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27th November 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 80

Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

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NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, have you got your tree up yet, Ems, Christmas tree?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Not yet. Wednesday is the day. What about yourself?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Fanfares] well, my mum just goes, she just loves it Christmas, yeah I know when I get home today the decorations are going to be, mwah, chef’s kiss.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh lovely.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know, it’s going to be trees, baubles, everything.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Is it, like, very classy little wooden ornaments and a bit of holly or whatever, or is it tinsel town?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, neither, you know. Mum’s not a knickknack type person. So, there’ll be no kind of like ornaments, but it’s very like in the American movies, Ems, they have these sort of houses and they’re, like, very classic and chic, the colours, it’s a very stylish Christmas.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ooh.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Not too many colours: golds, silvers, that sort of thing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And a lot of lights?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And lights, lots of fairy lights, Em.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, lovely. Well, I’m just going to take everything out of the boxes. I’m going to wait until my PA is there so that I have some sighted assistance because I’m going to put some lights up outside and stuff.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, do it without the PA, Ems. Come on, just shove up and see what it looks like.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, I’ve done that before. I’ve done that before and nobody’s complained.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, there you go.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But I just felt like I might get an eye over it this time. I will just get the tree out or get the box out and I’ll put everything in the box on the tree, and then I will find any leftover tinsel will be over banisters and pictures, and then I’ll throw a few ornaments out and that’ll be it. And then whatever Melissa thinks looks nice, my PA, in whatever spot we’ll go with that.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, but what if Melissa’s taste isn’t your taste?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’ve never decorated the house together, but I know it’s her thing so I’m quite excited about it.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Poor Melissa, there’s a lot of pressure now. We’ll have to take some pictures when it’s done.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Take some pictures. It’s a bit naughty of me but I quite like the idea of you doing a test, doing half your house as Emma without a PA, and half your house as Emma with PA, and then let’s judge it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, I’ll do it.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Make sure you audio describe them.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Uh, I’ll get somebody else to audio describe them.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yeah, that’s true [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Like Gogglebox. Somebody else will be describing them and then I’ll write them.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hello, hello. This is Access All, the Â鶹ԼÅÄ’s weekly disability and mental health podcast. Now, we’ve been told that we have to establish that we’re both disabled at the very top of this pod, so here we go: I’m Nikki Fox and both me and my scooter are in London.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I’m Emma Tracey, and I’m blind and I’m in Edinburgh, but I don’t believe the two things are linked.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] Do astronauts need legs in space – question mark? There’s a sentence, isn’t it? A year into his intensive training that’s one of the questions we’ll be putting to John McFall, the world’s first every parastronaut.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And we’ll be speaking to our friend, Simon Minty, who’s currently on this series of Gogglebox on Channel 4.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Get in contact, tell us what you think of the programme, we love to hear from you. You can message us on X @Â鶹ԼÅÄAccessAll is our handle. And you can email us accessall@bbc.co.uk. Right, let’s do this, people.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This time last year the world was focused on one man and that one man is John McFall. Because John was hired by the European Space Agency as the first disabled astronaut, or parastronaut. Now, 12 months on he’s been taking part in experiments to see what the disabled experience might be like when you are in space. And I am very glad to say he’s back to tell us more; he’s down the line. Hello John. How are you?

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I’m great guys. How are you?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re doing all right. The two old disabled birds are doing all right, John [laughter]. How has the past 12 months been for you?

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The past 12 months they have gone quick, not least because I had quite a lot of housekeeping to do before I even got out to Germany. So, I’m based in Cologne in Germany now and I have been here since June this year. But before I could get out here I had to, I wanted to get to a certain stage in my medical training.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This is great, because remind people of your credentials.

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve just been very lucky in my life. After losing my leg when I was 19, I loved sport, so I got back into running, and that took me to the Paralympic Games in Beijing in 2008 where I won a bronze medal in the 100m there.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Paralympics, check.

