麻豆约拍

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23rd July 2024

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 114

Presented by Paul Carter

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PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, I鈥檓 Paul Carter and this is Access All. For those that don鈥檛 know me, I鈥檓 a technology journalist here at the 麻豆约拍. You can frequently see me on the programme Click.

SIRI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hey Paul, it鈥檚 Siri, your favourite AI assistant. I鈥檝e got a few questions for you.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Okay. Hey Siri, what have you got for me?

SIRI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Why have you switched to Access All?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 a very good question. So, Emma, who usually hosts this programme, is taking a very well-earned break, so for the next two weeks unfortunately Siri you鈥檙e going to have to listen to me instead.

SIRI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Happy holidays, Emma. Next question is: what is your favourite bit of accessible technology?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Excellent question. So, I was born without any arms and legs, so selfishly I have an interest in prosthetics. And I鈥檇 say my favourite thing that I鈥檝e seen recently, I was lucky enough to go to San Francisco and test out a mind-controlled bionic arm. You operate the controls for it, but instead of actually wearing the arm you鈥檙e operating it on a screen. So, you can do all of the hand movements, the wrist movements, the elbow movements, everything like that; things which are obviously completely alien movements to me. To be able to do that on a real arm was quite mind-bending.

SIRI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Final question: what鈥檚 on this episode?

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, I鈥檓 very glad you asked. We鈥檝e got some great stuff for you this week. We have a fascinating conversation about ADHD medication, and an interview with the bestselling thriller writer, Jack Jordan.

SIRI-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Let鈥檚 get on with the show.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Indeed, let鈥檚 do it.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听 Theme music.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, I鈥檓 Paul Carter and this is Access All, the 麻豆约拍 podcast all about disability and mental health. If this is your first time listening to us hit subscribe, tell your pals all about us and get in touch. We鈥檙e @麻豆约拍AccessAll on socials, our email address is accessall@bbc.co.uk, and you can also send us some voice notes on WhatsApp, we鈥檙e 0330 123 9480. Also stay tuned until the end of the show when we鈥檝e got some exciting news to reveal. Ooh. Anyway that鈥檚 enough of me jabbering on; let鈥檚 get going.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Getting the right drugs to manage ADHD can be difficult, especially when there is a global shortage of medication. Some Access All listeners have told us they鈥檝e been so desperate when their prescriptions cannot be fulfilled they鈥檝e turned to unregulated products advertised online. In the last few weeks the UK鈥檚 Advertising Standards Authority has banned a number of adverts claiming to cure ADHD and autism, which have left people hundreds of pounds out of pocket. Joining me now is Nicky Baker from the Advertising Standards Authority, and Professor Marios Adamou, consultant psychiatrist based in Southwest Yorkshire. Hello to you both.

NICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 Hello.

MARIOS-听听听听听听听 Hello.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檒l come to you both shortly. I鈥檝e also got Amy Barber on the line. Hello Amy.

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, you bought an unlicensed product online for your ADHD. Can you tell me what it was that led you to do that?

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Before I was diagnosed with ADHD I always felt like there was something wrong with me. And then when I was diagnosed and medicated it completely changed my life and I finally felt like I wasn鈥檛 just someone who was defective. And then when I then couldn鈥檛 access medication, and I鈥檇 been stable on it for six months, it was the best six months of my life, it suddenly just was gone and I had no way to access it. I鈥檇 been given different replacement drugs but none of them worked the same. I needed something and I was completely desperate.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Was this the point that you then went online to try and source an alternative?

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 After the methylphenidate hadn鈥檛 worked I went on and tried to source an alternative, and I used that alternative for about a month and a half. And then I ended up contacting my prescriber again because it didn鈥檛 work. I was just so frustrated. And I felt a bit embarrassed as well because it wouldn鈥檛 be the first time, and it probably won鈥檛 be the last, where I鈥檝e invested in something because I鈥檝e just been desperate to try and be normal and be like a successful person, and I really was not in a good place.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think people can relate to that. But how did you go about choosing the alternative that you went for? What kind of research did you do?

