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3rd December 2024

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 136

Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s December, the year is drawing to a close, and here on Access All we’ve been looking back at the past 12 months, and what a time it’s been. And here’s a little reminder of some of our highlights:

[Clips]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I am so delighted to have two VIPs in the Access All studio today. James Owen and his legendary football dad, Michael Owen.

MICHAEL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s very difficult. You want to take all the pain away. You want to swap with him. If I could give him my eyes and we’d do a swap then I would tomorrow of course.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Recently I got the opportunity to visit the MI5 headquarters.

LIAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I actually became a senior manager in MI5 after I had been diagnosed as autistic. So, from my own experience my biggest significant career developments happened after I worked out I was neurodiverse.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý As part of our General Election coverage we’ve been putting your questions and concerns and we’ve been exploring their policies around disability and mental health. Mims Davies, thank you for joining me.

MIMS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Angela Rayner.

ANGELA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you, it’s great to be here.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ed Davey, Thank you for joining me.

ED-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Liz Saville Roberts from Plaid Cymru.

LIZ-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s great to be invited to join you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Mags Lewis from the Green Party, thank you for joining me.

MAGS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Pleasure.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Marion Fellows from the Scottish National Party.

MARION-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you for having me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Welcome to the Access All podcast at the Edinburgh Festival! Political comedian, Matt Forde [cheers and applause]. I’m sure Trump would have some interesting things to say about disability.

MATT-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, it’s totally made up, by the way. Disability is not a scientific thing. Emma, I think what you’re doing is so sad. [Laughter and applause].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s Adam Hills! [Cheers and applause]

ADAM-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think when you’ve got a disability it sometimes forces you to either become more positive or more negative. I like to think I’ve gone more positive with my, you know, disability. I like to think my shoes are half full.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Bonjour, ça va? I am here in Paris for the 17th Summer Paralympic Games, and I cannot tell you how excited I am. [Cheers] we’ve just come out of the swimming at La Défense Arena, and honestly what a buzz. And it was so exciting and so thrilling to see Callie-Ann Warrington and Faye Rogers get their medals.

[End of clips]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That is just a little sample of all the things we got up to this year on Access All. What a year! What a year it’s been! But we want to know what your disability moment has been from 2024. Was it the Paralympics, as you heard there? Was it our little visit to Edinburgh? Probably not. Was it something that happened in your life? Tell us, get in touch with us in all the usual ways. You can email accessall@bbc.co.uk. You can find us on the socials, X and Instagram @Â鶹ԼÅÄAccessAll. Or you could send us a WhatsApp message, either a voice or a text. Pop the word Access at the beginning of it, which helps us to find your message, and send it to 0330 123 9480. On with the show!

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, I’m Emma Tracey, and this is Access All, the podcast that celebrates disabled people. And the whole word is celebrating disabled people this week as we mark International Day of People with Disabilities. Yay! What better way to do that than to go back into history. It’s Disability History Month and I’m going to be talking to a historian a little bit later on. The theme this year is disability and employment, and I’ll be finding about how disabled people got on in the workplace down through the centuries. But first, I get to play with some toys. And they call this work?

