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10th December 2024

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 137

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Melanie Reid, you have just written the last instalment of the Spinal Column in the Times newspaper and you’re going to with me later in the episode for a big long chat but you’re also keeping me company at the start of the episode. Hello.Ìý

MELANIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Lovely to be with you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re asking everybody who’s come on in the last few weeks, we’re asking all our celebrities, our well-known people for their disability moment of 2024. What’s yours?

MELANIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý On a really beautiful sunny day, out on my disability scooter zipping around with the wind in my hair and just thinking, this is wonderful, I’m still alive, I’m still here to enjoy this. I’ve lost a lot of friends to cancer in the time I’ve been disabled, and there’s something fantastic about still being alive and being able to enjoy nature.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you for that, Melanie. And we want to hear more of your highlights, disability moments of 2024 because the year is drawing to a close; and we’re going to play some of them out on a special episode around Christmas time. So, do send them on to us 0330 123 9480 is the WhatsApp number. Or email them to accessall@bbc.co.uk. On with the show.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, I’m Emma Tracey and this is Access All, the podcast talking about the disability stuff that other shows just don’t. One woman who also never shies away from talking about tricky topics is The Times newspaper columnist Melanie Reid. She wrote her first Spinal Column two weeks after breaking her neck and back in a horse riding accident. And a few weeks ago she stopped; she wrote her very final one. And we will find out why later in the show.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But first, according to government statistics, which were last recorded in 2012, 36% of prisoners in England and Wales are disabled. On this episode we’re going to take a deep dive into that reality because Paralympian James Brown who was jailed in 2019 for causing a public nuisance and spent 10 weeks in prison was recently awarded almost 10 thousand pounds in compensation from the ministry of justice because his access needs were not met. We’ll also be hearing from the Recoop a charity which supports older prisoners. James Brown is a paralympic gold medallist, he’s a father of four, but he hit the headlines when he was arrested for gluing his hands to an airplane as part of an Extinction Rebellion protest in 2019. James is visually impaired, which I suppose for many people made the story all the more intriguing. To James’ surprise he was sentenced to 12 months in prison, and that was reduced to four months on appeal when James claimed that he was experiencing unique hardship inside due to his impairment. He was released after ten weeks, and James Brown is here with me to tell me his story. Hi James.

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi there, Emma.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you for coming in to Access All. What was life like for you, James, before 2019 in the lead up to 10th October, the day that you went on that protest?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Until sort of 2018 I’d been blissfully unaware of the climate crisis. My eyes were opened [laughingly] metaphorically and literally by my daughter who I met for a coffee one morning. She was in utter grief and I needed to know what was going on. I jumped into action and I said, ‘Well, what do we do?’ and so I joined Extinction Rebellion. 2019 I was involved in a protest at City Airport in London where I, as you say, climbed on top of a plane and then glued my hand to it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And when you were glued to the plane what happened next?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was there for just over an hour. The emergency services brought extra platforms alongside the plane so that they could work from there to bring me down safely.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And they brought you down safely?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And were you not thinking when you were up there of the people trying to go on their holidays, the staff, the problems in the airport that it was causing?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, of course. I mean, this is the big dilemma for those who take direct action is that disruption can occur and does occur.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When you were arrested what was that like? Had you ever been arrested before? What’s it like for a visually impaired person to be arrested?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I’ve been arrested. The very first time was in Bristol. Something quite interesting happened in custody, when you are taken into custody you are told by the custody sergeant that you have three rights: one is to speak to a solicitor; one is to make a phone call; and the third is to read a copy of the PACE code of practice, which is like the police code of practice document. So, I asked for a copy of it and they gave me a print copy. I said, ‘I can’t read print. Do you have it in any other format?’ and they didn’t. So, I actually asked that question a couple more times when I was in custody subsequently, and ultimately we took the issue to the Â鶹ԼÅÄ Office. And as a result of that protest, [laughs] mini protest if you like, there are now copies of the code of practice in other formats.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, the case went to trial, and you represented yourself, which fascinates me because that must have been tricky again in terms of accessibility etc?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it was very difficult. I was not in a good place at the time. One of the other things that really happened to me as a result of my discovery of the extent and the speed at which the crisis is heading towards us my mental health deteriorated very significantly.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, you had climate anxiety?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, exactly. It was pretty awful, I was crying most days, I just didn’t know what to do with myself. When it came to court again I think I wasn’t in the best place.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You were sentenced to 12 months in prison. Did you think for a moment you would go to prison?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I knew it was an outside possibility. My lawyer had said that because this was a fairly high-profile case that there was a possibility that I could get a prison sentence. And also because it was at an airport he felt that that would make a difference as well. So, yes I knew it was possible, but I didn’t think it was likely.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then the judge said when passing sentence that you had cynically used your disability and put your own life at risk to carry out that stunt. What is your response to that?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t really know what he meant by cynically using my disability. In terms of risking my own life I feel like a professional risk taker in a way anyway, you know, I’ve been a paralympic athlete all my life. I’ve cycled, I’ve skied, I’ve done all kinds of sports and taken all kinds of risks, so in terms of me being able to take care of my own safety I wasn’t concerned about that. But obviously from an outsider’s perspective I can see the point.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But what do you think he meant by cynically using your disability?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Maybe he meant that I would be first onto the plane because I was using the assistance service.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And that would make it easier for you to climb up and put your hand on?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And how do you feel about that, is that true?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It probably is, but if one is going to take such an action that’s got to be the least risky way to do it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And did you think maybe as a disabled person, as a visually impaired person you might have been treated differently in the justice system on the way through trial and everything, maybe more leniency?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, no more leniency, but certain adjustments were made. So, I was able to have somebody beside me in court; when I needed documents to be read out somebody was able to assist me with that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Tell me about the first day, the day you were sentenced and what happened, and what it was like for you as a visually impaired person.