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, I looked at reviews and things from other people who have tried it who also have ADHD and claimed that it had been like a wonder drug for them. I looked at what was actually in it, which essentially was just like multivitamins and a couple of other things that are supposed to be good supplements for ADHD. So, I was like, I might as well just give it a shot.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 How much did you pay for it?

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I paid 拢60.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 not a small sum of money, is it?

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, definitely not.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And did it work? I guess that鈥檚 the big question.

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, no difference whatsoever.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And how did you feel after you鈥檇 spent 拢60 on this supplement that ultimately didn鈥檛 do anything for you?

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I felt disheartened, and at the time I felt a lot worse because I then didn鈥檛 have my medication to stop me from having a big emotional reaction to this. And it felt like another instance in which ADHD had ruined my life and that I鈥檇 tried to fix it yet again and it just hadn鈥檛 worked and I was back at square one, and I was down money. I felt like I was always trying to find a solution and nothing ever really worked until I鈥檇 been on medication.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Nicky, you鈥檙e from the ASA which has banned these products being advertised. Does Amy鈥檚 story sound familiar to you?

NICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 It really does, and this is why it鈥檚 part of the ASA鈥檚 stated commitment to protect vulnerable audiences and people like Amy. And so indeed over the past few weeks we鈥檝e banned a number of online ads, including Facebook ads, for food supplements. And most recently we鈥檝e banned ads for a supplement which made claims to be able to treat or even 鈥渃ure鈥� development language disorder, autism and ADHD. And this particular food supplement was made by a company called Spectrum Awakening, and their advertising depicted a very young boy who apparently had very limited speech, but within a week of taking the Spectrum Awakening food supplement he was suddenly speaking in full sentences. And so we considered that the depiction of a child with developmental language disorder, or DLD, and the crediting of that supplement with the sudden improvement in speech of that child was likely to be interpreted by the average consumer as a claim to treat or cure that condition. We are very much aware that autism and ADHD are not diseases or conditions which can be cured, or developmental disorders. But to see some advertisers claiming to treat or cure those disorders is a really serious concern for us.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Have you any idea of the scale of this problem? You can鈥檛 monitor every advert that鈥檚 generated online. How does the ASA go about keeping across all of this stuff?

NICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 These recent rulings form part of a much wider piece of proactive project work that we鈥檝e been undertaking at the ASA in which we鈥檙e harnessing the power of artificial intelligence and employing cutting-edge technology, we call it our active ad monitoring system, to detect ads at huge scale. And we鈥檙e talking millions of ads per month. And then a subset of those ads are then flagged as being relevant for review by human specialists. So, it鈥檚 not all totally automated, there鈥檚 always human oversight, but it does make our work much more efficient and effective. And in terms of the problem and the scale of the problem of these types of ads our proactive monitoring work showed that there was enough of a problem to warrant some regulatory intervention from the ASA.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thanks Nicky. I will come back to you in just a second. But as you mentioned, Spectrum Awakening is one of the companies which had their advertising banned by the ASA. It is a different company to the one Amy used. Spectrum Awakening advertised a product on Facebook called Power & Focus, which claimed it was a, quote, natural, nutritional supplement for autism and ADHD. We reached out to Spectrum Awakening and received a statement from Dr Jared Skowron who runs the company. He told us his product shouldn鈥檛 have been advertised as helping ADHD, but he does claim it cures autism. Now, Dr Skowron told us:

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 鈥楾he actions of the ASA, while having the right intentions to protect UK citizens from misleading information, has not been sufficient enough to thoroughly investigate autism science.鈥�

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, Nicky, you heard the statement there, how would the ASA respond to accusations of it not leaning into the science when making its decisions?

NICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 It sounds to me like a rather cynical copout on the part of Spectrum Awakening. And we鈥檝e also in the past in the course of our work spoken to the National Autistic Society who鈥檝e told us that often people feel that being autistic is a fundamental aspect of their identity. And actually anyone claiming to 鈥渃ure鈥� something that is arguably incurable and something that鈥檚 part of the fibre and fabric of an individual鈥檚 personality really needs to stop.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thanks ever so much, Nicky. Nicky Baker there from the Advertising Standards Authority. We also received this voice note from listener, Emma, who has chosen natural remedies rather than conventional medicines to treat her ADHD:

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, I鈥檝e decided to kind of use myself as a bit of a guinea pig, human guinea pig to try out alternative ways to manage ADHD. So far I鈥檝e found the Lion鈥檚 Mane has been really helping me. I鈥檝e done lots of research online, just by reading, like, a lot about different ways to manage it, and have found that Lion鈥檚 Mane comes up quite highly.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Lion鈥檚 Mane is a form of mushroom. Listening across all of this is clinical psychiatrist Professor Marios Adamou. Professor, thank you for waiting. How are you feeling after hearing the lengths people are going to to manage their condition?

MARIOS-听听听听听听听 There is licensed treatments; Amy has benefited from them. And she deserves to maintain that benefit. If this medication is not available people will try anything out of, well, desperation I would say. And this is not only common in ADHD, it鈥檚 found in many other conditions. And there are all sorts of remedies and promises.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 ADHD UK has told us that the shortage of medication, as you were alluding to there, is driving people to seek out alternative treatments. I mean, is that something that you鈥檙e seeing with your patients that鈥檚 happening a lot due to the supply issue?

MARIOS-听听听听听听听 I would expect that if people find something that they believe helps then they鈥檒l try. I think the perspective of the advertising agency is to protect consumers. I would on this occasion comment that their guidance which is also protecting patients as well as consumers.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And we heard from Emma just now who mentioned Lion鈥檚 Mane, which is a herbal remedy. There鈥檚 a lot of chat online about it. Is there actually any basis for it being able to help with ADHD?

MARIOS-听听听听听听听 People have this idea that because they鈥檙e herbal remedies then they are safe. But we don鈥檛 know that because we haven鈥檛 studied it. So, I couldn鈥檛 come out and say that there is no herbal remedy in the whole world that wouldn鈥檛 be helpful in ADHD, but I can say that there haven鈥檛 been many, or any as far as I remember, herbal remedies who went through the robust scientific methodology in assessing if they would work. So, as a professional I cannot recommend any of them. But if people want to have a try with their hard-earned money and feel it works then that鈥檚 up to them.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But obviously people are desperate and they鈥檙e turning to these medications because of the shortage that we鈥檙e seeing. What advice would you give to someone who鈥檚 struggling to find the drugs they鈥檝e been prescribed to manage their ADHD?

MARIOS-听听听听听听听 The main point is conversations with their prescriber. We have a guidance around several options and substitutions that are appropriate for people. And in fairness for most of the people that we see they are successful. Also for some we say maybe they can have some medication breaks so they can save up the right dose and use it when they need it. Also we advise on occasions lowering the dose.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Amy, I just want to come back to you. I mean, you鈥檝e heard all of that advice, does any of that ring true to you? Is that reflected in your experiences?

AMY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think some of it is, maybe not all, because if you鈥檙e still in that stage where you鈥檝e had, like, a taste of something good but you鈥檙e not yet in a healthy routine and you don鈥檛 yet have accommodations in your life that can support you to have ADHD in an unmedicated way then that would be really difficult to just come off it for a month.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 We also reached out to the Department of Health about this story and they told us the following:

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 鈥榃e are aware of global supply issues affecting ADHD medications, and are acting to help mitigate risks to patients while these issues are addressed. We have provided comprehensive guidance to healthcare professionals about how to manage and advise patients while there is disruption to supply, and advise any patient with concerns to speak to their clinician.鈥�

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檝e heard lots there about alternatives to helping ADHD. There鈥檚 further information and support on the 麻豆约拍鈥檚 Action Line. And it鈥檚 always advised to speak to your GP when making decisions around your ADHD. Thanks to everyone who spoke to us about this. Thanks again to Amy, to Nicky and to Marios. Please get in touch if this story relates to something you鈥檙e going through at the moment. We鈥檙e @麻豆约拍AccessAll on socials, our email address is accessall@bbc.co.uk, and our WhatsApp is 0330 1230 9480.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, don鈥檛 worry, Emma hasn鈥檛 left you completely in the lurch. Before she signed off for her summer break she interviewed the bestselling author Jack Jordan. Enjoy:

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 My next guest is a number one bestselling author of some seriously intense thrillers. He wrote his first book at age 17 while living with agoraphobia, and then managed to self-publish two bestselling e-books by the time he was 24. Then he went on to find a publisher and sell hundreds of thousands of books. His book in 2023, Conviction, made it into my blindy talking book library, which is surely a measure of success. And the new book, Redemption, is out now. And he鈥檚 here to tell me all about it. It is of course Jack Jordan.

