麻豆约拍

听

15th January 2024

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 86

Presented by Emma Tracey and Aidy Smith

听

听

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Hello Aidy Smith. How are you?

AIDY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 very well, thank you.听听听

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 What are you doing here?

AIDY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 here to help out with a little bit of sign language. And we are going to be delving into a brand new bunch of words that have come out within the British Sign Language, all to do with LGBTQ+.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh yes, and that鈥檚 later on in the programme. But sticking with language actually, that鈥檚 a useful, helpful way to get into this, neurospicy, we talked about this last time. Because you鈥檙e a bit neurospicy, aren鈥檛 you?

AIDY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I am. I鈥檝e got Tourette鈥檚, I鈥檝e got ADHD, a mixed bag of wonderful things.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Right. So, you promised me, because you're a bit of a drinks expert, you promised me you鈥檙e going to do me a neurospicy margarita. Did you make one? How did it taste? Was it amazing?

AIDY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I did make one. It took several variations: I put a little bit of chilli in there, a little bit of jalapeno, some gorgeous Reposado tequila, a little bit of agave syrup, and of course not forgetting a lime. And it was simply beautiful. Next time I come in I鈥檒l bring you one.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh please do, I need to taste this neurospicy margarita. Right, on with the show.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听 Theme music.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 From this snazzy new studio in London 鈥� I am telling you, it smells like a showroom 鈥� this is Access All, the 麻豆约拍鈥檚 home for disability and mental health. I鈥檓 Emma Tracey, and this week I鈥檓 going to be talking to the Wheel Housewife of Essex 鈥� get it? Wheel: she鈥檚 a wheelchair user. Housewife: she鈥檚 a mum and she鈥檚 married. Getting it? Making it sense? Also I鈥檓 going to be learning the brand new shiny BSL sign for throuple. Throuple. Useful, I would say. You might be listening to us on 5 Live, and if you are and if you like what you hear, please subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts from, and then we will come down onto your device every single week. Lucky you.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 British Sign Language has always had a rich vocabulary, and it鈥檚 always evolving, just like our society and what we talk about in English is. English LGBTQ+ vocabulary has been growing and changing, and it鈥檚 broader nowadays and it鈥檚 being used much more openly than before. But BSL signs haven鈥檛 evolved just as quickly or in the same way. So, some very, very clever people in UCL, University College London, have got together with Deaf Rainbow UK, a deaf LGBTQ+ organisation, to develop 20 new signs all around this area to address the lack of LGBTQ specific vocabulary. Dr Patrick Rosenburg from UCL was part of the project and he鈥檚 here, and he鈥檚 speaking through his interpreter, Karen Newbie. Patrick, you鈥檙e so welcome, thank you for joining us.

PATRICK-听听听听听听 You鈥檙e welcome, thank you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 great to have you here. And also I鈥檝e got Adie Smith with me, friend of the programme, part of the LGBTQ community. Hi Adie, hi again.

AIDY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello. Always lovely to see you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 OH, lovely to see you again. You鈥檙e here to help, because I actually can鈥檛 see, so you鈥檙e going to help me to understand some of these new signs, to describe them to me. And you鈥檝e got some questions for Dr Patrick as well, don鈥檛 you?

AIDY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I do indeed. I will be your homosexual set of eyes today, darling.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Amazing and fabulous, thank you so much. Right, so back to the story of these new signs. In November 2023 video clips of the new signs were added to the Deaf Rainbow UK glossary webpage. Patrick, can you tell us what some of these new signs are?

PATRICK-听听听听听听 Well, at UCL we have DCAL, the deafness, cognition and language research centre, and some of the staff there got together and we saw a funding opportunity that came up which was to improve equality, diversity and inclusion there at UCL. And the aim was to improve relationships between UCL LGBTQ+ staff and the rest of the staff community. And so we decided to work with an organisation called Deaf Rainbow UK, who already had some signs established; but we needed more because, as you鈥檝e already explained, the vocabulary has moved on significantly in the hearing community. And so we developed these signs and well, fingers crossed, we鈥檒l see what happens to those signs now that they鈥檝e been released on the community, we鈥檒l see what the uptake is.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, you鈥檙e hoping that the deaf community will embrace these signs and use them for those terms?

