麻豆约拍

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20th November 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 79

Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

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NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You know we did that story not long ago about how some disabled people struggle to weigh themselves?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yes. Good story.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Very good story. Well, I actually got weighed. I went for a specialist hospital appointment and they were like, 鈥淗ow much do you weigh?鈥� I was like, 鈥淎nyone鈥檚 guess, love鈥�. And they said, 鈥淲ell, we鈥檒l get you weighed鈥�. And I鈥檓 like, 鈥淲ell, I can鈥檛 because I can鈥檛 stand up on scales鈥�. And it was like, 鈥淣ikki, we鈥檝e got accessible scales here鈥�. And I was like, 鈥淲ell, first time, love, I鈥檒l tell you鈥�. So, yeah, I got off my scooter, sat on the accessible scales; I now know how much I weigh.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 For the first time in鈥�?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 For the first time in absolutely donkey鈥檚 years.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Like ten years?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Probably longer. It could be longer, Ems.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Wow.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, much so that I nearly fell off the scales when they told me [laughter]. I mean, you know, it鈥檚 just numbers and all of that; let鈥檚 not get hung up. It鈥檚 good to have a bit of junk in the trunk and all of that [laughs]. But yeah鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 good to be armed with the information.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 good for health reasons. I was about a stone heavier than I thought I was. I certainly don鈥檛 feel bad. I love food too much.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Love food.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And I will never, ever stop eating lots of lovely food. I鈥檒l just have to be a bit fitter.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 just that everybody else has the information so why shouldn鈥檛 you?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, and we need to. We need to know where we鈥檙e at, eh? If we want to keep in tip-tip condition.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Tip-top.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Or the best we can, within reason, then we need to know. Yay for sit-down scales.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 What is your favourite food?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Do you know what, it鈥檚 going to sound really, really bourgeois, avocado.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Really?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And it鈥檚 not good for the environment as well, so I鈥檓 trying to limit, because not good getting flown over from鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 know if I鈥檝e ever heard someone say avocado is their favourite food.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I can鈥檛 tell you how much I love avocados. I mash them, I squeeze some lemon, have it on some toast. This is just the bourgeois-ist lunch I can imagine. And then maybe a poached egg on top of that.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I mean, that does sound delicious.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, it鈥檚 so delicious.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 But I think if I was told to have my last meal I think it鈥檇 probably be chips.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs].

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听 Theme music.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Welcome to Access All. We are the 麻豆约拍鈥檚 disability and mental health podcast. Thank you so much for listening. I鈥檓 Nikki Fox in London.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 and I鈥檓 Emma Tracey and I鈥檓 in Edinburgh. And it doesn鈥檛 come across too clearly on a podcast, this being audio, but we are both disabled people.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Are you joking? It鈥檚 all we talk about [laughs].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Well.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Coming up this week, that Tardis better have step-free access because Doctor Who returns this weekend and the magnificent actor, Ruth Madeley, well she鈥檚 in it. How exciting.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 She is. I want to ask Ruth whether her wheelchair is bigger on the inside than the outside.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Mm. And later on we are going to be chatting to the shadow disability minister that is Labour鈥檚 Vikki Foxcroft.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Follow us on X. You can read our articles on the 麻豆约拍 News website. And we do a transcript every week; the best way to find that is through your favourite search engine. We are not just a podcast!

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Just a little insight into how we have to sometimes do things here: this next interview was actually recorded before the rest of the show today, and Nikki was stuck in traffic for the start of it, but she does come in near the end.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 British TV institution, Doctor Who, is 60 years old this year, and there are three anniversary episodes to celebrate. Starring alongside David Tennant and Catherine Tate in the episode or episodes is fabulous, brilliant, wonderful disabled actor Ruth Madeley. And she is hear for a chat. Hi Ruth. How are you?

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 so happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 We wanted to ask you, Ruth, lots of different questions about the episodes, about your character, about your set.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 [laughs]

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 But we are being told that it absolutely has to stay a complete surprise, and we totally understand that. So, we鈥檙e going to ask what we can and get out of you what we can.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And I will answer what I can, I promise.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Okay. So, Ruth, episode or episodes, do we know? Can you say how many?