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, prison isn’t great for any person. The British prison system is in chaos, there’s no question about that. that affects everybody. And I guess the additional challenges that I faced as a visually impaired person made it harder.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý In what way?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The first thing that really became apparent was the lack of any kind of induction, any familiarisation. I did have a meeting with the head of equalities just to bring up some issues that I faced. So, for example I was receiving quite a lot of mail. My wife had posted my glasses into the prison as soon as I got there, and those glasses weren’t given to me until week eight or nine.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what do those glasses do for you?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They help me to read print. They have a very strong single bubble lens in one eye and so I can read print at about an inch away or two, a couple of centimetres away. So, I didn’t have my glasses.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And you didn’t obviously have a smartphone which visually impaired people would use a magnifier on or they would scan the mail. You use your smartphone for all sorts of things that people use their eyes for.

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s not just for phone and reading and stuff; not that you would be expected to have one in prison, but you didn’t have any of those things.

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think maybe I was one of the few that didn’t have a phone.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh [laughs].

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I discovered towards the end how rife phone ownership is in prison.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Really?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh gosh, yes. The one thing that you could argue maybe that they did get right was that they put in place a personal evacuation plan.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý An old PIP, we all need those everywhere we go.

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The problem with that was that when the officer came to tell me that they had produced thisÌýÌýÌýÌý to me I asked whether they could go through it with me so that I could understand what the escape routes might be in the event of a fire and so on. And he said, ‘No, we don’t have time to do that’. I said, ‘Well, can you read me what’s on the document?’ he said, ‘No, it’s all right because we have a copy’. And then worse than that they put a big sign on my door, a big yellow sign with my full name on it and the fact that I was visually impaired, but the main thing was that it attracted quite a lot of undesirable attention to my door because people would see my name and then come over and open the little hatch and try to engage with me. There are lots of lovely people in prison, but there are also folk who are not quite so lovely and quite scary at times.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, what kind of unwanted attention did you get, James?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was very, very uncomfortable. I just felt it was unwanted attention and I was scared.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. And how did prisoners treat you generally?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s quite interesting [laughs], generally better than the staff did.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, let’s talk about the prisoners first. What way did they treat you? And did they treat you the same as their fellow prisoners? Differently?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I just want to look at one other of the problems that I faced and then I can kind of tie that into how I was supported. So, the way that you access information in prison in Wandsworth and many others is through what’s called a kiosk. So, it’s like a touchscreen computer on the wall in the hallway. Obviously I didn’t have any access to that, and other prisoners tried to help me with it. Even when I had asked the equalities team for dedicated assistance to use the kiosk that wasn’t forthcoming, so other people…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what sorts of things is the kiosk needed for?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý To order food, to order your meals, soap, writing paper, pens, stamps, you know, anything that you would buy from the shop.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, you didn’t have access to any of that unless a prisoner helped you?