PATRICK-听听听听听听 Yeah. Well, who knows? We鈥檒l see what happens. It鈥檚 the first attempt. The thing about language planning and using new vocabulary is you can鈥檛 force people to adopt this, you know. Language has to evolve organically, so you can have language planning strategies to create new signs, but then there鈥檚 no guarantee that those signs will be taken up positively by the community. So, you just have to let them go, see what happens, and some of them will run and some of them will drop out of use. And then, you know, you can develop more and again go through the same process.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I love the idea of language planning and creating new words. Okay, so there is a long list of 20 signs which Aidy and I are now going to read out the English words.

AIDY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, I was looking at the videos online, Emma, and when I looked at the word gay there was a particularly handsome man in that video, so I think I鈥檒l go with gay as my first one.

PATRICK-听听听听听听 So, you鈥檝e got your flat hand with the other hand with the thumb up on it. Emma, put your left hand flat with the palm up, and then take your right hand and make a thumbs up shape with your right hand.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 even know what a thumbs up is nearly.

PATRICK-听听听听听听 Yeah. Then place the right hand on top of the left palm and wiggle it backwards and forwards.

AIDY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Good job.

PATRICK-听听听听听听 Yeah. It鈥檚 like a cat walking along.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Why is it that?

PATRICK-听听听听听听 I think the other thing is to remember when we talk about sign language is that signs can be arbitrary, there doesn鈥檛 necessarily have to be a reason why they鈥檙e shaped like they are. So, some signs are not iconic, iconic being that they visually represent the thing that they鈥檙e referring to. But some signs are completely arbitrary and they just are what they are. The same with spoken language: why do we use the words we use? They don鈥檛 look like or sound like the thing they depict often. So, it鈥檚 the same.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 such a really important thing to remember, because I am sort of drawn to ask why a sign is what it is; whereas if you look at the word, I don鈥檛 know, dungeon, why is it called a dungeon. Why did I think, why did I say dungeon? I have no idea [laughs]. But do you know what I mean, I would never ask somebody鈥�

PATRICK-听听听听听听 It鈥檚 a bit early for us to talk about dungeons, isn鈥檛 it? [Laughs]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Why is a word a word? I don鈥檛 know. Who knows? Right, let鈥檚 go through a few more of these signs. Throuple.

PATRICK-听听听听听听 Oh yes, throuple. This is the sign for throuple: so if you鈥檙e right-handed with your right hand you hold three fingers out.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Like this?

PATRICK-听听听听听听 Three fingers pointed upwards, so your palm facing yourself. Yeah, keep your pinkie down, that鈥檚 right. So, pinkie and thumb out of the way. Three fingers, and then move, as you move your hand slightly away from you you close your fingers together.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, three?

PATRICK-听听听听听听 Yeah, exactly. Well done.

AIDY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Fantastic.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you. I鈥檓 loving this.

AIDY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, there must have been a lot of challenges with the lack of vocabulary for the LGBTQ community. Can you describe what some of those have been?

PATRICK-听听听听听听 Well, the deaf community is already a marginalised community, and the deaf LGBTQ community is even more marginalised. So, their opportunities to develop and understand their identity are more limited. And that leads to many more instances of mental wellbeing issues within the community. And so creating spaces to consider vocabulary gives people a chance to understand themselves better and to engage more with other people if the language is more suited to them. And so creating new signs, well, you know, these concepts in and of themselves are complex, they鈥檙e not straightforward often, and so we needed to think about them in much greater depth. And so that鈥檚 what we did in order to support the community better.

AIDY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And how long has it taken for this process to happen?

PATRICK-听听听听听听 The whole process of creating signs was around about three months because there was a planning stage, prior to that we had to get people in place, we had to have a survey, we wanted to invite members from the community to come in and we did that on three different occasions, so we got feedback from within the community before we then filmed and edited in time for the launch party.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Launch party, I like that idea.