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý As gift buying ramps up for Christmas – it really is ramping up; I have been in town recently and it’s absolute bedlam – so in preparation for that Lego have launched some toys which have the sunflower lanyard. Now, this is a brightly coloured lanyard which is designed to alert people who need to know that the person wearing it has a hidden disability and might need some extra time or space or a different adjustment. So, it's kind of helping hidden disabilities be more visible to people who need to know about them. Jayden and her mum, Tasha, are here with me in the studio. Now, Jayden has long QT wave syndrome, a life-threatening heart condition with no visible signs. But first, let’s hear from Paul White, who’s the CEO of Hidden Disabilities Sunflower Lanyard, the organisation which introduced and operates the lanyard. Paul, thank you for joining me on Access All.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m very pleased to be here, Emma. Nice to speak to you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Paul, I explained a little bit about what the sunflower lanyard is, but what would you say it is?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, the sunflower is a simple tool for somebody to wear to demonstrate they have a non-visible condition. And it’s a choice; people choose to wear the sunflower to show that they have a condition that isn’t immediately obvious. And it enables others to give that person that extra bit of time, care, patience, understanding, or maybe simple kindness that they need just to get through their day.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, it feels like something that might be able to be picked up by anybody and could potentially be abused. People maybe who don’t need to wear it, wear it so that they can maybe jump a queue?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, we don’t have to ask for proof of person, and that’s really because of the number of people who haven’t got a diagnosis or a diagnosis just isn’t available, so something like anxiety for instance. But what the sunflower does is it provides the person the ability to identify that they have a condition that isn’t obvious. And it doesn’t give you the ability to jump a queue, as you say, or anything else; it just gives you the ability to demonstrate that fact. And it gives others the ability to be able to see that there is something going on that isn’t immediately obvious.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sure. So, what kinds of businesses sign up to carry these sunflower lanyards?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Any business where the customers are visiting is initially where the sunflower was very successful. It was started in Gatwick Airport in 2016 when they recognised that they could see people with a visible disability, but what about all these people whose disabilities weren’t visible. And obviously you only go to an airport for one reason, and it quickly grew from airport to airport, and then people naturally travelled further afield from that airport. So, all types of businesses and organisations now support the sunflower, whether that be in retail or that be in leisure or that be in travel. The sunflower really has got a presence. There are over 400,000 businesses across the globe now that provide or support the sunflower. We are now recognised in 80 countries.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How many lanyards are in circulation?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, to date we have provided over 4 million lanyards.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wow. I mean, that’s eight years on, it’s not very long. It’s a newish thing. So, a symbol you had made changed people’s lives. That must be an incredible feeling. What kinds of stories do people tell you?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý One story that always resonates with me is I had an email from a gentleman who used to play walking football with his mates down at the local sports club. And he had dementia, and his wife used to drive him to the sports club. And the bus company recognised and supported the sunflower, and because of that he was able to get the bus on his own. And he messaged me to say that for the first time since he was diagnosed with dementia he finally had something that he could do independently. And that really affected me as a person and I thought, you know what, this has got more than me just creating and selling lanyards; this has got an opportunity to really do something for society.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I’ve got two lovely people in front of me wearing the sunflower lanyard. We’ve got Jayden and Jayden’s mum, Tasha. Jayden, tell me about the condition that you have which means that the sunflower is useful?

JAYDEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, the condition I have is long QT syndrome. It can cause things like arrhythmias and it can cause cardiac arrest, it can also cause fainting, seizures, and also sudden cardiac death.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what symptoms do you have, Jayden?

JAYDEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sometimes I get palpitations, sometimes I get out of breath, and sometimes I feel dizzy from it because it can be triggered by loud noises or exercise and just things like that, or even emotional stress as well.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That sounds like stuff that might happen to you when you’re at school, Jayden.

JAYDEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Definitely.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you wear the lanyard at school? And if so how does it help you there?

JAYDEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I do because it’s just nice to show people that I have a disability without actually having to say it as well. But I feel like it needs to have a bit more recognition in schools because I’ve had lots of people come and say, oh what’s this, why are you wearing that, not knowing what it’s actually for. It has a lot of recognition in supermarkets and other places, but I feel like schools there should be more assemblies surrounding it just to know that oh, this person has it so you need to be aware of it in case something happens.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Tasha, you’re Jayden’s mum, you’re disabled yourself and you have four children who have hidden disabilities. How does the lanyard get used in your house?

TASHA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, we mainly use it when we’re going out and about, mainly in the supermarkets or if we’re going on holidays, especially for my youngest one who’s four years old, she’s also autistic. We didn’t use it when she was much younger, like say for instance she was two, three; we only started using it when she turned four. She’s now turned five a few weeks ago. But obviously in the supermarket it’s very noisy, it’s very loud, there’s lots of different smells, the temperature changes, it’s cold, it’s hot. So, she would have tantrums and meltdowns and people would look at us and give us looks, like, you know, in disgrace, like what a naughty child, just tutting.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And actually do people recognise the lanyard enough now to leave you alone or to help when they see?

TASHA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I would say that now in the supermarkets, she’s wearing it now, we have had a few people who work. For instance in a supermarket, in a Sainsbury’s I can say there was an incident, a time where she was kicking off about something, she was feeling really overwhelmed, and a lady came over, she recognised she was wearing the lanyard and said, ‘Do you want to come and have a look at what we’ve got on the shelves over here?’ So it was a distraction technique she used because she recognised that she had that. But I feel as though if she didn’t have that she may have just looked at her and just thought, goodness me, as it was before. But since wearing the sunflower lanyard in supermarkets it’s made life a little bit easier for all of us.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Does it make you a little bit more relaxed going out?

TASHA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Definitely relaxed more going out. Definitely for myself as well in the supermarkets because immediately I will get assistance, somebody will say, ‘Would you like some help to pack your bags? Is there anything that we can do for you or to get for you?’ And obviously when I don’t wear it I don’t get that help.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right. And you have a self-help group, Tasha, how were you inspired to set this up? What happened?