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Exactly. And the prison officers actively prevented other prisoners from supporting me in that way, [laughs] which was ironic. The other thing was that I didn’t know what I didn’t know, so there’s a whole host of stuff on this kiosk, and I only learned this towards the end. So, in order to make a complaint about something the way you do that is to fill in a form on the kiosk. I didn’t know that. So, I wasn’t able to complain about the fact that my glasses hadn’t come. I wasn’t able to complain about the fact that I had been fairly badly treated by an officer who was taking me to a dental appointment and noticed me tripping, she wouldn’t guide me. She noticed me tripping over a very low gate outside in the dark, and when I asked her for assistance she just point blank refused. But it turned out she had a specific sort of issue with protestors, so.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. And in terms of other officers how were you treated by them?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Definitely no special treatment. There was one officer in particular who consistently prevented other prisoners from supporting me. So, if somebody came to my door, if I’d met somebody in the corridor when we were out in the social time and asked them for some assistance with the kiosk, the officer in charge wouldn’t let them provide that assistance.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And why?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m not really sure. I think they have a regime, they want to implement it. They’re short-staffed, they find it very hard to recruit and retain staff, they’re always short-staffed. We experienced 23-hour day lockdowns, sometimes 48-hour lockdowns where we simply weren’t allowed out of our cells at all, and that was just staff shortages.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And were there some prison staff that were nice to you and did help you?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There was a lovely Quaker lady who came as a prison visitor and she was able to get me audio CDs and a CD player from the library. One of the things I was really worried about was boredom.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t watch TV and there is a TV in the cell. Luckily my cellmate wasn’t a big TV watcher either. So, yes I was able to get a CD player and some CD audiobooks. Obviously they weren’t to my choice.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What did you end up reading?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh god, the sort of stuff you would just never choose on your own. In fact that was quite a lot of sort of crime related stuff they had in the CD library.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh interesting. Like crime fiction?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, crime fiction.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Or how to commit a crime [laughter].

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, how to get out of Wandsworth. There was one nurse as well who was particularly helpful. She was assessing me as I arrived at prison and she was minded to put me in what they call a medical cell because of my sight impairment.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s the difference between a medical cell and a normal?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I guess maybe, well it’s a single cell rather than a double cell. It’s closer to medical services. But she also then noticed that I was chatting to a chap that had come in at the same time as me. He was also an older white man, educated, middle class, and the two of us hit it off. She noticed that so she made representations and managed to get us into the same cell. That was very, very helpful because he, Steve, was able to read me my mail and provide other assistance as well. So, when it was laundry day he would go and get involved in the scramble for clean sheets so it meant I didn’t have to do that. So, in terms of assistance he was great.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’ve mentioned being a Paralympian a couple of times, you’ve been a cyclist, you’ve skied, you’ve done other sports. How did that serve you in prison?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý On the rare occasion when we did get out into the exercise yard I was so frustrated being pent up in the cell I would go straight into a full exercise routine of push-ups and squats and step-ups and pull-ups and da, da, da. And for the other prisoners to see somebody who’s nearly 60 out there exercising in the way that nobody else was…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, and somebody who’s disabled and someone who probably they might have thought was vulnerable.