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, Paralympics, done that. And then I was like well, I should probably get a proper job. And I thought what would I like to have done if I hadn’t have wanted to join the army all those years ago and couldn’t now as an amputee. And I thought well, I’d love to be a doctor, love to do medicine. So, I went back to university at the age of 28 and studied medicine, and qualified in 2014 as a doctor and worked in the NHS.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was saying just before, you started your training in the summer, and you made an audio diary:

[Clip]

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve had a great day today. I’ve been meeting loads of people from the team here at the European Astronaut Centre. All the usual first day stuff: collecting IT; having a tour of the facility; I’ve been into the fantastic gym facility here; the neutral buoyancy facility where we do a lot of our diver training and those sorts of things. And it’s been an incredibly warm welcome here; And it’s actually great to finally be here.

[End of clip]

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was a big move for you though, wasn’t it, John? Because it’s not just for you, it’s for your whole family as well.

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s right. It was quite a big decision and quite a big move because orthopaedic surgery is quite a stable career, always got a future there and it’s an opportunity to grow professionally and provide a lot of support for my family and have a great family life. And then this comes along and throws a small spanner in the works. So, to decide to either temporarily or long term relinquish my profession as an orthopaedic surgeon was difficult.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then yes, as you mentioned, the other huge aspect of that is my wife with her friends and her family all in the UK, and having three children who are settled in the local schools and uprooting them and bringing them with me. So, yeah it was a difficult decision.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh lovely.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, what have you been doing since June in the training? What’s your day-to-day been like? What have the highlights been?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It says here a lot of water immersion [laughter].

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Part of the training process is basic water competency and sea survival. So, we went to the Baltic Sea, albeit it actually I think it was the end of July so it was actually very warm up in the Baltic Sea, but to do sea survival training.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s that been like? Have you had any mishaps or anything like that?

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You definitely get the idea of what it would be like to be…and you know those emergency sort of hexagonal or octagonal life rafts that kind of inflate?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The big orange ones with the little sort of canopies on them, and they’re designed to hold about 12 people. We had to do a simulation in one of those. They very much took advantage of my medical background and another of the astronaut candidate’s medical backgrounds by throwing a casualty at us that we had to rescue from the water. So, inside this life raft that’s on the ocean kind of bobbing up and down, and it’s hot out there, it’s about 32 degrees, and you’re in these full-body immersion suits and you’re inside this life raft and you’re assessing your airway, breathing, circulation, all those sorts of things that you’re doing, and you can’t see the horizon because you’re inside, and you’re gently swaying in this thing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ooh.

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, it’s a feat not to feel particularly seasick in, definitely.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Have you discovered any specific things that will need to be adapted so far? Is there anything that you’ve just said yes, that’s going to need to change and this is how we’ll change it?

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You have to consider, for example, what if you’re in your spacecraft, you’re sat on top of a rocket, you’re about to be launched and there’s an emergency that requires you to get out of the spacecraft, out back onto the crew access arm and evacuate the launchpad really rapidly. Well, I would find that pretty tricky to hop all the way down the crew access arm and into the, there’s a gondola that goes down a cable back down to the ground. That’s pretty difficult. So, as early as that we were like okay, I’m going to need to wear a prosthesis, I’m going to need to wear a prosthesis so I can safely and quickly get away from the spacecraft. And therefore that prosthesis that I wear has to be compatible with going into space.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, is that why, because there were headlines recently about your leg having to be tested so that it doesn’t poison the Space Station, which is what one headline said, is that what you mean? Is that what’s happening, is your fancy leg going off, or have you identified another leg that’s going off for testing?

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That was quite a dramatic headline that [laughs]. But what we were going to do for my leg is exactly the same for an iPad that you would fly to the ISS or a laptop or a camera or any other piece of hardware that goes up into space. It has to be verified and certified to make that journey. And referring back to that headline you’re talking about, hardware is made of different materials, and there are certain materials that you have to consider the gases that they continue to produce even after they’re made. The link that I drew with regards to my prosthesis is that where the prosthesis attaches to my leg, what we call the socket, that tends to be made using things like plastics and polymers and things like that, which can potentially produce gases after they’re made. But that’s the whole reason why we’re going through this testing process is to see if the current materials that we use to make my prosthesis are an issue. I will take my leg to space for six months, but whatever leg I take has to be made of materials that won’t produce these gases that I mentioned.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý One thing I am, well I would love to do, John McFall, is experience zero gravity. And that’s what you’ve done. What is it like? Tell me all about it.