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh thank you so much for having me. I鈥檝e been really looking forward to this.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, go on then, go on, tell me about the new book.

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, Redemption, I鈥檓 known for my moral dilemmas, and with this one I wanted it to pack an emotional punch. Redemption is the story of married couple Evelyn and Tobias who go on a road trip to avenge the death of their son who was killed in a hit and run 11 years before, as the man who caused it had just been released from prison. However, it鈥檚 Evelyn who is hellbent on revenge, and her husband is desperate to stop her, to save her from herself, even if it means protecting the man who killed their son.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, so many layers. Is this very typical of the sort of book you write?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. So, I think with my books, in particular the last three 鈥� I鈥檓 currently writing my ninth at the moment and Redemption is my eighth 鈥� I realised that I really wanted to create a story that shows the struggles and the moral dilemmas that we have in everyday life and how the readers can relate to that. But then I inject it with steroids and make it 20 times worse [laughs].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And really nightmary and scary. I don鈥檛 know if I鈥檝e been able to sleep the last couple of days.

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, well I hope you get a really good sleep soon.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs]

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I apologise if that was my fault. But I think I鈥檝e always used my writing as a vehicle to express my emotions. People meet me and they go, 鈥榃here do all these dark ideas come from?鈥� and I think I鈥檝e had a bit of a challenging life and I went through some dark things, and I started writing to try and exude some of that and understand that. So, I think I always lean to the darker side of stories and the struggles we go through because I can relate to that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檝e mentioned your life a little bit there; when in that life did you start writing books and how did that get going?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I mean, to start off with I think always the question I get was, 鈥榊ou must have had an amazing education. You must have gone to university鈥�. That wasn鈥檛 the case for me; I actually had quite a poor education.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 What do you mean by that?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I had a particularly bad time in school for being gay. And it was a bit relentless to be honest, so I decided at 14 to remove myself from the system. But doing that I then had to go to a different school, it was essentially for kids who couldn鈥檛 be in mainstream school. So, downstairs were the naughty kids who were excluded, and then upstairs were the kids who had to be there for their wellbeing. And I was up there. So, I would be picked up by a teacher in their car in the morning, driven to this place, escorted upstairs and put behind a locked door. And I would have two hours of lessons a day.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Why were you put behind a locked door?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 For protection. The class I was in because we were particularly vulnerable. Also putting two different groups of kids who were there for different reasons might not have gelled well. So, it was quite a volatile place to be, so that really did affect my education. So, I refused to go there as well. So, the only lessons I could have for my last year of school was an hour a day when my mum could come home from work and be there when the teacher was there for her lunch hour to complete my GCSEs, which meant I could only do four. And I insisted six weeks before the exam that they let me do English literature, and I got an A.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Wow, well done!