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, that’s right. I mean, I had my white stick with me all the time; I never left my cell without it. So, yes, when I was out in the yard it was very obvious to everybody that I was visually impaired.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And did that change perceptions do you think?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it brought me quite a lot of kudos. I was able to do more pull-ups than the young lads, and they’re always competing amongst themselves, and then along comes this old blind guy with a white stick [laughter], you know.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Tell me about the role the white stick played?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý For me it was protection. I made that judgement in prison and I used it every single time I left the cell. My eyes don’t look straight, so I have been in a situation in the outside world occasionally where people have misconstrued the way that I’ve been looking at them. And I didn’t want that happening in prison surrounded by potentially violent people. So, that was one of the reasons for having a stick. And on one occasion when I did bump into somebody again, doesn’t happen a lot but does occasionally, some guy did turn to swing at me and somebody prevented him, one of the other prisoners prevented him because they saw my stick and they said, ‘No, no, don’t hit the blind man’.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. So, were you ever physically hit or assaulted or anything?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, I wasn’t. There’s the stereotypical shower room scenario where people worry about being in the showers and stuff like that, but it was actually more of a common room, a social area. And if somebody would come out of their shower cubicle and saw me waiting they would give me a shout and say, ‘James, the second door on the left is open, ready for you’.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s good [laughter]. So, when you were released after ten weeks you didn’t let go of the issues that had befallen you in prison around access and treatment. What happened?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I spoke to a human rights lawyer and said look, the prison did not serve me well. In addition to all the other challenges that everybody faces in prison I was denied my glasses for almost the entire time I was there. My cellmate wasn’t and he was fully sighted. I was denied any work opportunities and was simply told that those wouldn’t be available to me because I was visually impaired. I had no access to information, no sports, the kiosk, no proper induction, so it really was a big struggle. And they definitely failed in a number of areas to support me as a disabled person. So, we took a case of discrimination against the Ministry of Justice to the court and recently settled out of court on that matter.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, you got some money from them?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, I did.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And do you feel vindicated? Do you feel like it’s been resolved?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it’s some compensation. I mean, I think, just like the issue with the PACE code of practice document I would like to see something more done. Like I said on that particular issue it was taken to the Â鶹ԼÅÄ Office and changes have been made. So, I don’t know whether my treatment in prison and the compensation that they’ve had to pay me will make things any better for anybody else. I doubt it I’m afraid.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How much did you ask for and how much did you receive?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We asked initially for 20,000, then we reduced it to 12,000 and settled on 9,500.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And are you going to pursue the rights of disabled prisoners any further or is that something you need to let go for yourself just now?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I’m trying to build up my business again and get my life back together. The mental health challenges that I faced as a result of the climate crisis and prison take time to work through. I’ve had a lot of therapy, I am starting to feel better. So, yeah, it’s just really a case of trying to put my life back together post-prison, and then I’ll decide what to do after that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. I’m going to read a statement from the Ministry of Justice. A prison service spokesperson said, ‘We apologise to Mr Brown and this matter has now been resolved. Offenders in prison are entitled to request reasonable adjustments, and we encourage all instances of discrimination to be reported.’ What’s your response to that, James?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it’s really interesting, isn’t it? I mean, in terms of reasonable adjustments one would have thought that the first thing they could have done would have been to give me my glasses. I remember the equalities team came to see me in my cell, I brought this up with her, and this was about week 8, so towards the end of my time there, and she actually turned around and said to me, ‘Well, I don’t understand why somebody with as little sight as you’ve got would need glasses’.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, so there was a lack of awareness and understanding?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, within the equalities team.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý In terms of your activism are you going to pick that up again? Or again, are you just putting yourself together just now?

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I’m getting my life back together. Like I say, I run a very important business that provides services for other disabled people, and I’m building that back up again. In terms of activism, I’m very interested in other aspects. Activism doesn’t just need to mean being out of the streets and taking direct action; there’s a lot of stuff that goes on in the background, so I’m looking at some of those other options at the moment.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý James Brown, thank you for speaking to me on Access All.

JAMES-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you, it’s been a pleasure.

