麻豆约拍

10th July 2024

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 112

Presented by Emma Tracey

EMMA- Hello, it is the week after the General Election and we are not going to be talking about politics this week, except to say that we are keenly awaiting the appointment of the new minister for disabled people, health and work. And as soon as we know who it is, we鈥檒l tell you. On with the show.

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EMMA- Hello, and welcome to Access All. I鈥檓 Emma Tracey, and we are the 麻豆约拍鈥檚 weekly show about disability and mental health. If you鈥檙e hearing us for the first time on 5 Live because we鈥檙e often on in the middle of the night, you are so welcome, and thank you for joining us. Please do subscribe to us on 麻豆约拍 Sounds, and tell your friends about us, tell your family, tell everybody you know. And also, let us know what you think, you can email us accessall@bbc.co.uk and we are on social media, we鈥檙e on Instagram and X @bbcaccessall. And I know I always talk about getting in touch, but honestly when you do it really does make our day.

Now this time, we鈥檙e going to be talking about ableist slurs in sport, and particularly football, and we鈥檒l also be speaking to online influencer with Tourette鈥檚 syndrome, Rachel Chaleff, and you might know her as Keet online. Really looking forward to that chat.

It is a summer of sport to be sure, with Wimbledon, Euro 鈥�24, and the Olympics and Paralympics to come. But one charity says that this sporting action has brought with it an increase in disability hate speech from sports fans. Level Playing Field, a charity that supports disabled sport enthusiasts, says that the problem spiked during the Euros. Tony Taylor from Level Playing Field, is with me, and so is sports fantastic, Willoughby. Hi Willoughby.

WILLOUGHBY- Hiya.

EMMA- I鈥檓 going to come back to you in a second because you鈥檝e got a lot to say about all of this, I think. But I鈥檓 going to start with you, Tony. What research has Level Playing Field been doing around this?

TONY- We carry out an annual survey of fans, and obviously we monitor what鈥檚 going on in terms of disability abuse. One of the things we鈥檝e noticed in particular over the Euros, has been the range of language that has been used over the social media platforms. A prevalent example was, more than 100 specific uses of Gareth Southgate being referred to using an unacceptable 鈥楻鈥� word that we鈥檝e seen across the X platform alone, and that was just during the qualifying period. And unfortunately that鈥檚 continuing as we get through the knockout stages. So it鈥檚 something we keep our eye on very, very closely and it鈥檚 something that I鈥檝e got to say, causes me great concern, because as we see it develop in social media, the more we see it transferring onto the terraces and becoming acceptable use in day-to-day life, which is very concerning I think.

EMMA- Well that鈥檚 what I was going to ask you next, Tony. What impact is this online use of these ableist slurs like the 鈥楻鈥� word as you say, which is so offensive that we don鈥檛 actually say the word on this podcast. What impact does that have on disabled people generally, disabled fans, disabled players?

TONY- One of the questions that we always ask in our annual survey is, what would prevent you from actually going to watch live sport? Because we know that live sport brings with it so many benefits for people with disabilities, whether it鈥檚 improvements in mental health, or even in terms of just physical exercise that we might not normally experience. So we ask this very specific question, what prevents you from going to watch live sporting events? We鈥檝e seen an increase in the last two or three years, quite significant increases in our survey, of people saying the one reason that they鈥檒l not go is because they don鈥檛 want to be subject to disablist abuse. We鈥檝e seen it rise from 5.5% to 6.5% to 7% in 2023, and our current survey is underway right now and I鈥檓 pretty sure that I can predict quite safely that we鈥檒l see an even bigger increase in that.

EMMA- That鈥檚 interesting you talk about it transferring onto the terraces. What kind of feedback have you had? You鈥檙e a sports fan clearly, a disabled person.

TONY- Yeah.

EMMA- What have you seen, and what have your colleagues seen, and what have people told you that they鈥檙e experiencing on the terraces, what鈥檚 the evidence?

TONY- I mean I鈥檝e experienced it myself. I鈥檓 a disabled person, I鈥檓 semi-ambulant, I鈥檝e had all sorts of insults passed in my direction,

EMMA- Like what, Tony?