PATRICK-听听听听听听 Oh yeah, it was really fantastic. And we had a deaf drag act at the party to introduce the new signs to the audience.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Brilliant.

PATRICK-听听听听听听 It was really lovely. You know, you don鈥檛 see deaf drag very much out there in the mainstream, so it was a good opportunity for people to actually see that deaf drag artists exist, so it was really lovely.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. But just to say, these signs are not official-official vocabulary, are they?

PATRICK-听听听听听听 Well, like with any vocabulary in any language it鈥檚 down to the people using it, you know. Then the more it goes into general usage then it would be accepted into some kind of dictionary. So, we had to launch these things into the community. And some people have their own views about the signs, and that鈥檚 perfectly normal. Some people disagree with some of the signs that we introduce and some people love them. It鈥檚 the same with the spoken languages of the world: words pop up into use and sometimes they disappear quite quickly, and sometimes they get completely adopted and they鈥檙e in use for many, many decades.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Was there any particularly divisive sign? What was the sign that got the most arguments going or whatever?

PATRICK-听听听听听听 There were a few where there were some arguments. For example the word queer, there are some signs already in use, but some of them can seem a bit degrading, like the one that is at the waist with a hand moving downwards. But, you know, some people like them and want to keep them, don鈥檛 want to lose them, but some community members wouldn鈥檛 agree with retaining older signs.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, the waist moving downwards, what does that鈥�?

PATRICK-听听听听听听 Yeah, you, sort of, hold your spread hand out and your thumb bounces off your hip, and that鈥檚 the sign of queer.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Is that what they used to say like limp-wristed?

PATRICK-听听听听听听 Exactly, yeah. And it would appear some people would say to have negative connotations, but some people use it, so it鈥檚 fine. If听 you鈥檙e content and comfortable to use it then keep it. It鈥檚 not for us to decide what people should or shouldn鈥檛 do. Some people say they鈥檝e reclaimed the sign in a positive way.

AIDY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 interesting because I think in general terms in language there are some words that are looked upon as derogatory, and it鈥檚 obviously the same in sign language.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And actually disabled people sometimes say they鈥檝e reclaimed words too. Patrick, do you see it that way?

PATRICK-听听听听听听 I agree.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Aidy, you have some additional questions.

AIDY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I always have questions [laughter]. So, my next question: Emma and I always talk about dating lives and our stories and this, that and the other, and I always fill her in on my dating shenanigans. I am interested to know, it鈥檚 first of all quite difficult in the LGBT world to date, and second of all to have a disability it鈥檚 even more difficult to date. So, are there any stories you鈥檝e heard from your, well our LGBTQ+ community, but specifically within the deaf community, of the hardships that they face?

PATRICK-听听听听听听 Options can be limited. It was funny, this morning I was having a think about deaf dating experiences. And so there was a deaf event where many people got together and I met this guy on the first night, and now we鈥檙e married. And what鈥檚 interesting is that the thing that brought us together was being deaf. It was a deaf event, people were there from different parts of the world, and we just happened to meet each other there. So, it can be really overwhelming for single men generally. It can be funny as well, quite comical. But there are a plethora of different experiences. And if you want to meet other gay deaf men then obviously the dating pool is smaller and, you know, expectations may be greater. What鈥檚 your dating life like? [Laughter]

AIDY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 How much time do you have? [Laughter]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Would you go for another neurospicy?

AIDY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes. So, neurospicy is a term, a new term that is being really supported and loved by the neurodiverse community because we just like that word. So, yes I would go for someone else who was neurodiverse or neurospicy. And I鈥檓 thinking perhaps my future husband has Tourette鈥檚 and ADHD as well.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Hmm, maybe.

AIDY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Who knows?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I need to know, Dr Patrick, how your interpreter is signing neurospicy?