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s a great experience, hey. And there is plenty of opportunity to do it.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah.

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I suggest that you give it a go if you ever get the chance.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’d love it, I’d love it!

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s a great experience.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý With your leg do you have your prosthetic on when you’re experiencing zero gravity or do you take it off?

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When I did my parabolic flights back in April this year I wore my prosthesis, so it didn’t really make a huge amount of difference; other than it normally relies on gravity for me to use it. So, in micro gravity when you start floating the knee won’t bend on its own because there is no gravity acting on it. So, if I want to bend it I have to really use one of my hands to bend it, or hook my other foot over it to bend it. But it’s a great feeling. It’s like something you can’t describe. You don’t know what it’s like until you’ve actually experienced it. But it’s kind of a cross between falling when you’re skydiving and being underwater; but you don’t have that friction of either the air or the water up against your skin.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh!

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý If that makes sense?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it makes total sense.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes. Ìý

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’d feel like I’d just go round pretending I was Superman.

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] I did try to give it the old Superman across the cabin, but it didn’t look very good in the end.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was just talking about skydiving recently, and I was saying how I didn’t really love that falling bit. And I think that was the reason why is that mass of airflow to your face and everything. I liked the floaty bit but not the first falling bit.

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Did you like the falling bit as you, you know that first three or four seconds when you fall out of the aeroplane and you’re sort of tumbling and your stomach goes, that sort of feeling?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Is that all it was, three or four seconds, John? Seriously! No, I didn’t like it [laughs].

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then you hit terminal velocity because you’ve got all that friction from the wind resistance, which is just all a little bit uncomfortable.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And your cheeks go.

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It goes like this [sucking cheeks in], and it’s all a bit ooh.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This is why you and I, Emma, will not go into space.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You see the difference here? [laughs]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sorry, so once you’ve done all that tumbling you settle down a bit?

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, when you’re skydiving you hit terminal velocity so you stop accelerating because the friction of the air that you’re falling against balances out your weight, and so you’re then falling at a constant velocity rather than accelerating. It’s the speed of the acceleration that gives you that tummy feeling.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right.

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, that initial three or four seconds where you fall out of the aircraft before you hit top speed.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý John, Nikki said in the introduction that you were hailed as the first para-astronaut, parastronaut. And we just wondered whether you like that label; is that what you want to be called?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What would you prefer to be called?

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, parastronaut was really useful at making people kind of understand what the European Space Agency were doing and looking for, because parastronaut, like the Paralympics, it’s in parallel with. I get that. And we had a big discussion in the Space Agency here with the communications team and we spoke about – because it is quite important going forward to get the phraseology and the terminology right I think – was it we’re trying to do. We’re trying to get inclusivity and equality and, I hate to say it, but sort of normalise things. I’ve said a couple of times I’m not a para-surgeon, I’m not a para-dad, you know; I’m a surgeon, I’m a dad. And if I’m an astronaut and I fly to space I will be an astronaut. I have a physical disability but I would prefer to be spoken of as an astronaut who has a physical disability rather than that prefix para, which automatically kind of makes people think well, he’s a parastronaut, he’s not an astronaut, and that in some way the duties or the abilities are different.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, in some ways you are saying that it kind of helped at the beginning to get the message and to make a big old fuss about it, and for people to understand and grasp it straightaway. But obviously as you get further on now really it’s not very progressive, is it? Like you say, you’re not a para-dad, you are an astronaut.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’ll call a prospective astronaut from now on, how about that?

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Prospective astronaut [laughs] yeah. Astronaut hopeful. It’s difficult, and I am in this kind of no-man’s-land a little bit at the moment because I’m not an astronaut candidate, like the other five astronaut candidates here who are doing basic training; I’m technically still part of the astronaut reserve corps because that’s what I was selected to, with a view to doing the feasibility study. So, I’m having a bit of an identity crisis [laughs].

