in Scotland and played for West Ham, Oxford, Liverpool and Villa (amongst others) scored the goal that gave victory to an Ireland team managed by an Englishman (world cup winner no less) and containing players born in such great Irish places as Newquay, Stratford, Barnsley and Ealing (4 of the first 7 I checked).

That should be enough to tell everyone how false this whole subject is. Perhaps your friend needs to get out more.

In rugby, the number of potential players alone *should* mean that the English beat everyone except the French most years. That's not English arrogance, just common sense. That we don't says a huge amount about how badly run the game is in England.

The fact that the Irish team has been so good for the last decade or so says a lot about how much better it is run (comparatively, it certainly hasn't been perfect either).

I'm glad to see that some Irish supporters have moved on and want more from the team than the occasional win against the English.

The quality of the team certainly deserves it and IF they beat England I hope they go on to win the Grand Slam.

Fed up with (not 'of') this nonsense about English arrogance. Like many lies, if it's repeated often enough people of limited intelligence believe it - alongside claims that the celts have a chip on their shoulders, the French cave in if they're behind, and so on. Like the other countries in the championship, English teams go up and down, and their fans support them, and hope, or even expect, that they'll win. It's nonsense to suggest that only English fans hark back to past glories that are not relevant to today's games, though the history of the game is all part of the interest.

Repeating lazy generalisations has nothing to do with informed comment.

For me, Ireland beating England any sport is always fun. I enjoy it simply so I can wind up my English friends with some good natured banter. On the other hand, I am always ready to take my share of the stick should Ireland lose!

However watching the France vs Wales game last night, I am very glad we got France out of the way for our first match and won it. Don't get me wrong; I know our final match against Wales will be no walk over, but I'm glad it's not France!

English by birth, and parents both born in N Ireland - I know in my heart and always have that I am English. I now live in Oz and have to endure a lot of Pommy Bashing comments. The stereotypes do nothing to enhance our cultures - the thugs that claim to be "fans" and the chinless toffs born with silver spoons in their gobs. Strange emotions come up when I watch the 6 Nations - even found myself hoping that France would beat Wales.... just made the maths better for England in the tables. I am dismayed with Englands lack of creativity, penetration, and discipline. Sure the game has changed since I played - but it is still a wonderful battleground when played fairly. I remember watching Eng v Ire as a kid, my Dad shouting "come on Ireland!" at players in shades of grey on the TV. This time, we will watch from other ends of the Earth - Come on England - Come on Ireland ........ make it a game to remember for all the right reasons. Enjoy everyone, no matter where you hail from

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

It's good that they expect to beat us. It just makes the 'upest' even more satisfying.

Seriously though, if we defend and compete at the break down as well as we did against Wales then I haven't seen anything from Ireland which makes me think the game will be anything other than close. It could go either way.

#18

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

ah tonygreeg and we get to the heart of it!
why don't you go to the tri nations and play against "better teams"?
surely Wales are a better team as theyve beaten your lot 3 out of the last 4 times we've played you!
France certainly look a better team and ireland should beat you today!
So there's three better teams in this championship alone and scotland always seem to up their game against you we could even be talking about 4 better teams by the end of this season.
Maybe you'd like to go to the tri nations and only have three "better teams" to lose to rather than four!

Whilst the football hooligan and the braying idiot are both unattractive stereotypes that one seldom encounters, the chippy Celt who has to do England down at every opportunity is equally unattractive. As revelator says they have no real appreciation of success on a national or personal level and tend to use rants of victimhood, dewy eyed sentiment and biggotry against the English to somehow compensate.

The_Hessian,

I invite you to peruse the 606 boards, because this is exactly the English response to a Welsh or Irish defeat these days. It is rather desperate that the English have exerted more energy on 606 gloating about Wales' loss last night rather than talking up England's unlikely chances in Dublin today.

At the risk of 'ranting of victimhood' the English attitude is summed up by their response to the Welsh and Irish success in the last five years (two Welsh Grand Slams, two Irish Triple Crowns I believe) - the tournament, so we are told, is of a poorer standard these days than it was when England were winning because England are weaker now - nevermind that when England enjoyed so much success in the 90s and early 2000s the celtic nations were hopeless and only France could mount a serious challenge. Now that the celtic nations have caught up with England (in Scotland's case) and even overtaken them (Wales & Ireland) the standard is suddenly poorer.

Mister F - to be fair, I suspect the accusation that the quality of the six nations has dropped is also due to the northern hemisphere teams recent performance against the southern hemisphere.

#43 - Anfield Dragon

You miss my point - I'm trying to do you all a favour. You appear to dislike the English so much that I thought you might enjoy things a little more if we aren't there.