PATRICK-听听听听听听 [Laughs] no, well the interpreter is signing a sign that we have neuro that鈥檚 already in use, and the sign for spicy, as in hot food, spicy food. So, you take your right hand with your index and middle finger pointing out, so all the other fingers curled in, and put it up to your forehead and then pull it back from your forehead to the back of your head around the side of your head. Yeah, neuro.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Okay. And spicy?

PATRICK-听听听听听听 And spicy, so your fingers are wiggling, all your five fingers are wiggling in front of your mouth to indicate hot food.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Hot.

PATRICK-听听听听听听 Spicy.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Dr Patrick Rosenburg and Aidy Smith, and interpreter Karen Newbie, thank you so much for joining me. I鈥檝e learnt so much and it鈥檚 been a lot of fun.

AIDY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Love it, absolutely love it. And we all now know how to say neurospicy.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And Aidy thank you so much, as always, for joining me for this item.

AIDY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 My lovely, I will see you very soon with a whole load of neurospicy cocktails.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yum yum.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 There have been some cracking learning disability related stories in the news this week. And who better to talk them through with me than Scott Watkin in 2009 became the learning disability co-tsar, so he worked for the government on learning disability issues. And he is now head of inclusion at SeeAbility, a charity for people with visual impairments and learning disabilities. Hi Scott, how are you?

SCOTT-听听听听听听听听听听 Hi, Emma, I鈥檓 really good. It鈥檚 nice to speak to you again.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, because we have spoken over the years, haven鈥檛 we?

SCOTT-听听听听听听听听听听 We have, yes, on many occasions. And I鈥檓 thrilled to be here today and delighted to talk to you.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, well we are absolutely delighted to have you. Shall we just jump straight in with the first story and see how we get on? So, we heard recently that Mar Galcer谩n is the first person with Down鈥檚 Syndrome to become a parliamentarian in Spain. She was elected to the regional assembly in Valencia this week. And Galcer谩n might be the first in Europe to have achieved this according to Spain鈥檚 Down鈥檚 Syndrome Federation. And what I love about Mar Galcer谩n is that she has worked her way up. She鈥檚 45 now, she鈥檚 been in politics for 20 years, she鈥檚 been working on inclusive policy, and she鈥檚 also headed up a charity for families with children who have Down鈥檚 Syndrome as well. So, she鈥檚 worked really hard on disability stuff and now look where she is. It鈥檚 really impressive, isn鈥檛 it, Scott?

SCOTT-听听听听听听听听听听 I think it鈥檚 absolutely amazing. I think it鈥檚 the power of self-advocacy and people in Spain being able to use their own voice to get their voices heard. And I think it鈥檚 a really exciting opportunity for Mar to be able to influence the Spanish government and to influence the Spanish people. The first person with Down鈥檚 Syndrome to do that in Europe, that is absolutely amazing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You worked for the government and you have a learning disability. And when you were the co-tsar what were the things that were challenging about someone with a learning disability doing things around politics and around government? What were the things that were difficult?

SCOTT-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, I think for me it was about how you represented everyone鈥檚 views with a learning disability across the country, and their families鈥� views as well, and how you took those to the minister. Because I think what ministers in government like to have are the solutions to the problems as well; they don鈥檛 like to always work out the problems for themselves.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Okay, so you have to bring them the problem and the solution at the same time. And what about day-to-day work, did you have someone to help you? Do you think Mar will have maybe a support person or a co-MP with her?

SCOTT-听听听听听听听听听听 I think Mar will听 have a co-MP with her, yeah. So, the one thing I had is I was lucky enough to have a whole team of people around me to brief me and to be able to tell me what I was doing and where I was going, who I was going to be speaking to, and to tell me how I should be directing that conversation. However, I know, Emma, that what they tell me and what I say are two different things.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] so, you鈥檙e your own person and you always will be?

SCOTT-听听听听听听听听听听 Absolutely.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Another story in the news this week was about Lily Mills. And Lily Mills is off to the Australian Open to play in a learning disability tennis tournament. That鈥檚 pretty impressive too, isn鈥檛 it? You鈥檙e all getting out there doing your thing.