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But yeah, if I go on to be a full-time astronaut then I will just be an astronaut.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What next? I mean, you’ve done this incredible thing. Do you imagine that this will open up a world to other people with other kinds of impairments as well? I imagine that I wouldn’t be suited with a muscle condition that affects all of my muscles.

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The short answer is at the moment we have to take things step by step. And if we think 200, 300 years from now where is human space exploration going to be, and hopefully in 200 or 300 years’ time and look back at this time and say, well listen, the very first time which we really started to explore this was in the early 2020s when this happened, and yes this was one disability, and I only represent a very, very small proportion of the disabled population, but it was the beginning, it was the steppingstone.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What a fella you are, John McFall, honestly. You’re smart, talented cookie. Really you’re doing great things. I suppose for a lot of disabled people, whatever your disability, having that accessibility ingrained at the early stages; and you can only do that when someone like you is there in the mix right from the start, trying to make things different. I just think you’re doing brilliant stuff. So, well done, John. It’s been an absolute pleasure to speak to you.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý If you would like to, I don’t know, follow in John’s footsteps, are you up for the challenge, then we’d love to hear from you. Let us know what you made of that interview. You can contact us in all the usual ways at Access All. John, it’s been a pleasure.

JOHN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s been great being on, thanks very much. And it’s been good to talk to you again.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The Autumn Statement was unveiled last week, and the content came as no surprise to us to be honest because the government has been hinting at the changes for a while. The statement included planned changes to unemployment benefits for disabled people. Luckily our Nikki Fox is the Â鶹ԼÅÄ’s disability correspondent, and Nikki, I’m really hoping that you can explain it all to us. And I’m really hoping you can do it in around 60 seconds.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hit me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Three, two, one, go!

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Background timer ticking] Okay, so after much speculation we now know for sure that the Work Capability Assessment is going to be reformed. So, basically the government wants to reduce the numbers of people who are declared unfit for work. And when I say unfit for work I mean the people who are too unwell to work, and crucially have no requirement to work. Now, the government’s thinking behind this is that the COVID pandemic has opened up the world of work for many people, and I’m talking about greater flexibility like working from home. Although disabled people and campaigners say…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Twenty seconds.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý …the world of work – oh yeah, yeah, yeah – hasn’t changed that dramatically that suddenly loads more disabled people can get loads of jobs working from home. We know that that’s not the case. Now, we also know that the disability employment gap – now, that is the difference between the numbers of disabled people in work compared to those who haven’t got a disability – is just under 30%. And it’s hovered around that mark for as long as I’ve been in the job. That is a decade, Emma Tracey. Now, these changes are due to be introduced in 2025.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Five seconds.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But they won’t affect existing claimants; new claims only.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Bell rings] wow, awesome!