TASHA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, I’ve always struggled with my I would say hidden disabilities for years. I felt like an imposter or a fraudster because on the outside I looked perfectly well. And I think that there’s a lot of misconception around what a disability should look like. If you’re not in a wheelchair or you don’t have a frame or you don’t have a walking stick then you’re deemed as you’re absolutely fine. And I wanted to do something about that. I’ve been challenged, I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve been challenged for parking in a Blue Badge designated space.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right. So, you just wanted to raise more awareness so people wouldn’t challenge you?

TASHA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý To raise awareness, that was the initial goal. But it’s grown into something huge now and it’s beautiful, and it’s become a beacon of hope for a number of individuals with disabilities.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, there’s these toys here and they’re from Lego and they have the sunflower lanyard. Can we have a look at those?

JAYDEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sure.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Will you show me them? Shall I crawl over to you here? Oh, I remember Duplo from when my kids were little, okay. And does it have a lanyard on just now?

JAYDEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it’s like a printed lanyard on the front.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý On the front.

TASHA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý His name is Ryan. He’s wearing ear defenders.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Let’s have a feel.

TASHA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý He has a suitcase in his hand; he’s clearly going abroad. He’s got red shorts and a green t-shirt and wearing a hidden disability sunflower.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I bet your four year-old likes to play with this? I remember Duplo from when my ones were little.

TASHA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When she saw this immediately, she’s normally monotone, but yesterday it was like, ‘That looks just like me, mummy, because he’s got ear defenders and they’re blue like mine. And look, he’s wearing the lanyard’. So, she felt like I’m not the only one, and it’s okay to have ear defenders and also wear the lanyard.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, for goodness sake, why are there not more toys like this?

TASHA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This is 2024. Now, going back to you, Paul, you’ve been listening to all of this. You were involved in the process of creating all these toys, weren’t you. What was that process like?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was very exciting actually. The way that Ryan, for instance, is in an environment where he would need ear defenders being in an airport, because to me it says that Ryan has some kind of sensory issue and he needs to reduce the sound, and the fact that he’s wearing a sunflower. And really, again for me, it’s how that will hopefully evoke a conversation between parents and children and children and parents as to what the sunflower means. And that can only be a good thing for sunflower wearers in general.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Paul, how can people get a sunflower lanyard if they need one?

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý If they go onto our site, which is hdsunflower.com you’ll see a map, and that map shows all of the locations you can pick one up for free.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Paul White, from Hidden Disabilities Sunflower Lanyard, and lovely Tasha and Jayden, thank you very much for being here on Access All to talk about toys because it’s made my day.

JAYDEN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much for having us.

TASHA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much.

PAUL-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thanks for having us.

MUSIC-

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It is Disability History Month in the UK at the moment, and this year’s theme is employment and livelihood. So, what better time to take a deep dive into the subject of disabled people and work throughout the centuries. And what better man to do it with than Professor David Turner. He is an expert in disability history from Swansea University. Hi, David.

DAVID-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, it’s great to be here.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý David, Disability History Month has been going on for quite a few years; why does it exist and why should we mark it?

DAVID-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, yeah, it was founded at the beginning of the last decade as a way of raising people’s awareness of disability more generally, and of the really rich and interesting histories that disabled people have had over the years. It’s just really important to have a focus on disability, particularly around the International Day of Disabled Persons on 3rd December, and to think about different themes affecting disabled people’s lives. So, there’s a different theme for Disability History Month each year, and this year it’s about employment and livelihood.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. And every time I research disability history, David Turner, your name pops up. And I just wondered what inspired you to focus on disabled people’s histories. What’s your connection with it?

DAVID-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A couple of things got me into it. One is that I’ve always been a social historian, so I’m always interested in stories of people who we haven’t heard of before and the fascinating lives that ordinary people have led in the past. And as I was researching I found that disabled people’s voices were absent from mainstream history, so I really wanted to bring disabled people back into the picture.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And what time periods and what sort of people have you tended to focus on in your work?

DAVID-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, it covers quite a lot actually. My work I suppose starts back in the 17th century with the first welfare laws which were brought in in Britain at the beginning of the 17th century, the 1601 Poor Law.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, that’s like benefits?

DAVID-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s benefits, yeah. That’s the first sort of national system of welfare which provides some support, some limited support for people with a range of impairments. So, it starts there and it goes pretty much up to the present day.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay. So, let’s stick with the benefits for aÌý minute. What did they look like in the 1600s and what kinds of disabled people did they serve? And then how did they develop and change over the years?