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Who knows? Who knows? The Whoniverse knows!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 The Whoniverse knows, yeah [laughs]. Well, I鈥檓 actually no Whovian, I鈥檒l be honest; I鈥檓 not an expert on Doctor Who. But I know a guy who is, and he is on the line with me to help me feel a bit less clueless and to maybe ask some sensible questions. It鈥檚 Tom Harries, disabled Doctor Who YouTuber. This is his job: he makes videos about Doctor Who, and often talks about disability in them. We call you Tharries, is that right?

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, that鈥檚 right, yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, I鈥檓 going to put your research to the test. For people who don鈥檛 actually know and who have either been under a rock or in a country where it isn鈥檛 on, what is Doctor Who? It鈥檚 a kind of a sci-fi thing with Time Lords, kind of family friendly; that鈥檚 sort of where I am with it.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, pretty much. It鈥檚 like a sort of family I guess sci-fi adventure series that stars the Doctor, who鈥檚 the lead character, who鈥檚 a Time Lord, travels through time, fights monsters, meets people and saves the day. That鈥檚 the general gist of Doctor Who.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And with that in mind where do you come in, Ruth? What鈥檚 your role?

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, I play a character called Shirley Ann Bingham, and she鈥檚 amazing. She is very, very forward. She鈥檚 a badass. She鈥檚 Northern. She is fearless. And I love that for her. I can鈥檛 tell you what her specific role is and where she fits in.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Okay.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But I am very, very confident that people are going to really, really enjoy her presence in the Whoniverse.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And what does she look like? You I presume, but鈥�

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 She鈥檚 a manual wheelchair user. She鈥檚 light skinned with dark blonde hair with a thick fringe. And she has awesome, like she power dresses, so she鈥檚 got these fabulous blazers and jumpsuits. She鈥檚 always just very well put together.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And Ruth, what about representation of disabled people, are we in a new era? Are we suddenly we鈥檝e got all these new disabled people, two new disabled people in Doctor Who 鈥� well, you鈥檙e not new as a disabled actor but new to Doctor Who 鈥� do you think we鈥檙e getting better?

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Absolutely yeah. I think it鈥檚 long overdue. I mean, it鈥檚 about bloody time, isn鈥檛 it, [laughs] let鈥檚 face it. I do think it鈥檚 a new era of inclusion, and it just enhances everything about the show I think. I mean, if you鈥檝e got a character running around with two hearts [laughs] I think it鈥檚 not a massive stretch to put a few disabled people in there.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And that鈥檚 one of the wonderful things about Russell T Davies is he is such an ally and such a powerhouse for inclusion, that I think he was always going to do that and he was always going to do that right when he came back.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I remember you working with him in Years and Years as well. I was curious like whether it 鈥� obviously I loved Years and Years and I loved Rosie in Years and Years as well鈥�

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, thank you.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 鈥�and in that show Rosie is very independent and very well written, and her disability is very much core to her character. And there鈥檚 a lot of interesting conversations that take place within that show surrounding that.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, I was wondering if Russell was part of the draw for you to be in Doctor Who? Did he entice you more because it was Russell and you鈥檇 worked with him before and you knew how great he was?

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 100%. If he鈥檇 asked me to come and make the tea for everyone on set I鈥檇 have been like yeah, just tell me what time.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, Years and Years, a dystopian drama about the near future, am I right?

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 But honestly, the character of Rosie I think we all said, ah, we just breathed a sigh of relief, I think, there鈥檚 a rounded person doing all sorts of different stuff and is disabled also.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Also, yeah. And that鈥檚 one of the great things about that character is we said it wouldn鈥檛 have made an ounce of difference to the story if she鈥檇 been blind, deaf, had limb difference, facial difference, it wouldn鈥檛 have changed the story of the actual scripts.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, does Russell make sure his sets are accessible, like all of Years and Years?

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 All of Doctor Who, every bit of it?

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Every bit of it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Because really want we want to ask about is the Tardis, what do you think of the new Tardis? Is it cool?听

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, you鈥檙e going to love it, you鈥檙e going to love it. It鈥檚 amazing. I was very excited when I saw it, so.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Excellent. I have to say when I was younger with the Police Box end of it, I always imagined as a kid, because you know with the box itself there鈥檚 kind of a lip going up to the doors?