SCOTT-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh absolutely, we are all getting out there doing our thing. And Lily is an amazing lady to be able to get to do that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And here鈥檚 a clip of Lily from the 麻豆约拍 News at Ten:

[Clip]

PRESENTER-听 Is tennis the most important thing in your life, do you think?

LILY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes.

PRESENTER-听 Why?

LILY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Through tennis I have lots more friends. It gives me confidence. It gives me an opportunity.

PRESENTER-听 And you鈥檙e very good at it.

LILY-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thanks.

[End of clip]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Actually Lily鈥檚 mum said on the news piece that I watched that one of the reasons Lily loves tennis is because she鈥檚 better at it than anybody else. And that鈥檚 really interesting, isn鈥檛 it, because when you鈥檙e disabled sometimes it feels like it鈥檚 quite hard to find something that you鈥檙e better at than anybody else.

SCOTT-听听听听听听听听听听 Absolutely, it does feel hard.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 It is. What are you very, very good at would you say? What are you better at than anybody else, with a learning disability or without a learning disability?

SCOTT-听听听听听听听听听听 I think I鈥檓 really good for speaking up for people and really good at challenging people to achieve their goals, and making sure that people get that right support. I used to be really, really good at my athletics and running and achieving those goals as well. I was very inspired by these top athletes in the Paralympics and thinking one day I might get there. But unfortunately I didn鈥檛.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And is that because you didn鈥檛 practice enough?

SCOTT-听听听听听听听听听听 That is because I got a job [laughter] basically.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And you can relate to both Lily and to Mar, can鈥檛 you? You feel like your story is similar in a way.

SCOTT-听听听听听听听听听听 Absolutely yes. So, I think we鈥檝e all had very similar journeys where we鈥檝e had to all knock down barriers and smash it really out of the park to try and get what we need at the right time. But what I would say to people with a learning disability or people with Down鈥檚 Syndrome is that actually you can achieve what you want, you鈥檝e just got to put the hard work into doing it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, you鈥檙e smashing it as well, Scott. I know you were told that you wouldn鈥檛 be able to do lots of things that you鈥檝e done as well. So, thank you so much for coming on and chatting through this week鈥檚 brilliant news stories with me. And hopefully we鈥檒l get to speak to you again some time.

SCOTT-听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you, Emma. Lovely to see you.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听 Access All.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 If you spend some time on Instagram or TikTok, in amongst all those unlikely air fryer recipes and pictures of cats you may have come across Nina Tame. Nina only started talking about disability on social media in 2018, but she鈥檚 since turned it into a job, which is pretty impressive. She鈥檚 fiercely honest, she鈥檚 funny, she鈥檚 naughty online, and we are here for it. So, let鈥檚 get to know Nina a little bit better. Nina, thank you so much for joining us.

NINA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you so much for having me. I鈥檓 so excited to be here.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 What are the most regular things that you may post about?

NINA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I mean, I feel like primarily my page kind of is sort of 50% I鈥檇 like to think kind of done in a humorous way, like posts directed at non-disabled people about disability. And I feel like 50% of my posts are aimed at disabled people, just about kind of, you know, not being afraid to take up space, how do we deal with the intrusive questions that often come with disability. Even down to things like showing people how to pass a wheelchair user on the street, because, like, most of the time when I see somebody coming towards me and they see me, more importantly, coming towards them, people will literally jump out sometimes, like, into the road to get out of my way. And it鈥檚 kind of like little things like that I talk about. The little micro-aggressions I guess.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I had a guy once who pushed himself up against his van, so his face and his hands were against his van. My chair鈥檚 pretty big but it鈥檚 not ginormous.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. You said the word micro-aggression; that鈥檚 a very big scary word.