TONY- We talked about that 鈥楻鈥� word, that seems to be thrown around to anybody with a disability.

EMMA- We can hear now from Jack, who鈥檚 disabled and non-verbal, and his mum Kayleigh, and Kayleigh鈥檚 words are telling their story.

KAYLEIGH: Jack is a 12-year-old little boy who absolutely loves his football.聽 Jack is also a full-time wheelchair user and attends all the matches in his wheelchair. On the whole, all the fans have been really welcoming and really supportive, but the small minority of fans, unfortunately, have spoiled it on occasions. We have had verbal disability slurs shouted at us by opposition fans, and as much as it really sickens me to say this, Jack was once called a [BLEEPED OUT] by an opposition fan, which was completely unacceptable. Unfortunately, it was a group who came and stood at the side of Jack, which completely blocked his view. And we鈥檇 asked if they could stand back ever so slightly. Sadly this was met with threats of violence and 鈥淚 don鈥檛 give a [BLEEPED OUT] if THAT can鈥檛 see.鈥� 鈥淚t鈥檚 not my fault if that thing is in a wheelchair.鈥� That thing that鈥檚 in a wheelchair is a 12-year-old little boy who wants to go and watch his favourite football team play football.聽 It鈥檚 really not too much to ask.聽

EMMA- Gosh, that鈥檚 actually quite hard to listen to, and again slurs that we would hope that we wouldn鈥檛 hear anymore really. Willoughby, you鈥檝e been listening, Tony, you鈥檝e been listening about Jack and Kayleigh, have you experienced anything like that when you鈥檝e gone to sporting events as a disabled person?

WILLOUGHBY- I鈥檝e seen it a lot with stadiums in England. The disability section in the away end isn鈥檛 really separated too much, so I鈥檝e seen it quite a lot with goal celebrations, people rushing down the stairs at a million miles an hour when their team has just scored, and not really having any idea or any awareness of the people at the bottom of the stairs, which is usually people with a disability. Whether they鈥檝e got a carer or whether they鈥檙e in a wheelchair, it can get quite dangerous at times and emotions can be high.

EMMA- And have you ever been hurt, or have you ever regretted going to a game?

WILLOUGHBY- I鈥檝e never been hurt as such, but in the smaller, more confined places you can kind of get squashed at times with goal celebrations and things like that. I do believe that a lot of the language, like Tony was saying, used at football matches wouldn鈥檛 be acceptable anywhere else in society. But this kind of stigma that because it鈥檚 in a 90 minute match and you鈥檙e in an enclosed environment, you can act how you want to, which I don鈥檛 think is right at all.

EMMA- So it鈥檚 like a bubble?

WILLOUGHBY- Yeah. I think it鈥檚 a bubble, then people go home.

EMMA- You鈥檝e heard abuse, have you Willoughby?

WILLOUGHBY- I think football fans especially are really quick to turn on their team and then they use the types of language, like implying that players are suddenly disabled because they鈥檙e losing one-nil or something, and I feel like that鈥檚 quite hard to hear when I鈥檓 trying to support the team.

EMMA- That鈥檚 such a good point. I just want to say congratulations to you and your team, Norwich, for winning the FA Disability CP Cup, well done. So you鈥檙e a big fan, you鈥檙e a player. I mean that must have been online, there was a story on the 麻豆约拍 even about it, I think. Have you had any online abuse, or have you seen a lot of online abuse, when you鈥檝e been sort of following your teams on X and other platforms?

WILLOUGHBY- It was broadcast live on TV the other Sunday, so they had posted clips and stuff on social media afterwards. Luckily we did win this year, because last year we didn鈥檛 win and we came back and we won it this year, so that was even better, did the League and the Cup double. On the YouTube highlights, especially in the comments section, there were some really horrible comments directed to the Chelsea goalkeeper because unfortunately he scored two own goals, and there was a lot of hate directed towards him.

EMMA- This is another player with CP, right?