MUSIC-

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Joining me now is Paul Grainge from the charity Recoop, who support men and women like James who are over 50 and who are in prison. Many of them are serving long sentences inside for murder, violent robbery and other crimes. A significant number of those prisoners are disabled, which can be challenging in many ways. Hi Paul, you’re very welcome.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Good morning. Great to be here and to be able to talk about this hidden and marginalised group.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s great to be able to chat about it with you as well. What are the biggest issues facing disabled people in prison in the UK, Paul?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think first and foremost prisons are not geared up to support people with disabilities; 18%, nearly one in five, are over 50 and are presenting with lots of different ailments. There was some recent research that came out of the MoJ that suggested that 90% of prisoners over 50 have at least one moderate or severe health condition, and over 50% have three or more. So, that makes it really difficult for staff to be able to provide the regime adaptations that are needed just to support someone with a disability in a prison environment.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what sort of stories have you heard from the people you support about the hardship they’ve faced as a disabled or ill person in prison?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When the Care Act came in in 2014 that set the responsibility to the local authority to come in and provide that care for those that needed Care Act assessments and care packages. Although what I would say is that that comes with own difficulties, trying to get a domiciliary care provider to come in, they have to be vetted, they have to be screened, they’re only in there long enough to help someone get dressed, but it might be that someone who’s neurodivergent that needs perhaps someone just to sit with them, to listen, there isn’t that time and that capacity to be able to do that. Not all local authorities are working in all the prisons providing this type of support. And it takes a long time to get some of those assessments done. So, if someone comes in there isn’t a set 28 days for someone to get assessed; someone could deteriorate really quite quickly.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And tell me about prisoners who are wheelchair users. Are prisons set up for wheelchair users?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The old Victorian estate certainly isn’t, and you can’t get stairlifts or lifts added in many because they’re just not geared up for it. So, that is an acute problem that the Ministry of Justice are aware of. I know there is an estate strategy, but if there aren’t ramps it’s not easy to be able to move someone around. Some departments, so it might be that the education department or a library is up a set of stairs, so if you’re in a wheelchair you can’t go there, so you might be stuck on the wings and the landings where you live and you’re not able to access other parts of the prison to be able to get that cognitive stimulation or to do a course that you need to, or to be inclusive and do some work with your peers and feel that actually you’re being able to do something.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what about inside a cell? So, say if someone uses a mobility scooter or a chair in the corridors, can they get that inside their cell? How accessible are cells?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Certainly some of the old Victorian cells, certainly for somewhere like Dartmoor you can’t get a mobility scooter or wheelchair in through the doors. So, if someone is there that is particularly difficult, they will need some assistance getting in and out of their cells and moving around.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Are there issues around being an older woman in prison specifically who is ill or disabled?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re just about to start our menopause support group in some female prisons in the southeast. But some of the ailments are those that perhaps are the menopause, and again the side effects of medication. I’m just thinking of sweats, trying to get your bedding washed and washed yourselves when you actually need it rather than when a time is allocated in the prison regime is sometimes problematic, and it’s not good for self-esteem if someone has also perhaps got incontinence problems. So, there’s lots of different aggravators for someone that might be disabled, whether you’re male or female.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There are fewer women in prison than there are men, does that mean that a lot of different types of women are in the same spaces more than happens with men? And if so is the chaos of that quite tricky if maybe you’ve got mental health struggles or are neurodivergent etc?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There are some big concerns in the female estate. Because there are so few prisons different category female prisoners in one prison, so you’ve got everything from high risk to someone who is low risk that it’s difficult to get that balance right of segregation. And the self-harm rates in the female estate are increasing. They are a real big concern. There’s a lot of work that needs to be done to address the emotional wellbeing and mental health of females in prison.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý James Brown is on this episode of the podcast, and he’s blind, he’s over 50, and he went to prison for ten weeks and he talked quite a lot about how his peers in prison supported and helped him. How important and how involved are fellow prisoners with helping and supporting disabled prisoners?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m so pleased you asked me that because I think the role of the voluntary sector and the role of peer support models is really, really important. They understand the environment, they live and breathe the same air, they have the same experience. That trust that can be built and that empathic ability that they have to support someone where there isn’t the operational stretch to be able to do that. So, the domiciliary care that will come in and perhaps help someone get dressed that’s disabled, they’re only there for a matter of minutes. That peer support that can sit there with someone, that can go and advocate for them, that can go to a healthcare appointment with them and describe how someone might be deconditioning or self-isolating, and the risk of loneliness that might be coming in, so that they could actually put in that wraparound support, is really key.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, so interesting the role of fellow prisoners in supporting disabled prisoners. Thank you for telling us about that.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re welcome. And thank you for being able to shine a light on some of these things and some of the good work that’s going on.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Paul Grainge from Recoop charity, thank you for joining me on Access All.

MUSIC-

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Writer and journalist Melanie Reid is one of The Times newspaper’s best known contributors. For 14 years she has penned Spinal Column, all about her life as a tetraplegic and a wheelchair user, after falling from a horse in 2010. But a few weeks ago Melanie wrote her very final instalment. Now, she was a very, very successful reporter in Scottish affairs before her accident, but Spinal Column brought her a new audience. And she was honoured with an MBE for services to journalism and disability. Melanie, it’s an end of an era.

MELANIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s been a big period in my life and it’s meant a lot to me. It’s been a vital lifeline my column since I had my accident. But it was time. I felt I should go out on a high. My priority now is to look after my husband and things like that.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s really interesting you talk about looking after your husband and that being one of the reasons to finish this column that has been so regular and so successful and so interesting to people looking in on it. Because up to 25% of unpaid carers in the UK are actually disabled, and I don’t think most people know that. And I just wonder what form that will take of looking after Dave, your husband, and what you’ll be doing?

MELANIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Dave is a little bit older than me and he’s run into rocky times. The big thing about disability that able-bodied people don’t realise is it’s really hard physical work looking after yourself. Everything takes not just twice as long, everything takes four times as long sometimes. There’s this daily grind of looking after your bodily functions and just moving your body around in an environment which isn’t built for you. I just didn’t have enough time or bandwidth left to be able to do work, look after myself and care for someone I love dearly who made huge sacrifices for me after my accident and cared for me. So, I decided to go with grace. Leave them wanting more, isn’t that the old showbiz thing? So, I decided to go out on a high rather than hang around and wait to be paid off and sacked.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t know about sacked now, Melanie. It’s really interesting because I’ve heard you talk about that you’re stopping the column so that you can do this for yourself and for Dave, and you’re not going to continue to write about that process of the two of you going through slightly similar things maybe in terms of care etc. When actually when you had the accident in 2010 within two weeks you were writing about in really, really raw terms. I mean, you said in your first column ‘In the space of 15 minutes I’ve gone from someone whom I considered to be a fairly high-achieving mistress of her universe, to what looks like a tetraplegic’. Why did you want to share that level of detail straightaway and then continue to share it with your audience?

MELANIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Journalists are born with a desire to communicate. They recognise a good story. And in this very dark, dark way as soon as this happened to me I realised wow, this is a story. Very few people, fortunately, get to go to this dark place where I’m in and experience this absolute loss, divorce, bereavement from their bodies, and how extraordinary it is, how weird it is. I wanted to communicate that. At the same time it was an emotional life saver; it was a way of expressing bewilderment, grief, it was a way of processing, trying to understand this absolutely traumatic thing that had happened to me. It was pretty visceral. And The Times was amazing, they let me write in very raw detail about some of the indignities that every paralysed person goes through.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý On Access All we’re a disability and mental health podcast so we talk about the nitty-gritty all the time and the minutiae, we call it, of being disabled and being a disabled person. And the other side of it that you’ve talked a lot about are the tricky emotions, and emotions that disabled people and non-disabled people would find sometimes hard to read I think. And one of those from a very early column was jealousy towards non-disabled people or people who hadn’t got paralysis. What were you trying to convey by sharing these sorts of emotions and, you know, difficult things to say out loud? Maybe not difficult for you, but difficult to hear sometimes.

MELANIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You end up expressing stuff that a lot of people don’t express. That was part of the emotional journey. I think here we should also make a distinction between acquired disability and disabilities which you are born with or you acquire in early life, because I think the two things are very different. You grow up very differently, you learn to appreciate what you have and you haven’t got. But when you’ve gone through life and you reach middle age and you’re fit and healthy and complacent and a bit arrogant about your body and something dreadful happens, you feel this immense sense of loss and being cheated and of, who am I now, I’m not the person who can go to a gym and run 10ks and be very sort of quietly arrogant about how tall and strong I was. You’re just a lump, you know, you’ve lost everything: you’ve lost your femininity, you’ve lost your allure, you’ve lost the ability to wear nice clothes or look at yourself in the mirror and be a little bit proud of yourself.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And do you still feel like that, Melanie?

MELANIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh god, yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s hard for maybe someone who’s had a similar level of injury to you and has maybe taken a different approach and has a different mindset around that to read. Do you have connections with other people in your situation? And do you have an affinity with people in the same position as you?

MELANIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Some people are paralysed and they manage to cope with it amazingly and they get over it and they rebuild their lives. And I’ve just been very raw about it. It is a kind of post-traumatic stress disorder I think; I think I probably suffer some form of that, and a lot of that is that loss of identity. It’s very primal stuff.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And have you created a new identity for yourself? What is your identity now 14 years on?

MELANIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The me that I think of is not me in a wheelchair, Mel. But I get on with it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, you still see yourself as before in your head?

MELANIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. That’s the thing about acquired disability: there’s the people you knew from before and the people you meet afterwards. And now when I meet people who I feel I wish I had the same status that I used to have in terms of height and ability. And that’s where I want to tap my breastbone and say, [voice breaking] the person in the wheelchair that you see that’s not the real me; the real me is…[crying].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s obviously very painful.

MELANIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. The real me is probably off somewhere mucking out a horse or, you know, cutting down brambles or pulling out weeds or, I don’t know, the real me was off doing something roughty-tufty. Forgive me for getting upset. But you know it’s… especially when the person that used to care for you is someone that you need to care for. That’s been another whammy. I’m going to have a sip of coffee and that’ll make me get a bit of backbone.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, while you’re having your sip of coffee, let me, it’s… Absolutely do not apologise for getting upset. It makes me feel sad because I feel like you’re as fabulous as you were before, and that you’ve been honoured with an MBE for services to journalism and to disabled people. But you’ve also, [laughs] from my perspective as a disabled journalist and a disability-focused journalist for 20 years, you’ve often said the other thing: so many disabled people with loud voices will give one opinion and you will give the other one or a different one or a differently-nuanced one. And while I’ve often found that difficult to read, I’ve really, really, really respected that. And I think your work you make me laugh and you’re an awesome writer, I don’t always agree with what you’re saying. But do you feel like you’re a bit of a disability campaigner in some way? Are you proud of yourself? What did you feel about the MBE?

MELANIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I’ve raised awareness of spinal injury. I think I moved the dial on that a bit. I think that at the time my accident happened, which is just short of 15 years, disability wasn’t talked about nearly as much. It wasn’t on the agenda, there wasn’t the kind of awareness and kindness that there is now, the space and respect given to disability that there is now. Okay, it’s not perfect, but 15 years ago there wasn’t anything like that.

EMMA- ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Tell me, do you really think that disability is mainstream now?

MELANIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When I started writing about grotty stuff and the limited life that you lead, when I started writing about that in the mainstream media I think it was a first. And there was this large, large number, this many, many thousands of people who live life in the shadows, who are a little bit invisible, who felt that here’s somebody who’s seeing our life suddenly the way we see it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Times readers in your position who maybe weren’t reflected in the paper before?

MELANIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, Spinal Column has finished after 14 years, so maybe there is a space opening up for a disabled writer to write more about their lives.

MELANIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Melanie Reid, thank you for joining me on Access All.

MELANIE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s been lovely to join you, Emma.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That is it for this episode of Access All. Thank you so much to my guests, and thanks to you for listening. I really love hearing from you. As you know, I absolutely adore a WhatsApp voice message so do keep sending those to me. Pop the word Access at the beginning which makes them easier to find, and send them to the number 0330 123 9480. I love an email to, accessall@bbc.co.uk is the email address. And you can find us on our social media X and Instagram @Â鶹ԼÅÄAccessAll. Please subscribe to us, if you haven’t already, and you’ll get us onto your device every week without doing another thing. Just go to Â鶹ԼÅÄ Sounds and hit that big subscribe button. I would really appreciate that. Thanks for listening. Bye.Ìý

[Trailer for Newscast]

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You know when you’re worried about something, but then you talk to your friend who knows more about the subject than you do, and straightaway you start to feel better? That’s what we try and do every day on Newscast.

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, they’re saying that that would be simple to do, it would give everyone certainty.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We talk to people who are in the news:

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You were chasing me round with a plate of cheese.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We talk to people who know what’s going on in the news:

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý At least I didn’t get up and slap anybody.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We talk to people who understand what the news means:

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think that he’s decided he’s going to listen, and then he might just intervene.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And we talk to the best Â鶹ԼÅÄ journalists, asking the most important questions:

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s wrong with chinos? You don’t want them, people to start wearing chinos?

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Don’t start me, Chris.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s Newscast from Â鶹ԼÅÄ News, the podcast that knows a lot of people who know a lot about the news.

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I was like, go on Kate, put some more welly into it!

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Listen to Newscast every weekday on Â鶹ԼÅÄ Sounds.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m glad I asked that.

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m very glad that you asked that!