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 If that makes sense. I always thought, would the chair be able to get over it? Would I be able to flip it back far enough to get into the box? So, to see that that might not be as much of an issue would be great [laughs].

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think you and other viewers will be very happy, that is all I will say.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs].

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Fair enough, fair enough.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Would it be okay if we tiptoed away from Doctor Who 鈥� I know everyone鈥檚 very excited, I know Tom Harries you鈥檙e besides yourself 鈥� but would it be okay if we just moved on to other bits of Ruth鈥檚 amazing life and career? Because I saw an Instagram post with a picture of a hand with ring at the weekend.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Aha.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And a date. Did you or did you not, Ruth Madeley, get engaged recently?

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I did engaged, yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yay! Congratulations.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Very, very thrilled.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Congratulations.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you very much, yes, yes. It was very, very鈥�it鈥檚 been a very fun past month [laughs].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, you鈥檝e had a lot going on. And you鈥檝e been with 鈥� is his name Joe?

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Joe, yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檝e been with him for a long time so it鈥檚 very exciting, really pleased to see that. He鈥檚 been in lots of your documentaries and things, hasn鈥檛 he, he鈥檚 popped up?

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Much to his despair. He thinks what I do for a living is hysterical. It鈥檚 his idea of hell.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs].

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But yeah, we鈥檝e been together for ten years and we鈥檝e known each other pretty much all our lives.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Ah.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, it鈥檚 about time I had this ring on my finger [laughter].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Is he in the other room by any chance?

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, he鈥檚 not.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Have you chosen your dress yet?

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, not yet. I鈥檓 literally three weeks engaged, so I鈥檓 trying to pace myself.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs].

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But it鈥檚 going to be beautiful, I鈥檓 telling you!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Ah, of course it is. Because you鈥檝e done a lot of fashion recently: you鈥檝e been in Vogue; you鈥檝e been on the London Fashion Week catwalk. Is this is a new joy for you?

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I mean, funnily enough I鈥檝e always been into fashion, and my grandma was a dressmaker, and when I was very young my plan was always to be a fashion designer. So, fashion has always been a massive part of my world. I love putting together an outfit, I love getting dressed up for events, and I love being dressed by designers. But this year to be able to do London Fashion Week was a very new thing and I loved it. I鈥檓 a sponge, I love doing different things.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I like finding interest in different things, and then I like moving on to something else. I just feel very privileged to be able to do it all.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And that was with Victoria Jenkins鈥� label, and she鈥檚 been on our podcast a couple of times, and she makes adaptive and beautiful clothes that disabled people can get into. Hooray!

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 She鈥檚 amazing.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hey guys!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh my goodness, someone has just shown up at the last minute.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hi.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Nikki Fox is now also in the studio, who got stuck in traffic.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I did. Oh Ruth, how are you darling?

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 good. How are you?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, I鈥檓 delighted to be here, even if it is just for the last five minutes. For you Ruth, I actually didn鈥檛 put any make-up on today. I left an hour earlier. I was like I鈥檓 going to get to the Madeley. And as it turned out I didn鈥檛 [laughs], I didn鈥檛 make it.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, you did. You鈥檙e here.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Ruth, I was going to ask you a question, but I think you might have gone past the old Doctor Who stuff. But I wondered, Russell T Davies, I saw him at an award ceremony and he gave the most amazing speech, I nearly stood up 鈥� and I can鈥檛 stand up 鈥� like, it was just so good.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 how good he is. That is how good he is.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 He is amazing, isn鈥檛 he? And I know you guys work really closely together, and I was just wondering is he kind of like an ally or is he just the spotter of really good, well ridiculously good disabled talent I wonder? Or is it both?

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I mean I feel very privileged to have worked with him in a professional capacity and collaborated with him to create a really authentic disabled character in Years and Years. But then I have been lucky enough from that experience to away from work to be able to call him my mate. He is a true ally. He didn鈥檛 have the knowledge of disability and inclusion and all of that stuff for any disability, but when he met myself he was very keen to learn more.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 But it is just lovely, isn鈥檛 it, when you meet someone like that, especially in your professional life?