WILLOUGHBY- Yeah, he鈥檚 another player with CP, but it was even hurtful to see. Yes, we won the final and it was an amazing experience, but it鈥檚 just horrible to see someone getting abuse even from another team in like a game that you played.聽

And I just wanted to add, I know there鈥檚 a video that the Norwich City CSF posted, which is what our team is under, it鈥檚 the charity branch of Norwich City Football Club and they do some great things in the community. The Down鈥檚 syndrome team played against the education pathway, so like the Norwich College team, and they posted a video on TikTok and it went viral, and they had to turn off the comments eventually because loads of people were making memes about these players who were playing were Down鈥檚 syndrome.

EMMA- Oh my goodness. Tony, you鈥檝e been listening to all that, that鈥檚 all really horrible to hear, isn鈥檛 it? Does it surprise you what Willoughby鈥檚 saying?

TONY- It shocks me, but it doesn鈥檛 surprise me. I鈥檓 getting this sort of messaging from our members on a regular basis, and it really is quite a statement on the society we live in, that in the 21st Century this sort of thing goes on.

EMMA- And is confined to football Tony, or is it in other sports too?聽

TONY- Well, again, you were talking about league tables earlier on, and I鈥檓 not sure we should create an ableist league table for different sports. I think the thing about football is that it鈥檚 the national sport, so it gets the highest level of attention. I think it does go on in other sports, but certainly not to the extent that we see in football, but I think that鈥檚 probably purely and simply just the way it鈥檚 reported through the system.聽

WILLOUGHBY- Just to add to that. Before I did disability-specific football, I used to play mainstream rugby, which I managed to do for quite a few years before obviously my CP. Everyone else had their growth spurt, and I couldn鈥檛 physically deal with tackling people my age anymore with obviously one side of me being weaker. There was quite a few occasions I鈥檇 go to games and stuff and actually playing from opposition players I would get players mimicking my hand movements from the opposition. And all the dirty kind of secrets, like you get defenders and professional footballers squeezing people鈥檚 hips or whatever to like get an edge, but it鈥檚 more like them trying to wind you up but about something very personal. So I鈥檝e had my hand movements mocked quite a few times when actually playing sport.

EMMA- Gosh. And you still love sports. See, this is the thing, are these things are happening, and I have some colleagues in the office who will tell me all about their experiences playing mainstream football as disabled people and the abuse. People love sport so much that you stick at it and you still love it.

WILLOUGHBY- I still love sport. I think it encourages me to do more and just show that disabled people can do whatever they set their mind to. I鈥檝e had lots of comments on social media before about people with certain disabilities or my disability, they can鈥檛 actually have kids, and just people being so uneducated. It just inspires me to carry on. Because there鈥檚 so many problems in society to do with people being uneducated, it kind of spurs me on to inspire other disabled people to just do whatever they want to do and set their mind to it really.

EMMA- Thank you so much, Tony Taylor from Level Playing Field.

TONY- My pleasure.

EMMA- And thank you also to Willoughby, a superstar disabled sports supporter. Thanks, Willoughby.

WILLOUGHBY- No worries.

MUSIC- Jingle

EMMA- With almost three million followers on TikTok and being recognised when she鈥檚 out and about, my next guest is a pretty big deal. Rachel Chaleff is known as Keet online sometimes. She鈥檚 only 18 and she鈥檚 already making big waves with her posts about living life with Tourette鈥檚 Syndrome, and here鈥檚 a little taster of those.

RACHEL- Hello, I鈥檓 Rachel Chaleff, I have Tourette鈥檚 syndrome. You already know that, okay, [tics]. This person asked, are there any benefits or like a bright side to having [tics] tics? This is an interesting question, [clicks fingers] you stupid [BLEEPED OUT]. I鈥檓 going to say 鈥渘o鈥�.

EMMA- Hi, Rachel. You鈥檙e so welcome to Access All, thank you for coming on.

RACHEL- Hello. Thank you so much for having me.

EMMA- What kind of videos do you make? What kind of content do you make?

RACHEL- So I do a few different things. My main focus at the moment is Tourette鈥檚 awareness/education, disability awareness/education, I mainly do that. Sometimes some of my content is comedic. I do understand that I can have my funny moments [tics] with my tics, and as long as no-one is laughing at me, I don鈥檛 mind if they laugh with me.