NINA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, one of the things that I really don鈥檛 like it when a stranger will come up to me, spot my wheelchair, whatever mobility aid, and then ask me what鈥檚 wrong with me. You know, 鈥淲hat鈥檚 wrong with you? What鈥檚 happened to you? What have you done?鈥� They just sort of want to know this information. And when I used to talk to the non-disabled people in my life about it they would tell me that I was kind of overreacting, that actually strangers are just being really nice to you, just answer them, and all of this. And it wasn鈥檛 until I spoke to kind of disabled people that they were like oh yeah, we hate that as well. And I say the term micro-aggression because I remember watching a YouTube video about it once, it was about a gnat bite might not hurt that much but if you鈥檙e continually being bitten by a gnat it kind of builds up and builds up.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

NINA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 If it鈥檚 a stranger asking me a personal medical question, whether it鈥檚 a stranger shouting across the street like some hilarious bit of banter about, you know, have I got a licence to drive my wheelchair or whatever it is, if it was just an isolated incident you鈥檇 probably just laugh it off and be like, this really weird thing happened to me, this stranger came and asked me my medical information. But when it鈥檚 happening to you kind of every single time you leave the house.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 the drip-drip, isn鈥檛 it, it鈥檚 the drip-drip effect?

NINA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, exactly. And then these little things kind of build up, and then people wonder why鈥� I always feel like disabled people are just constantly told that we鈥檙e angry or aggressive or something else and it鈥檚 like grr, why do you think we get so cross.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. So, you鈥檙e going to get a variety of different types of comments, and we鈥檝e spoken to Rosie Jones about trolls, we鈥檝e spoken to other disabled women particularly about the trolling on social media. Do you get that and how do you deal with it?

NINA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes. So, if you鈥檇 asked me a few months ago I might have said, oh it鈥檚 not that bad. And then I had a post of mine go, I guess yeah, go viral, it got over a million plays, and it was a really short post. I had glued some tiny little spikes, like what you鈥檇 get on a jacket or something, little metal spikes and I鈥檇 glued them along this strip and put it on the back of my chair in reference to the fact that sometimes people will literally come up and just grab me and push my chair.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, you made something that might hurt their hand a little bit, just a tiny bit?

NINA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Kind of. It was more of a case if somebody sees that they might鈥�because I don鈥檛 have handles on my chair. I used to and then this happened to me where people had pushed me a few times. And I was like, I won鈥檛 get handles and then they won鈥檛 try and push me. Apparently it makes no difference; people will still try and push you out of the way. Now, obviously these aren鈥檛 actual sharp spikes, but it was more the kind of visual of don鈥檛 touch type thing. So, it was a short, literally a ten-second video. Oh, the comments! So, for me I am, you know, I鈥檇 say I鈥檓 kind of midsized, I would say I鈥檇 count as plus sized in this country but that鈥檚 because all our shops are all ridiculous and what they consider plus size is, you know. But I鈥檓 a fat woman and I鈥檓 perfectly okay with that, very happy with that. But those were my comments, it was just endless comments just calling me fat. There was a lot of, oh well if I can鈥檛 push you I鈥檒l kick you down the stairs then.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Woah! Ableist comments about actually doing you harm?

NINA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. I would say there were about 600 comments I think.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Wow.

NINA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And it really did bother me at first. At first I was like, ha-ha, and then after kind of just reading them for a solid however long it really did, I had a real kind of couple of days just appalling mental health, just really took it far too much, sort of, yeah, just took it on board. And then I kind of had a big cry and I got out of that and had to really kind of reason with myself that for the most part these commentors are just 鈥� well not for the most part 鈥� anybody who puts something spiteful on somebody else鈥檚 page isn鈥檛 a happy person, isn鈥檛 a content person.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 going to just quickly go onto the fact that you鈥檝e got four boys.

NINA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 A disabled mum of four boys. We talk a lot about the difficulties of being a disabled person and those difficulties being, as you鈥檝e often said as well, about society basically and other people鈥檚 attitudes. But what would you say are the best things about being a disabled parent? And one of your kids is disabled as well, so being a disabled parent of a disabled child as well?