DAVID-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The benefits really were aimed at people who were defined, not as disabled because that word wasn’t used very widely outside of the context of the military at that time, but it was to help people who were defined as impotent. And this is a very broad term covering a whole range of impairments. But to be defined as impotent meant that you weren’t able to support yourself through your own work, or at least not being able to live through your own labour. So, the first system of welfare was based on trying to provide some support for those people who lacked other forms of assistance. It wasn’t particularly generous, and there were all kinds of moral criteria for determining who was eligible to get support.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ooh, like what?

DAVID-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, you had to be of good moral character. So, unlike the benefits system today which is based on measuring incapacity, in the past it was much more about your honesty, your reliability, your good Christian conduct which was seen as important factors in determining whether you could get support.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Tell me, what kind of work did disabled people do over the years?

DAVID-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý All kinds really. I’ve found disabled people doing some kinds of work which you might find surprising. So, recently I’ve done some research on disability in the coal industry in the age of the Industrial Revolution, and I was really surprised to find people with missing limbs working underground in coal mines in the early 19th century. There was this expectation that people would go back to work after accidents, of which there were very many in those kinds of environments.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And were they not worried about the risk to other people and the risk to those people with the missing limbs?

DAVID-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That becomes an increasing issue as time goes on because by the end of the 19th century you’ve got workmen’s compensation laws, which makes an employer liable for any accident in the workplace. At which point they become very concerned about any disabled person working for them who might be a risk to themselves and to other people because they might have to pay out these compensation claims. But earlier on there’s much less of that; the risk was taken on by individuals. And actually in some cases disabled workers might have been valued in those kinds of dangerous roles because they’d had experience of accidents. So, you’d find some disabled miners working as supervisors providing safety advice to other workers, perhaps it’s because of their own experience of surviving an accident that gave them greater authority to speak out about those kinds of issues.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s really interesting actually. What about the disabled people telling the stories of other disabled people? James Wilson seems like an interesting character.

DAVID-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý He’s an incredibly interesting character. So, he lost his sight as a young child due to smallpox, like many people did at that time. But he went on to have various careers. He wrote the very first disability history, which came out in 1821, it’s called Biography of the Blind. So, he talks about the great and the good, so there are famous writers and scientists and musicians.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s changed in terms of how disabled people are viewed and how life is for disabled people in terms of better or worse in the last 200, 300 years, David, do you think from your perspective looking at it from a historical perspective?

DAVID-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s such a huge question, isn’t it? In many ways things have got better. We’ve got much more positive representation I think in the media today. Disability rights are now enshrined in law, albeit imperfectly. And technology and medical science is enabling people to live longer and more fulfilling lives. All these things are improvements. But I think we need to be wary about seeing history as just a march of progress from a time when everything was terrible for disabled people to an age where everything is great, because clearly we know that’s not the case today. And also when we look at the past actually we find disabled people living rich and fulfilling and interesting lives. So, I think it’s really important to tell those stories. It’s such a cliché I think to say that people in the past didn’t understand disabled people or didn’t understand disability, therefore they feared it. Which they did and people do today, but at the same time disability was just a part of everybody’s lives. I read a medical report from the early 1830s about people living in Leeds which estimated that only 10% of the population enjoyed full health; so 90% of the population is sick or disabled in some way. But I think it shows you that disability was really prevalent in the past and people would have understood it, people would have expected it to be part of their own lives and their families’ lives and would have found ways of living with it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Professor David Turner from Swansea University, thank you very much for joining me on Access All and giving me a bit of a history lesson this Disability History Month.

DAVID-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That is it for this episode of Access All. Thank you to my guests and thank you for listening. Please, if you like what you hear, hit that big subscribe button on Â鶹ԼÅÄ Sounds, and you will get Access All onto your device every week without doing one thing. Thanks for listening. See you soon. Bye.

[Trailer for Newscast]

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You know when you’re worried about something, but then you talk to your friend who knows more about the subject than you do, and straightaway you start to feel better? That’s what we try and do every day on Newscast.

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, they’re saying that that would be simple to do, it would give everyone certainty.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We talk to people who are in the news:

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You were chasing me round with a plate of cheese.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We talk to people who know what’s going on in the news:

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý At least I didn’t get up and slap anybody.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We talk to people who understand what the news means:

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think that he’s decided he’s going to listen, and then he might just intervene.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And we talk to the best Â鶹ԼÅÄ journalists, asking the most important questions:

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s wrong with chinos? You don’t want them, people to start wearing chinos?

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Don’t start me, Chris.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s Newscast from Â鶹ԼÅÄ News, the podcast that knows a lot of people who know a lot about the news.

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I was like, go on Kate, put some more welly into it!

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Listen to Newscast every weekday on Â鶹ԼÅÄ Sounds.

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m glad I asked that.

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m very glad that you asked that!