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Absolutely.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 That just wants to get it, wants to understand and is interested.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Not enough of them.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 So interested. And you feel so safe when you鈥檙e working with him.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, I love that. Oh, what else did you girls talk about while I was away?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, so many things. But we have superfan, Tom Harries, here.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, hey Tom.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Hi, nice to meet you.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Lovely to meet you darling.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 We thought it would be nice to give Tom the last question. So, Tom, is there a question that you, a burning question that you wanted to ask Ruth or about Doctor Who? And she might not answer it at all.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Try your luck!

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Okay. I鈥檓 going to try and make it my best that you can answer. One thing I wanted to ask is there鈥檚 kind of a longstanding tradition in fiction of kind of this stereotype of the disabled villain. And I wanted to ask you how does it feel to be the trailblazer in sort of inverting that stereotype in a sense, being a protagonist in one of the biggest shows of the year, one of the biggest science fiction properties ever? Does that mean a lot to you?

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 huge.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Because I know seeing a protagonist up there with David Tennant it鈥檚 so wonderful to see.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Ah, well you鈥檙e going to make me cry for a start.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Ah!

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Ah!

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Sorry.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You know what, I mean I grew up in a world of when a disabled character was on screen they were usually evil. Their disability was a mark of their badness. As far as I remember I don鈥檛 think I ever saw a disabled actor playing a disabled character. So, this whole experience for me has been a lot. For me I do feel that if I鈥檓 in a short film, if I鈥檓 in one scene of a whole series I always feel so privileged. But to be able to have an important character within such a legacy of a show is hopefully what people have been waiting for for a long time. And I just hope, I sincerely hope I have done you all proud. But at the same time I do think you鈥檙e going to love it because Russell is a genius at what he does.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you so much for coming on Ruth.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 gutted I only got the last five minutes.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Don鈥檛 be silly. I鈥檓 so happy to see you all, and thank you for being so lovely.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Ah!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Ah, thank you. And thank you Tom as well.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thanks Tom.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 No problem. No worries at all.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Lovely to meet you Tom.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Lovely to meet you too.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I can鈥檛 wait to hear what you think about it, I really can鈥檛.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 looking forward to it. I鈥檓 besides myself excited [laughs]. I was just at a convention the other week, so I鈥檓 hoping maybe you might start seeing people doing cosplays of you.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 To be fair if that happened I genuinely think I would 鈥� I鈥檓 such an emotional person, I鈥檓 a nightmare; my other half鈥檚 always shouting at me for crying at everything 鈥� I think I would break down in tears. I think you鈥檇 have to pick me up off the floor. That would be a huge thing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Did you say cosplays?

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, cosplays. That鈥檚 when people go to conventions and things they dress up as the characters from various different shows and films and stuff like that. So, you know, we might get a few Shirley Ann Bingham鈥檚 in there.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yay! Listen, Doctor Who, the first anniversary special is on Saturday night on 麻豆约拍 One.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Sounds amazing.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Afterwards on iPlayer. And you can see Tom Harries on YouTube talking about it, probably for quite a long time, at Tharries, T-H-A-R-R-I-E-S.

TOM-听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Ah, thank you guys.

RUTH-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you guys. See you next time.

JINGLE-听听听听听听听听听 Access All.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 a Celebrity is back, Nikki.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I know.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And it made me wonder, have you ever been approached to go into the jungle?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] there鈥檚 not any of them I could do, Ems. Even MasterChef would be a challenge. When you鈥檙e disabled from the top of your head to the tips of your toes, I don鈥檛 know whether I鈥檇 be any good, would I? And I certainly couldn鈥檛 do I鈥檓 a Celeb. I mean, I couldn鈥檛 do I鈥檓 a Celeb for the physicality because I watched it last night, they were jumping out of planes, they were sticking their heads in barrels, they were trying to get stars off these things with snakes.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You have to be the right kind of disabled for these shows, is that what you鈥檙e saying?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You kind of do, yeah. A bit more kind of, let鈥檚 just say a bit of a minor disabled, eh?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Could I do it? I think I鈥檇 find some of the challenges easier than sighted people.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, you鈥檇 be fine because you wouldn鈥檛 see the snakes and the spiders and stuff, would you?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 No. I mean, I鈥檇 feel them and I鈥檇 have the same sort of gut reaction. But I can go on the highest rollercoasters because I can鈥檛 see down.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Really?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I mean, I鈥檓 sure there are blind people who hate rollercoasters because everyone鈥檚 different. But yeah, I probably could do a lot.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 What鈥檚 the most adventurous thing you鈥檝e ever done? The scariest thing you have ever done, Emma Tracey?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I did a skydive once.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Did you?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You jumped out of a plane?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I did, in California.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Tandem?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] yes, tandem! And the thing about tandem is if you want to or not you鈥檙e going, because they literally鈥�

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, you鈥檝e got no choice.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 鈥�you sit on the edge and they like bop you out, they just like push off, and off you go.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] could you imagine if you had done it on your own, Geronimo!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Where am I supposed to land? Not there! not there! [Laughter] not there!

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You would literally need someone to boot you out, wouldn鈥檛 you? You鈥檇 be like, where鈥檚 the hatch? I presume you鈥檇 feel it when you get there.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, someone leads you towards the hatch before it opens. You鈥檙e kind of ready to jump out, but鈥�

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 The ground might be a bit of a surprise.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, no because you start off in a skydive鈥�

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, but if you did it on your own, Em.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, well no because you start off and you go really fast, before your parachute opens you鈥檙e just falling from the aeroplane, and the air鈥檚 coming at you so quick you have to kind of close your mouth, close your eyes. It鈥檚 unbelievable. It just feels like you鈥檙e falling out of an airplane, as you are. And then your parachute opens, and then it鈥檚 quite sort of la, la, la, la.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 This is a very average description here, Ems. I was expecting more, I鈥檒l be honest. You jump, you feel air and then your parachute opens [laughs].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You feel like you鈥檙e falling out of an aeroplane. Your stomach鈥檚 in your mouth.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 There you go, get a bit audio descriptive, love. Come on!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I mean, also you鈥檙e attached to someone else. And you're falling like a stone. Falling like a stone! And then they鈥檙e like, 鈥淩ight we鈥檙e going to open the parachute now鈥�. And you鈥檙e like does it open, will it open, or just if it doesn鈥檛 I鈥檓 dead.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Do you feel your cheeks going all [sucks in breath]?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, sucked in.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh sucked in, okay.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I didn鈥檛 love that bit actually. Can you tell? I didn鈥檛 love the falling out of the aeroplane.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 No.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 But I didn鈥檛 mind when the parachute opened, because you鈥檙e kind of floaty, floaty. You can hear people on the ground before you hit it.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檙e a daredevil, Emma Tracey.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, it鈥檚 not too bad. Well, yeah, I wouldn鈥檛 do it again.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs] done once, never again.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I also climbed Machu Picchu, I wouldn鈥檛 do that again either.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh here we go, it鈥檚 all coming out now, isn鈥檛 it?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I know. You thought I was not that disabled person, didn鈥檛 you?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, I didn鈥檛 think you鈥檙e not that disabled person, Emma, no. You did tell me once you did some kind of walking challenge and you got a coach halfway to take the weight off your feet.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I literally got a coach for a mile or two, anyway.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 It was still a mile, Emma Tracey.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, listen, could you do a parachute jump, skydive tandem thing?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 No. I did always want to do it when I was younger, and then someone told me that because I鈥檇 dislocated my knee I wouldn鈥檛 be able to do it because it would just pop out. And then has I鈥檝e got older I鈥檝e developed a little bit of a fear of heights. I don鈥檛 know, when I used to walk I felt a lot higher and I was braver, and now I鈥檝e sat down I鈥檓 lower and I鈥檓 not brave anymore.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, there鈥檚 too far to go basically?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. I just no. Those things have gone, Ems.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 As close to the ground as possible. Is it about taking falls? If you fall you鈥檙e quite close to the ground.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I just don鈥檛 want to do it, Ems. I鈥檓 just not adventurous. You know me.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 But neither am I really.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I spend weekends at听 home watching movies, pottering in the garden with Dave. I鈥檓 happy that way. I enjoy it. I鈥檝e done the adventure but I鈥檝e not been鈥� I mean, when I was younger-younger at school I did white water rafting and abseiling. It鈥檚 all coming out now; I鈥檇 forgotten about that. Yeah, I did abseil and I could do that and I did enjoy that very much. White water rafting they wouldn鈥檛 let me sit on the side of the inflatable side, so I had to go in the middle on this rock hard plate, and I do remember because we went over a big old wave and I went flying forward and got my head wedged under a teacher鈥檚 bum. And the water was rising and I couldn鈥檛 get out, and I thought that鈥檚 how I鈥檓 going to die. I thought I was going to die under my teacher鈥檚 bum-bum. So, I guess that was the last adventurous thing that I鈥檝e ever done.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 What would be the most adventurous thing you would do?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檒l be honest, not much, Ems. I mean, I鈥檇 go for a long walk or something.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You know, there鈥檚 not really much, is there? But I must admit if I were asked to go on I鈥檓 a Celebrity it would be hard for me to say no because it must be a lot of fun.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And you get a lot of money, money.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Dosh, yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 [Singing] money, money, money.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Money! The dosh. And obviously it鈥檚 good for the old profile, wouldn鈥檛 it? All of those things you鈥檇 think that would be all right.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檇 have to bring a PA with you though.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, I鈥檇 like that. Can you imagine me and Libby?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Unless one of the celebrities was going to be your PA as well.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh yeah, that would be good as well. But could you imagine me and Lib in there?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Maybe Nigel Farage could be your PA.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah [laughs].