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you. I think I鈥檝e always been a champion for what I deserve, and that resilience there was there from a very young age, and that鈥檚 definitely served me in my career going forward.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. Now, I did say in the introduction that you wrote your first book at 17 while living with agoraphobia. After your GCSEs how did that become part of your life?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I would say the first 20 years of my life were a bit of a battlefield in terms of traumas. It was a situation that I couldn鈥檛 escape, so when it came to being out of the education system and trying to find who I was and find my new life I was a bit rebellious and ran away. And so I was away for about six months, and unfortunately didn鈥檛 have the life skills to protect myself properly and things like that, and went through significant trauma. So, when I returned home I was just a shell of who I was.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Where did you go? What did you do for the six months?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I won鈥檛 go into detail, but for so long I鈥檇 been stuck and caged. And I think I saw that as a sense of freedom but probably what I shouldn鈥檛 have been doing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Okay. So, you came home?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, I came home, back to safety, back to my loving single mum and my Nan who raised me. But unfortunately came home and I had a lot to process, a lot of anxiety, a lot of panic attacks. And I soon realised that the anxiety was so bad that I no longer felt safe to leave my home, and I was agoraphobic for a year.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And what did that feel like?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 a bit like a prison. This time it was the limitations that my brain was given me, in a form of protection really: anxiety is there to protect us. But the things I鈥檇 gone through meant that I was hypervigilant. That meant that all my fears were extremely heightened. It鈥檚 really lonely, or not many people can relate to it. And you also can鈥檛 sleep because you鈥檙e not exerting energy, so I was an insomniac. I knew I had agoraphobia and how bad it was when I was walking down my staircase and at the same time the postman put a letter through the letterbox and I had a massive panic attack.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 What happened so that you could start moving, like, even to open the letterbox?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 What saved me was my writing. I had this idea rattling around in my head, I thought right, I鈥檓 going to get this out. I had a BlackBerry, if you remember those?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh my goodness!

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah [laughs]. And it was about 5 in the morning because I couldn鈥檛 sleep, and this idea would just not leave me alone, so I typed a little short story on my BlackBerry and finally went to sleep. And then the next day I thought, I鈥檒l write a little bit more, and then the day after that, I鈥檒l write a little bit more. And then six months later I had tricked myself into writing 100,000 word novel. And when I wrote the end I realised that this was what I was always meant to do, and it was going to get me out of this situation.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 A massive relief I imagine.

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Massive, and a great way to connect with the outside world when I couldn鈥檛, so I could live vicariously through my characters. But then once I realised that this was a path I wanted to take I thought well, I鈥檓 going to have to get out and experience more of the world to be able to write about it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. It鈥檚 fascinating to me though that you're writing in your house and you can鈥檛 leave your house, but the types of books that you write invite nightmares into your head and into your home, when that鈥檚 the only place you can be.

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I really do think with, or at least myself writing in the crime and thriller genre, when you鈥檙e victims of crimes yourself you want to understand what has happened to you, why it happened to you, how you鈥檙e going to get through that. And so I think I wanted to write from the point of view of the person who鈥檚 in that to see how they get out. And I think that was a cathartic process for me. So, that鈥檚 become a lot of my inspiration, so I look inwards and I look at my own limitations or my own pain or my own fears.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 How have you been since? What do you do to kind of stay writing, stay going out?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It really was desensitising myself to the fears. So, it would be going to the door or going out into my garden. Then it would be going to pick something up from the step, even if it was just like a flyer or something, I鈥檇 go and pick that up. And then I鈥檇 walk out and just feel the sun on my skin. So, it was self-exposure really. And tremendous amounts of therapy [laughs]. I鈥檝e got a phenomenal therapist who I still see to this day. And I think to be honest I used my career, which I鈥檝e realised now at the age of 31, so 15 years later from when I was agoraphobic that I have been in fight or flight survival mode ever since and only really admitted to myself now. I鈥檝e known I had it, I鈥檝e been diagnosed with it, but I did not accept it until now that I鈥檝e had PTSD for a very long time. I鈥檝e done every coping mechanism you can imagine, the good, the bad and the ugly. I think honestly writing this book, Redemption, has saved my life.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Wow.

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, Redemption on the face of it is a crime thriller, so if you鈥檙e going on a beach holiday you鈥檙e going to enjoy the tension of it, the cat and mouse chase. It鈥檚 got all the aspects of a commercial thriller you鈥檒l want. But I used it as the creator to explore my own grief, explore my own trauma, explore my own emotions with that. And I knew I was sharing a lot when I wrote it; I didn鈥檛 realise quite how much until I listened back to the audio book, and it was only then that I heard them talking back to me my trauma.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Gosh.