EMMA- So you don鈥檛 mind people laughing if your tics are genuinely funny?

RACHEL- Oh, absolutely not. I get it. Sometimes I think they鈥檙e funny.

EMMA- What was it like being a young teenager and growing up with that going on in your life, and having to go to school and then college?

RACHEL- Early on in my life my tics were very minimal, I only had motor tics that were practically unnoticeable. But around the age of 15 my onset of Tourette鈥檚 occurred, so that is defined by the fact that I was suffering from both motor and vocal tics for over a year. That鈥檚 how you鈥檙e diagnosed with Tourette鈥檚 essentially. Just to put it truly. That was incredibly difficult. I was already bullied in school a lot as a kid before my onset of Tourette鈥檚 Syndrome.

EMMA- So why were you bullied before your Tourette鈥檚? I mean why is anyone bullied, we don鈥檛 necessarily always know, but what do you think fed into your bullying even before the Tourette鈥檚 kicked in?

RACHEL- I was actually mainly bullied for being Jewish, which is ironic considering I live in New York, but the fact that I鈥檓 ethnically Jewish, and the fact that I was a weird kid, I was a quiet kid, and people always made fun of my appearance. Before I was even out as a queer person they assumed I was, and that was funny to them. So I was pretty much attacked over every aspect of my being, which was difficult, that was yeah, it鈥檚 kind of hard to love yourself when it feels like everyone around you despises everything about you.

EMMA- And do you think that stress was part of how the Tourette鈥檚 manifested itself eventually, because sometimes tics can be stress related, can鈥檛 they?

RACHEL- Yeah, absolutely. That definitely played a part in it.

EMMA- Sure. You鈥檙e only 18 now so none of that was that long ago. What would possess someone who鈥檚 had all of that struggle and all of that bullying to open their lives up on social media and to be so sort of visible online, when things have been so hard for you with other people at school etc?

RACHEL- I have always fervently believed that the purpose of my existence is to help others. Ever since I was a child, that鈥檚 always been a passion of mine. I had innocently posted myself on social medial like any other teenager does in my cute outfit or whatever. Someone asked me to show my hair. In that next video where I showed my hair I was ticking, and that video blew up not just because people loved my hair, but because I was ticking, and people were confused, they didn鈥檛 know how to feel, some of them didn鈥檛 like it, and I realised instead of taking all of that to heart, I was like, 鈥楾his is a phenomenal opportunity to help people, to bring awareness to my struggles that other people also have.鈥� Because to be very honest, I don鈥檛 see a lot of representation of people like me in the media. I feel like most of it is very comedic, and that鈥檚 okay at times, but when our representation is entirely revolved around comedy, that influences people to treat us like a laughing stock, and that is what I have experienced.

EMMA- But you do deal with the abusive message because you do get plenty of those, but you attack them head-on really, don鈥檛 you?

RACHEL- I attack them with kindness and love. [Laughs] That is my preferred approach. I love to just assume that I never know what is going on in someone else鈥檚 life, or had gone on, in order to make them so hateful or ignorant. I like to assume the best of people, which can be to a fault at times. But to use every single opportunity that I have. Even if I receive the most vile hate comment, if I know that I can turn this into an educational opportunity [tics] that can help others positively influence others, I take it.

EMMA- And actually here鈥檚 a clip of one of your videos where you do exactly that.

RACHEL- Hello Rachel or Keet [tics]. And I have Tourette鈥檚 syndrome, and this person said, 鈥淚鈥檒l need a cloth to gag and then we are ready.鈥� So [beep] [tics] to literally restrain someone [tics] while they are tic鈥檌ng can actually make their tics [tics] far worse. So [tics] if someone you know is having a tic attack or is just [tics] having a lot of tics in the moment, do not attempt to hold them down and shut them up [tics] because it will cause harm to that person and their tics will only become worse.

EMMA- What kind of hate comments do you get, Rachel?

RACHEL- I get a lot! Okay, so the most common is that I鈥檓 faking it.

EMMA- And how do you deal with that? Because I have met other people with Tourette鈥檚 who have been accused of faking it as well, because obviously people think that they can just fake tics.