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Panting]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That was absolutely fantastic.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thanks, Em.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What about money, is the government planning more money?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, the government says there’s going to be £1.30 billion worth of funding, Em, over the next five years to help nearly 700,000 people with health conditions find jobs. There’s also going to be another £1.3 billion worth of funding to offer extra help to the 300,000 people who have been unemployed for more than a year. Now, we’ve heard of tougher sanctions, that’s what worried a lot of disabled people and campaigners. Now, claimants in England and Wales who are deemed able to work, who refuse to seek employment, will lose access to their benefits and extras like free prescriptions. That’s what tougher sanctions means. A worrying time for many people who are really struggling, that’s the feeling that I’m getting. And I think this is very important: no one in the limited capability for work related activity or limited capability for work groups – I know that sounds very confusing but that’s what they’re called – no one from either of these groups will face benefit sanctions, and all support offered will be voluntary. And all of these changes are going to come into effect in 2024. Oh, sped up again.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, those work groups that you mentioned, they’re people deemed unfit to work, to look for work?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes. Also some long overdue news for disabled people: PIP, personal independence payments, or DLA because I know some people are still on DLA, disability living allowance, that’s to go up by 6.7%, along with most other working age benefits. But we must remember as we know, we’ve covered this on the podcast many times, life costs more if you’re disabled, and the government is now winding down its cost of living payment. So, crucially no new targeted support was announced at the Autumn Statement, despite disabled people having very high, sky high bills. And of course the energy price cap is predicted to increase again this winter. So, worrying for many people, and I’m seeing that on social media.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You can take a breath now, Nikki. No more timers, okay.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What are the charities saying about this?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, James Taylor, the director of strategy at disability Equality Charity Scope, James said that the Autumn Statement was a missed opportunity to set out how disabled people can thrive, instead now many will be thinking how will they survive. Dr Sarah Hughes, chief executive of the mental health charity Mind, called the Autumn Statement a backwards step for the UK, which people with mental health problems will feel sharply. So, some strong words there.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. So, what have you got to say about it, listeners? You can email us accessall@bbc.co.uk, and you can tweet us @Â鶹ԼÅÄAccessAll.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, if you are a fan of entertainment TV you might recognise our next guest’s dulcet tones from your Friday night viewing. It’s only Simon Minty. Now, Simon is one of the current stars of Gogglebox, alongside his magnificent sister Jane. But he’s so much more than that. We know, we’ve known him for a while. As well as running his own consultancy business to make companies more inclusive, he’s on the board of the National Theatre, and he’s won several international sporting medals – I actually didn’t know that – at the World Dwarf Games. And he also used to present Â鶹ԼÅÄ Ouch, the OG to Access All, the orig. Hello Simon.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] hi Nikki. How are you doing?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That was an introduction, wasn’t it?

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That was amazing.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, listen, it’s rare to get a one to one interview with Simon these days. So, as the current series is coming to a close we thought we’d make this one a Gogglebox special.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Great idea.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because you can say so much.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You know I can’t. You’re so mean!

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But I wanted to know if there’s a WhatsApp group.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Is there?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Is there a WhatsApp group with all the Goggleboxers?

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, again, you’re already starting. I can’t.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You can’t say anything? How tight was that NDA you had to sign?

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s just the way it is. It’s just the way it is.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, do you know what, I don’t want to know anything. I just love seeing you on the programme. I know how hard you’ve worked, I know how talented you are and I know all the incredible things you’ve done in your life, but now just to see you it’s Gogglebox, it’s a bit of entertainment, but it’s so enjoyable, it’s such a brilliant programme. Everyone knows you now. How does that feel?

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was speaking to your producer, Damon, before we came in and I said people have always stared at me because I’m short, I have dwarfism, and I use a mobility scooter. And people stare at me still and now I don’t know why they stare at me. And the weird disability bit is when people go, ‘Oh that must be so much better now’ and I don’t feel comfortable saying that because that sort of devalues them looking at me before.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I get really muddled about all that.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But do you find life is a little easier as a disabled person now that you’re a famous disabled person? That’s an awful question but I just wondered.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Occasionally. People are a little bit warmer or nicer or smiley, but you never know. And I’m always sort of overly friendly with people in shops anyway. So, a bit of me is like it’s the same as it ever was. I don’t know. I don’t know if I’m milking the perks enough, if that’s what you’re saying.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] no. I think you need to get on board, because I remember when I started doing How to Look Good Naked I started getting attention from men way better looking than me.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ooh.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I did. It was beautiful.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Actually I remember sending you the message [laughter].

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re on Gogglebox with your sister, Jane, and she’s also just a great character. What is that like? Have you guys always been close?