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 getting shivers thinking about it. It was the most revelatory moment of my life, and I realised it helped me accept my past, it helped me accept my PTSD and it helped me to stop judging myself and stop harming myself through all of these, quote unquote, coping mechanisms. Since exploring my past through writing it鈥檚 freed me. And I think the most rewarding thing from this is the reception the book has got, because I think when you write something so personal you want to be accepted, you want people not to judge you for that. And it鈥檚 under the guise of fiction, so people don鈥檛 know that they鈥檙e effectively judging you. It鈥檚 been phenomenal, and it鈥檚 helped me have a sense of self-acceptance that I never thought I鈥檇 get.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Brilliant. And you talked about barriers and you鈥檝e written about a blind character, you鈥檝e written about a gay character, what would your advice be for writers in a nutshell, Jack, particularly writers who have some extra barriers to get through?

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Know what you deserve. You can often find when you鈥檙e from a marginalised community you have to work very hard to get in the same room. I think we have such a wealth of knowledge that we can share. We see the world differently, we experience the world differently, and I think that really lends itself to storytelling, but also allows readers to identify with a character. I think everyone deserves to feel the representations of themselves in a book.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Jack, I鈥檓 being told we鈥檝e absolutely run out of time. I genuinely could have talked to you for an awful lot longer. And I鈥檓 hoping that you will come back and speak to me again.

JACK-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I would love to.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Jack Jordan, thank you for joining me. And Redemption is out now.

PAUL-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank very much Emma for that interview with Jack. Now, it鈥檚 almost the end of the show 鈥� I know, time flies 鈥� but as promised there鈥檚 one more exciting thing to tell you. Drumroll please. Do we have drumrolls? I鈥檓 being told we do have drumrolls. [Drumroll] Access All is hosting a live show at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe, and you, yes you, can be part of the audience. Emma will be hosting guests including award-winning comedians Dan Tiernan and Matt Ford, for all sorts of fun, stories, and a bit where you get to ask the questions. The show will be at Dynamic Earth on Friday 9th August at 3pm. And if you go to the 麻豆约拍鈥檚 Shows and Tours page you can get yourself some free tickets to come along and watch. Sounds good. Okay, that鈥檚 it. Thanks to all my guests today. I鈥檝e had an absolute blast. It鈥檚 gone way too quickly. I鈥檒l be back next week so I look forward to speaking to you all again then. Thanks very much. Bye.

[Trailer for Reliable Sauce]

KIRSTY-听听听听听听听听 Do you want to know what鈥檚 going on in the world but you can鈥檛 really be bothered to read the news?

JONELLE-听听听听听听 Want to understand what鈥檚 gone viral and what鈥檚 trending?

BOTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hey, hey, hey!

KIRSTY-听听听听听听听听 Join me, Kirsty Grant.

JONELLE-听听听听听听 And me, Jonelle Awomoyi on our weekly podcast, Reliable Sauce.

KIRSTY-听听听听听听听听 We鈥檙e both journalists at 麻豆约拍 News.

JONELLE-听听听听听听 And each week we鈥檒l be breaking down the stories everyone鈥檚 obsessed with. What the hell is going on with this Stanley Cup craze?

KIRSTY-听听听听听听听听 How often do you think about the Roman Empire?

MALE-听听听听听听听听听听听听 There are weeks that it will come up in my brain more than once.

JONELLE-听听听听听听 Expect interviews with the hottest influencers and content creators.

KIRSTY-听听听听听听听听 Jordan Theresa, welcome along. Matt, joins us now. Welcome to the Reliable Sauce studio!

MATT-听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you for having me.

KIRSTY-听听听听听听听听 Let鈥檚 talk more about this with Catie Baser who鈥檚 in the studio with us.

CATIE-听听听听听听听听听听听 Hi.

KIRSTY-听听听听听听听听 And hand-picked experts to help us make sense of it all when we need them.

FEMALE-听听听听听听听 So, the law is there, but we really need these social media companies to act.

FEMALE-听听听听听听听 Terms like this seem quite flippant, but of course they can be really serious.

KIRSTY-听听听听听听听听 And we will听 have a little giggle too [laughter].

JONELLE-听听听听听听 So, please come and join our spicy band.

KIRSTY-听听听听听听听听 Listen on 麻豆约拍 Sounds now.

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