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I just don鈥檛 know ay of the other names. Oh, there is Sam Johnson, isn鈥檛 there?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 No, Thomson, Sam Thompson [laughter]. Sam Thompson is in there, Emma Tracey. And Sam is from Made in Chelsea I think. I know he鈥檚 got ADHD. And he鈥檚 just a lovely guy. It was the opening show last night and he was just hugging everyone. I don鈥檛 think Fred Sirieix liked the many hugs that Sam was giving him. But Sam鈥檚 very much like me, he鈥檚 very needy. In one of the interviews he went, 鈥淚 just want him to love me鈥� so my money鈥檚 on him to win.

JINGLE-听听听听听听听听听 Access All with Nikki Fox.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, a week is a long time in politics. That鈥檚 what they say, don鈥檛 they? And our next desk, Vicky, would probably agree, given everything that鈥檚 been happening in parliament recently. Now, Vicky Foxcroft is a Labour MP for Lewisham Deptford and the shadow minister for disabled people opposite Tom Pursglove, who we鈥檝e had on the podcast quite recently actually. And with a General Election set to take place at least by January 2025 all the political talk has started to hot up, so we thought that it鈥檚 the perfect time to find out what Labour is thinking when it comes to disability. So, we have Vicky in the studio with us now. Hello Vicky.

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 Hiya. Thanks for having us today.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, it鈥檚 lovely to have you on. Now, Vicky, I鈥檓 going to start with a biggie: who is Vicky Foxcroft? Tell us.

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, that鈥檚 quite complicated actually. It depends what parts to me you want to know. So, I鈥檓 obviously a politician. I grew up in the northwest. I spent most of my life when I was younger moving about a lot, living in temporary accommodation. I failed all of my GCSEs, but then I went to college, and that was kind of a gamechanger for me. And I didn鈥檛 study politics; my politics comes from kind of my heart. I went to university and I did drama and business studies. That was 1996. Somebody knocked on my door and asked me to vote for the Labour party, and that鈥檚 how I got more and more involved in politics.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 think you鈥檒l mind me saying this, because you鈥檝e been very open about it, but you also have arthritis, don鈥檛 you?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, rheumatoid arthritis.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Rheumatoid arthritis, yeah.