NINA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Obviously I was born disabled, but I鈥檝e only used a wheelchair in the last four years, no five years, however long. But basically with my older children, although I was still disabled I was walking around on two legs. I always say I鈥檝e parented on legs and I鈥檝e parented on wheels. And, as you say, for me the challenges that come with it are purely societal based: not being able to access places and all the rest of it. But there is so much joy. My youngest is six now, and he still loves riding around on my lap as much as he can. They take the mick with it. They鈥檒l get out of the shower and be like, 鈥淢ummy, can I just sit on your lap and you take me to my bedroom to get my pyjamas on鈥�. I鈥檓 like, 鈥淵ou鈥檝e got working legs; you need to make the most of them鈥�. But it鈥檚 nice. They think my wheelchair is fun. It鈥檚 got wheels. Kids love wheels. They just think it鈥檚 the best thing ever, and they鈥檝e never viewed it in that kind of pitying way. And for me just being around the kids, they鈥檙e the main people that just treat me exactly as who I am: I鈥檓 just me.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, warts and all and they take advantage of that, I鈥檓 sure. Mine have a little bit of that too [laughs].

NINA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, they massively do. Whenever we play a game where I鈥檓 chasing them around the house they鈥檙e straight up the stairs, nah, nah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah [laughs]. I haven鈥檛 been able to catch mine since they were about two. But it鈥檚 all part of the fun. Part of the fun is them knowing that they can absolutely outrun you, and you knowing too but still playing the game anyway.

NINA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 It is. We did it yesterday. Even down a hill they still manage to beat me. I start off strong and then they catch me up. But you know, just things like that. I can see other people sometimes, me and my youngest were at the top of this, like, slope yesterday just ready to absolutely race down it, and I can see other people looking and smiling because I feel like that in itself challenges people鈥檚 ideas about disability, oh she鈥檚 smiling, she鈥檚 happy, the child is happy, you know. And it鈥檚 not despite of.

And I think having a disabled kid, I mean he changed my life really. I mean, all my children changed my life, but having a child with the same disability as me when he was born instantly it was like my disability looked beautiful on him. And I was like, well surely I can accept the idea that it鈥檚 beautiful on me as well. And he was a real starting point for me embracing my disability, feeling neutral about my body as opposed to berating it, because there was no way he was ever going to hear me berate a part of my body that he has the same, just absolutely no way. And even when he started school, and we鈥檇 always told him, if somebody asks you about your disability you can answer how you want, make up a story if you want, whatever you want. And then he鈥檇 come back from school and just be so tired of people constantly asking. And then I was like, he doesn鈥檛 have to answer. This is actually a really rude, private question, of course he doesn鈥檛 have to answer. And we said to him, you can just tell people to bugger off if you want because they鈥檙e being nosey. It was that realisation that oh, neither do I.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And then it was the first kind of post I tentatively put up on my Instagram about disability was that, was around intrusive questions. I think I was expecting a load of backlash and just didn鈥檛 get it. I just got people going, oh yeah, we hate answering those questions too. I was like, I鈥檝e found my people! I grew up being pretty much the only disabled person I knew. I tried to hide my disability. I always internalised everything. I thought I was the problem, all of this stuff. And being able to bring him up from such a young age to understand what ableism is, to understand his disability, to understand what he鈥檚 potentially going to face and giving him the tools to be able to deal with intrusive questions and, you know, just to be able to empower him has been such a privilege.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, I love that. And that鈥檚 such a beautiful way to end this interview. Nina Tame, thank you very much for speaking to me. Where can people find you online?

NINA-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Nina Tame, across the board.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Nina, thank you.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you so much, Nina, I absolutely loved that chat. That鈥檚 it for this week. You can email us, we鈥檙e emailable accessall@bbc.co.uk. We鈥檙e on X, formerly known as Twitter, @麻豆约拍AccessAll. And I鈥檒l tell you what, we read every one of your messages and we absolutely love hearing from you. You can subscribe to us on 麻豆约拍 Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. And we鈥檒l see you next week, same time, same place, more disability and mental health. See ya.

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