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	TX: 21.07.08 - Welfare Reform PRESENTER: LIZ BARCLAY

	Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4 THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT. BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 麻豆约拍 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY. Barclay Now James Purnell, the work and pensions minister, will announce those plans to reform the welfare system this afternoon, the changes will have an impact on many disabled people who are currently unemployed and claiming incapacity benefit. Peter has been looking at the proposals. Peter can you spell out what some of these changes are likely to be? White Yes Liz, I mean essentially we're going to see the end of the incapacity benefit that was brought in back in 1995, trying to do exactly what these measures are doing. There is instead a new benefit - the Employment and Support Allowance - and that will cover the majority of people who are currently on incapacity benefit due to disability. The really significant change here is that people on it will undergo regular and continuous assessment and that they will be expected to undertake work related activity and be working towards employment. In other words moving away from the idea that people are permanently on incapacity benefit or that disability is a permanent thing. There will be a much smaller group of people, regarded as severely disabled, they will not be expected to search for work and they will get an enhanced benefit, higher than the current incapacity benefit rate. Barclay Well what's the background to all of this, you mentioned incapacity benefit coming in in 1997, they've been trying to crack this for a long time, have they not? White Absolutely, I mean the Conservatives before them they were trying to crack it. It's something that this government has wanted to do ever since it came into power in '97, they've always thought the numbers on incapacity benefit were far too high, distorted by earlier attempts - mainly back in the '80s - to shift people on to incapacity benefit to keep politically sensitive unemployment figures down. That's history now. They've made various attempts in the past, thwarted by a number of factors - high turnover in ministers, an enormous turnover, political opposition from their own left win - and nothing yet has had a big effect. Numbers falling slightly but still standing at around 2.64 million. They've a phrase - Labour - that they've been quoting ever since they came into power like a mantra - a million disabled people who want to get back to work - easier to say than to prove. And this is the most determined effort yet to try to turn that into a reality. Barclay We have been hearing in the headlines that the idea that people with chronic incapacity could be sent out to pick out litter and we've got an e-mail here saying that that's an absolutely appalling idea and it will make many people even more ill. And the person who's emailing says: On the last drive to get people off benefits my wife, who had chronic fatigue syndrome, was told that she had been ill a long time and that an assessor was cutting off her support to encourage her to get back to work. It took three years to reverse that decision and she still has the illness and still can't do a regular job. Is this a worry, I mean there is going to be an impact on disabled people receiving incapacity benefit or its replacement? White Oh yeah that e-mail highlights the whole worry really. As I said for most severely disabled people the impact won't be great, indeed it may well be beneficial. A leaked document suggests that people in this group will receive a higher rate of benefit - just over £100 up from £86. But the great majority of people will be expected to look for work when their condition improves, I don't know about picking up litter but - and undergo regular assessments to see if it's improved. The government's working on the assumption that work is good for you, that with many conditions it's likely to help both your physical well being and your state of mind and this is where the real argument is on disability because campaigning groups argue, just as that e-mail did, that there are conditions where the pressures of constant assessment, indeed work itself, adds to the condition, makes it worse, conditions which make a large part of disabled people on incapacity benefit at the moment - stress related conditions, people with depression and conditions like ME where the debate about the causes goes on. Jemma Packett has ME, she's had it for 19 years, before its onset she was a senior manager in the NHS as an accountant and she explained the effect of her condition on her. Packett I cannot wash myself, wash my clothes, cook food, clear up after cooking food, post a letter, make a phone call. I mean if I just want to make a simple phone call I'd have to wait until I was able to do it which could be a week. White And what is it - and what is it that makes these things impossible to do? Packett If you keep trying to do things without resting you just come to a grinding halt. White So what effect would having a job have on your illness do you think? Packett Well it would be impossible, it would be impossible to have a job. I can't even manage my own domestic life, I probably wouldn't even get to wherever it was supposed to be to start with and if I got there I'd probably collapse within an hour or two. White Have you had work related assessments in the past? Packett I'm a little bit blurry about - they all seem to merge together but I've certainly been assessed and it was a horrible experience because there's a lot of doctors out there that still don't even believe in ME. When someone's got their head full of nonsense like that it doesn't matter what you say to them they just hear what they want to hear and write what they want to write. And it's a very humiliating, painful, very, very unpleasant experience. White How concerned are you about the extent of pressure you might be put under by what you know of what the government's proposals? Packett Well I did speak to James Purnell this morning and he said that it wasn't like that, not going to put pressure on genuinely ill people and expect them to do anything and he said well if you could work two hours a week and you could only work two hours a week for the next 10 years we'd like to enable you to do that. White How reassured are you by that? Packett Oh I am a little reassured but I think politicians say what is good to hear and what they actually do can be quite different. White Isn't the government right to say actually that most people would feel better for doing some kind of work and wouldn't that both financially and psychologically wouldn't that help most people's self respect? Packett Yes but there are shades of it and James Purnell - I've seen a quote of him saying not being at work is bad for your health. And yes that's true and to be isolated like I am a lot of the time and cut off from people is horrible, it's not good for you. But going to work if you're not capable of going to work is also extremely bad for your health. And a lot of ME sufferers will be sat there thinking well if I tried to go to work and someone forced me to do it I would be ill for weeks afterwards trying to recover or even years. Barclay Jemma Packett. So Peter who will enforce the changes when they come in? White Well the government haven't really answered this because they don't like the words enforced and disability in the same sentence. But basically disabled people will be allocated advisors, their role is to work with them on the kind of work related activity or work they can do. And basically if people continuously refuse to cooperate or indeed won't have medical examinations this might happen - I don't think you're going to see much of that, the government won't want that politically. Barclay Peter thanks for joining us. Back to the Transcripts homepage Back to the You and Yours homepage The 麻豆约拍 is not responsible for external websites

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