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 I was first diagnosed with it at the start of 2019, and there鈥檚 no way of treating it, you can just manage it. But that was quite a scary moment for it.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 You have to manage your own health, don鈥檛 you, and you have to take time off for appointments. Work is such a big thing for a lot of disabled people; those sorts of things must very much help in your brief?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, definitely. I obviously take medication. But actually when I started in the brief was at the start of COVID and of lockdown, and because of the medication that I take I actually had to shield myself. So, before that point I鈥檇 not particular felt disabled. But after that point when you鈥檙e not allowed to go out, you鈥檙e not allowed to have a walk like everybody else is, then I was like oh, I now understand.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Just give us a quick rundown of what your job entails?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 I have to hold the government to account. So, I challenge Tom Pursglove quite a lot in parliament. The other stuff that we鈥檝e got to do is formulate our policies for the next General Election.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 There鈥檚 lots of big ones, aren鈥檛 there: employment benefits, social care, I mean there鈥檚 so much. Maybe let鈥檚 start with work?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e never spoken to a disabled person who doesn鈥檛 want to work. But what disabled people do tell me is it鈥檚 the barriers that are in society that stop them being able to work. We have to tackle health and work together, making sure that people do have their care packages that they need, that they have access to healthcare in a timely fashion. But kind of along with that we鈥檝e got an Access to Work system that in theory, if you know about it and you get through the system, is cracking. But it鈥檚 not actually accessible to everybody. And so we need to make sure that we reform Access to Work, that we make sure that it鈥檚 accessible, that we make sure that it鈥檚 simplified, and actually that people get their awards in a timely fashion.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, what would you do to Access to Work?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 One of the things straightaway is to make sure that people got indicative awards early on so that they weren鈥檛 waiting for ages. But genuinely working with disabled people to be able to come up with what needs to happen in terms of the system. But it doesn鈥檛 just touch on Access to Work, because we also have a problem of reasonable adjustments in the workplace and where employers might decide they鈥檙e not going to make those reasonable adjustments. So, we need to make sure that we go and enforce that further.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 But how?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 This is the reason why I was saying that parts of this need to be working together with disabled people about what we know, we鈥檒l make sure that that happens. What are the barriers and where do we need to legislate on certain areas? So, that鈥檚 our approach. But we鈥檝e said that we鈥檒l make sure that we have mandatory disability pay gap reporting and mandatory disability employment reporting. Which is really important because until you know kind of what you鈥檝e got and you open up the transparency of all the different companies it鈥檚 hard to then kind of keep focusing on the changes.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Am I right in assuming you might be for targets maybe being transparent that companies need to hire x amount of disabled people?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 So, I鈥檓 conflicted on this. What I don鈥檛 want to see is a system where companies just look to tick a box and not actually do things that really change to make sure we employ more disabled people. But if they don鈥檛 do stuff then we do need to do more. If we look at the Disability Confidence Scheme you can achieve level one by doing nothing. So, I鈥檓 level two; I haven鈥檛 particularly changed very much to get to that stage. When you get level one by just attending an event and then do nothing about it how鈥檚 that fit for work? So, we鈥檝e also said we need to reform the Disability Confidence Scheme. And my thoughts are we almost need to start at level three.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, you鈥檙e actually saying you could do better yourself with employing disabled people if you say you鈥檙e at level two and we were to start at level three?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, no it鈥檚 the system and going through it actually. But they need somebody to look at the paperwork.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 But you would just reform the whole system?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, I think we need to. You can鈥檛 have a system that actually doesn鈥檛 focus on employing more disabled people and supporting people to be able to do that.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Tom Pursglove did mention that they were going to be reviewing Disability Confidence. We鈥檝e got the Autumn Statement that鈥檚 going to be delivered by Jeremy Hunt later on this week. Now, your parliamentary record shows that you鈥檝e always voted against reducing spending when it comes to welfare benefits. But you鈥檝e not been around for votes relating to raising benefits. So, where you do you stand on that, Vicky?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, that鈥檚 a really tough one, and one that could potentially get me in lots of trouble if I talked about spending money. We can鈥檛 spend money without growing the economy first. We know that we need to review and reform the benefits system. Disabled people view the DWP as something to be afraid of rather than actually somewhere that will help them and support them into work, but also will ensure they鈥檝e got the support when they need it. And anybody that鈥檚 gone through the assessment process will know what a harrowing assessment process it is.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 the government are trying to reduce, well they have reduced the amount of paperwork, haven鈥檛 they, to be fair?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. Well, we鈥檝e got to make sure that people are supported into work if they want to work. But it can鈥檛 be all with the stick; it has to be with the carrot and the proper support put in place. But also that you get the opportunities to get the right job as well, and not just pushed into any job because it suits them in terms of meeting targets. But also when people aren鈥檛 able to be working we also need to make sure that they鈥檙e supported.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Can we talk about education? Labour, one of your five missions is to break down barriers to opportunities and ensure there isn鈥檛 a class ceiling. So, they鈥檙e talking about richer versus poorer families. But what does all of that mean for children with special educational needs and disabilities?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 We need to make sure that EHCP is fixed so that when people have health needs that they need to be met in school that actually they get that, and that people aren鈥檛 having to go through tribunals. And to be honest, this does relate to class as well because quite often it鈥檚 the middle class parents that can fight for it.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 an Education Health and Care Plan is it you鈥檙e talking about, the EHCP?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 Yes.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Which is a plan that parents often need to get for their children to get them the right provision?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 Precisely. And we need to make sure that we reform that and that people get those plans in place in a much quicker fashion. We also need to have mainstream education that鈥檚 actually fully inclusive, making sure that the support is there, that the buildings are fit for purpose.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, not special schools then? Would you be more for mainstream?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 I think you have to have parental choice. But I think the one thing that is uniting in terms of this is the reason why a lot of people don鈥檛 want to send their children to mainstream education is because they don鈥檛 think it鈥檚 fit for their children. And actually we need to ensure that we have a mainstream education that is fit for their children. It will take years of time and investment and training.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 The money鈥檚 just not there though, is it?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 But that鈥檚 the reason why we鈥檝e got to grow the economy and get the money there.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 A lot of families will always say that my child needs specialist provision, and that might be because their disability is more complex. Would you accept that there will always be a need for a specialist provision?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 I think there would be until mainstream was that inclusive. It will take years to go and do this, but part of it is the ethos around making sure that we want to get there.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So many attempts have been made though to try and fix specialist education, but also the EHCP. What would you do differently?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檝e got a big review taking place at the moment about how you ensure that people do get those awards quickly. Because getting them in a timely fashion is a really big gamechanger in terms of future prospects and in terms of making sure that you can get a decent education.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And we know that in order to go to school and to hold down a job for all of these things for a lot of people it starts with the right support and care at home. Because if you can鈥檛 get out of bed you can鈥檛 got to work. What are Labour鈥檚 plans to fix this system? It鈥檚 huge and, again, hugely expensive.