RACHEL- Yeah. Which honestly, that would be a really difficult bit to keep up for years. But the way I see it is that I understand it is a concept that is very difficult to grasp, the fact that I cannot control what I am saying or how I am moving, and the fact that some of the things I say seem purposeful. I mean some of it is, you know, words, like I鈥檓 speaking but I can鈥檛 control it. I understand that Tourette鈥檚 is a very complex disorder for others to understand. I don鈥檛 think anyone deserves hateful remarks of course ever, but I can鈥檛 entirely blame them for being so violently confused to the point where they are nasty. If they bring that energy towards me, I like to try and take that, flip it. I would rather people be mean to me and I be the one that forgives them and tries to actually help them and educate them, than have them harass others.

EMMA- Right.

RACHEL- I don鈥檛 know. I don鈥檛 mean to sound so you know heroic or whatever, and that鈥檚 not how I鈥檓 trying to come off.

EMMA- You just sound nicer than I am really. Basically that鈥檚 what I鈥檓 getting from this interview! Have you found community online with other people with Tourette鈥檚, or you鈥檙e autistic as well so other autistic people? Has that been something that鈥檚 been useful from being a social medial influencer, as you are?

RACHEL- Oh absolutely. It鈥檚 been a beautiful thing. It really has brought so much hope back into my life connecting with these people. And that鈥檚 also why I make this content, I hope to do the same for others, to make them feel connected to someone or not feel as alone.

EMMA- What鈥檚 your most popular video, Rachel?

RACHEL- Okay. I might be wrong, I think it鈥檚 this one video where I had a tic and I said, 鈥淸BLEEPED OUT] on me.鈥�

EMMA- Oh gosh. So people just love that stuff. Is that voyeuristic? Do you worry about that, that people are being a bit weird by watching you tic?

RACHEL- Oh, they absolutely are.

EMMA- And how do you feel about that?

RACHEL- Not a fan. And a lot of people like to put that blame on me I notice, they鈥檙e like, 鈥淥h well, can鈥檛 feel bad about it if you鈥檙e the one who posted it.鈥� But the reality is that I鈥檓 trying to be as authentic as possible, this is actually how I behave on a day-to-day basis, I cannot control these symptoms that I have. And while, like I said earlier, I don鈥檛 mind laughing at it a bit, to sexualise it, to fetishise it, to romanticise it any of that, it鈥檚 just bizarre to me.

EMMA- So you鈥檙e 18. Is this your job now, social media influencer?

RACHEL- Yeah, pretty much.

EMMA- And do you think you鈥檒l do that long-term? What is your future plans?

RACHEL- No idea. I am, however, enjoying it now. I鈥檝e always feared that I would never be able to create a life for myself like how everyone else does. I thought that I would always struggle to get a job. It鈥檚 so, so, so difficult to do pretty much anything. And you can do anything having Tourette鈥檚 or any other disability, you really can, but in my situation I have struggled so much just to find a normal job like anyone else, because people do not understand my disability. That is also why I make this content, because I want to normalise this.

EMMA- Rachel Chaleff, thank you so much for telling me your story, it鈥檚 been absolutely fascinating, thank you.

RACHEL- Thank you.

EMMA- That is it for another episode. Thanks to Tony Taylor from Level Playing Field. Thanks to Willoughby, our awesome sports fan. Thanks for Rachel Chaleff who you just heard. And thanks a million to you for listening as well. If you haven鈥檛 already, please subscribe to us on 麻豆约拍 Sounds, and get in touch, because as I said earlier, it makes our day. Thanks to Maurice Press for your email, Morris wants us to tell more positive disability stories. We鈥檝e absolutely taken that on-board, Maurice. And thanks to M. Doucet in the US who says that they enjoyed our General Election interviews and commentary around those. They say that policies around disability and neurodivergence are a good barometer for a party鈥檚 direction. They also really liked the questions that we asked every party, like the ones about the manifesto, and whether they have it in different formats and whether those formats were released at the same time as the general version. So thanks. Get in touch with us by email, accessall@bbc.co.uk,or on the socials, Instagram and X @bbcaccessall. Thanks for listening, goodbye.

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