Anyway, it matters not as the super-PC moderators have removed my message anyway. For those who missed it, I dared to question those who bash the English.

Let's be fair about this, these rivalries are not purely based on sport. The state of the respective English and Irish teams means nothing to me, I just want to beat England. Were Ireland far and away the best team in the world as England lay in crisis I would still love beating England.

The English need to stop flattering themselves that it's their sporting 'excellence' that gets us revved up, because it's not. It's the years of putting up with you lot over the sea, and more often than invited coming over the sea.

#47 - just proves my point. If I made any remarks about your country along the same lines, you would cry foul and you know it.

For the record, we have been the best in the world and I loved beating the Irish then and I would love beating them tonight. Is that ok, or is it just arrogance?

Well if you didn 't care you wouldn't post would you?

Make remarks about my country all you want, I have many english friends and we all have a laugh about the old stereotypes, because they don't stick. However, the fact is that history brings out the worst in all of us when it comes to these rivalries.

Is anyone else fed up with Brian Moore's continuing criticism of England and his so-called suggestions for improvement. If he thinks he knows best and is so damn then why doesn't he get involved with coaching the team instead of complaining?

Please, please, please, get rid of English commentators - they really are one sided. Never, ever, have I heard an English commentator, or journalist give a balanced opinion of how another nation has played - well the exception - Jeremy Guscott. It is really sickening, and biased. Bring back the style and ethics of the commentators such as Bill McLaren. They were classics, unbiased and truly appreciative of the athletes and skill of every Nation on the pitch. The players of the professional age, play at such a high intensity, that, I would love to see an English journalist, for example, Brian Moore, get on the pitch today and play against a top Nation. Perhaps then, they would appreciate that times have changed since they played.

Hi, I am one of those people fed up with Brian Moore. I am Italian and I know that we are relatively new to the game, but I'v been living in Wales for the last 12 years and I fell in love with the game and I've been watching the Six Nations ever since, regardless of which team is playing. I just can't help noticing that every time that England plays, Brian Moore leans towards England in a lot of his commentary, wether it is in criticism or praise, he seems not to have time for their opponents. I think he should be impartial and carry on with the job that has been appointed to him, which is to commentate about the game and not his personal views! And yes if he think he knows best, I completely agree with the comment from paulbowskil, why doesn't he get involved and does something useful for a change.

revelator80: No need to apologise. In response to your 'best' comment, probably, it's best to expand your phrase. 'Best to worse' seems more fitting, but if you mean speaking complete guff, then yes, your are best.

And, while this is difficult for you to comprehend, only the other Nations will understand this. Probably it is best, oh my, there's that word again, for you to post a comment to help others to help you, otherwise you can call the England Rugby help line - 0044 23-15 14-13

Mister F: Ah, so your not the only one who notices 'one-sided' and very biased opinions from English commentators and Journalists. It is not difficult to hear the spittle that come from some of the other England fans who post some of these comments. When this happens, it's really comfortable and nice to see England lose.

With the enire UK contributing towards a TV license, the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ should start consider better reporting standards.

Back to Rugby, Ireland played well, they're on for the Triple Crown, and the showdown with Wales should be a masterpiece. I can't wait for that. The final results? Well:

Ireland
Wales
France
Scotland
England
Italy

Not this chestnut again, Dirs...you've had a mare here!, it's not often i feel the need to comment on these blogs, i find i (and probably most people) tend to take a lot of it with a pinch of salt, and a vat full of salt with the comments, so feel free to do so with mine....

Tbh, it's always the same, nothing will ever change and stereotypes wil always persist, even though they are usually rubbish, it can get a little irksome though, especially when getting a pint in you try and congratulate a Welsh fella on their win (I use this only as an example btw my Welsh friends) and chat about it only to be told, 'You were never going to win anyway were you, thats the problem, your full of it, we were **** and we still beat you, Wales grand slam this year!', he had a swig of his drink and i left him to it a little bemused, and no i did'nt make that up i must add, now you could say he has a point, many would probably laud his comments, skirting gracefully past the irony, but he was a confident Welsh supporter, saying it how it is, not an English supporter, full of arrogance, funny that, ah well, it will never change, anyway, shame about tonight, close game, Ireland deserved it, O'driscoll class, Danny Care, gutted!, i rate him so highly and he lost his cool, anyway, hopefully the rest of the tournament is as intriguing as it has been so far, forgive my arrogance, but England might even win another game. :-)

"they have no real appreciation of success on a national or personal level"

That is probably one of the most pointless, meaningless sentences i have ever came across on a message board. Can anyone expand on it?