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think we have been close. My sister, she’s my sister, she’s a couple of years older than me, she says it as it is, so she’s pretty straightforward. We support each in different ways. I don’t see her every day, I don’t message her every day; it’s not that kind of sibling relationship. She’s had to play a different role for so many years in that being the visibly different one everyone always spoke to me. And it would always be, ‘Oh I’m not Jane, I’m known as Simon’s sister’.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The bit that is lovely now is she’s come into her own and she’s her own person.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But what was it like growing up? Do you think it was different to other brother/sister relationships? I can say from my own we still, like, killed each other and had all the fights and all that kind of stuff.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] yeah. It’s a running joke that if Jane ever comes near me I just have to shout out, ‘Mind my neck! Mind my neck!’ and she gets told off [laughter]. Just because of something I learnt from Great Ormond Street when I was younger about an issue with my neck. So, there was manipulation of disability when it works.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, we went to the same school in high school and I remember she said, ‘Oh they had an assembly and they said that you were coming and da, da, da’. She plays it down. She’s like oh god, whatever. But occasionally, I remember going on holiday with her a few years ago, and we just went for a walk along the beach and she went, ‘I cannot believe how many people stare at you!’ And I said, ‘I didn’t even know anyone was’. So, there were sort of these little moments of she becomes protective or thoughtful. I always wonder that childhood thing of me being the centre of attention was that helpful or not to her. And we’ve had real big chats about it, and she’ll say, ‘You’re very lucky that you always got that attention’ and I said, ‘I envied you because I couldn’t turn it off. You were allowed to just go quiet and didn’t get it all, so’.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And be invisible.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Exactly.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And fade into the background.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, as well as being on TV you’re also a proper, I like the word that I’ve written, a proper entrepreneur. You’ve got your own business which offers training, and you’re on the National Theatre board, which we mentioned. And you’ve been in this industry for a really long time now, and I was listening to a little talk you gave – it wasn’t, it was about 20 minutes – and it was on inclusion and diversity and all of that kind of stuff. And I just wondered, you definitely gave the sense that you feel that it’s getting better.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hmm.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But how much better? How far do we have to come for full inclusion?

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t know what utopia is, I don’t know when. And I think each generation their expectations will be greater than the previous one. And that’s as it should be. So, things that I think are amazing they’re taking for granted. And we just keep going and keep going and one day maybe it’ll all be relaxed and cool and everything.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, it can’t go unchecked, Simon, that 3rd December is the UN International Day of Persons with Disabilities. How will you be celebrating?

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I always call is the Day of Us.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s nice.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think that’s the shortcut.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Catchier.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, [laughs] it’s a little bit easier. Because of my work it means it’s the busy time of year. Everybody cares about disability, but they care a lot about it because they’ve got a hook. So, I’m doing a couple of talks or quizzes and stuff like that. I don’t know if I’m celebrating it with my other disabled friends. Maybe I need to.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. Well, maybe we should have a Zoom [laughs].

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, it’s a Sunday, isn’t it?

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, that’s true.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do we still need that day then? If disabled people aren’t necessarily coming together – and maybe lots of them are, but I don’t have a plan to meet disabled folk – do we still need days like these? What are they for?

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have debated that for many years, and I think my two responses, which I’m stealing from other wiser people, one was: sometimes it’s good just to remember and pause. It’s a bit like Mother’s Day and Father’s Day, you go on we don’t need them, and I’m like as long as you do appreciate your parents then.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because people go we don’t need them and then don’t do anything. And you’re like, that’s not great. So, I like the focus just every now and again just to remind us.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A present and a card would be nice.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Exactly. Oh, for us you mean?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I totally agree.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý As in like Mother’s Day or Father’s Day.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, that’s a very good point. We need to push it.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Congratulations, you made it.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The other bit is we are, don’t get me wrong, a long way to go and lots of issues, but we are in a country where we have certain legislation, certain rights, certain support. The International Day, part of the UN, this is really impactful in other countries where disability is not on the agenda as strongly. Whilst we might smile at it, it’s a bit of fun, it’s a hook da, da, da, there’s other countries that this is really, really critical because it just gets governments and bodies and NGOs to actually kind of concentrate.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. You recently went to compete in the eighth World Dwarf Games in Cologne.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I did.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This is amazing. Tell me about this and how on…did you get into it?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How on earth! She was about to say how on earth [laughs] because we don’t know you as sporty.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, we don’t. it’s not that I don’t think you could be sporty, don’t get me wrong, you’re a fine figure of a man.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, a bit of a tummy, but thanks.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I actually didn’t know how you’d have the time to be honest was my main thing.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Good get out. Good save.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I just never saw him as sporty, honestly. I’m going to be truthful about it.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s sort of turned this, hasn’t it? You were bigging me up and it’s all gone a bit weird now [laughter].

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, but tell us it. When did you get so sporty, Simon, come on, tell us?

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There is an organisation in the UK called the Dwarf Sports Association UK, and it’s been around 30 plus years. And I’d always go to it, and for many years I was like a journalist, I’d write about it because I didn’t want to compete. And then over the last five or six years I’m like, stop it now, you’ve got to do something. You start with boccia, which is the beanbag game, most peopleÌý can play it. And then I did rifle shooting, but there was the World Games in Cologne, the eighth, so they’re every four years they are, they’re really rare.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wow.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, exactly. And they said we’re not doing shooting, we can’t get the rifles, the permit. And I said, I can’t just do boccia, I’ve got to do something else. So, I thought I’d do this, it’s called a bench press: you lay on your back, you push the weights up. I joined the gym a year before and I said to my trainer would you help me. So, we really racked it up. The last session I had with him we did it real condition, so I had to wear all my kit, he was timing me, I had to do a warm-up. I wanted him to get the whole of the gym to start cheering and clapping, but he wouldn’t do that [laughter]. And then I mean, the add-on by the way, I’m a little bit older than most of the competitors. And they do it by weight, so you’re categorised by your own weight, not by your age.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Which I thought oh, I don’t stand a chance [laughs] I mean, I’m like 15 plus minimum, if not more, years older than everybody else. But I did manage to medal. And the reason I medalled was because I had three good lifts of around 50kg. And the guy who won did 120kg in one lift.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wow.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But he failed his other two.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, you were slow and steady wins the raise.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Exactly. I’m the tortoise yeah, you’ve got it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re the tortoise.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Exactly.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Can I ask why is it weight? Why does it go by your weight?

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I presuming that your weight means you might have more strength or more capability. I mean, people with dwarfism have different length arms, and I’m almost like surely it should be length of our limbs and so on.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, yeah.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And there was the awful moment, the night before we had to do weigh in, and someone said you’ve got to go down to that room, and there was a big partition and I walked round the other side of it and there’s 25 blokes with dwarfism all in their underwear. And I thought, well I haven’t done this for a while, if ever. And we’re all standing around in our pants just chatting about what we’re going to do tomorrow, and all our bodies are a little kind of sticking out here and sticking out there – not that bit [laughter] – our general shape. I mean, it’s also I double up, I love it because of the sport and I’m a middle-aged man or older man doing athletics that I never did. And as you said, you never saw me like that, so that’s…

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How do you find the time? How do you find the time, Simon Minty?

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý When you’re an elite athlete like me, Nikki, your body’s telling you. I’m making this up. I don’t know [laughter]. I’m struggling now. The flipside, don’t forget, which is the bit I love which is hanging out with 600 people from all around the world, just like me.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We were in the club the last night and I couldn’t get out; there was a sea of people and I thought oh, I’m on my scooter, this is going to take forever to bump through them. And I started moving and then the sea just opened, they all moved out of the way and they all made sure everyone else… And I’m like when you’re with people like you just all get it. So, there’s lovely moments like that.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m in it for the pants chat. Oh Simon, it’s just been such a treat to have you in.

SIMON-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Are we done?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t want us to be done. Are we really done? I’m asking the gallery. Oh, we are. No!

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, I absolutely loved, loved speaking to Simon Minty there. What a superstar. We both love him, we both know him, but more people are going to get to know and love him now on Gogglebox which makes me very happy.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, that is it for this week. If you are not already subscribed to Access All then please do go to Â鶹ԼÅÄ Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts and hit the subscribe button. Thank you, thank you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And once you’ve done the subscribe-y thing you can open up your social media and follow us on X @Â鶹ԼÅÄAccessAll. You can also email us accessall@bbc.co.uk. And we read every single message.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, until next week. Thank you so much for listening people. Bye.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Bye.

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