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, I鈥檓 sure you鈥檝e seen that Wes Streeting commissioned a review in term of this. But as you said, it鈥檚 quite expensive and we can鈥檛 commit to unfunded spending stuff. But I think it does point to a direction of travel where we would want to get to. We also have very much a home-first approach, so making sure that people can stay in their homes, that they鈥檙e not going into, I mean let鈥檚 be honest, care homes aren鈥檛 really fit for purpose. But also towards delivering a national care service so that we would have national standards across the country that people could expect.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Because if you cannot 鈥� and disabled people will say this, every disabled person I鈥檝e met would have said this to me 鈥� if you cannot live independently and be the master of your own destiny you ain鈥檛 going to get anywhere in life, and there鈥檚 no point in having an aspiration or a dream because it鈥檚 just not going to happen for so many.

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, and that鈥檚 the reason why we are really committed to the home first approach.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 And cost of living huge, huge issue.

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I mean, what do you plan to do to improve that situation? We know that more disabled people live in poverty. We know it鈥檚 so difficult now for so many, for so many reasons as well.

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah absolutely. And that鈥檚 the reason why we have the stuff that we鈥檝e said in terms of supporting people into work, growing the economy, making sure that we deal with all of the economic problems that we will inherit at that stage. But also making sure that people can move on in work as well and be able to get better jobs throughout their career. And also making sure that work actually does pay properly.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Vicky just quickly, before we finish, can I ask are Labour going to be picking up that Mental Health Act that was dropped and wasn鈥檛 mentioned in the King鈥檚 Speech? 2018 the first official talk was about it, but the Act鈥檚 been there since 1983, so people have been looking for reforms for a long time. So, can you confirm then that Labour will be picking up these reforms and moving forwards with them?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 Yes, absolutely.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Vicky Foxcroft, it鈥檚 been lovely to meet you?

VICKY-听听听听听听听听听听 Thanks for inviting us.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Woah, we鈥檝e had a cracking couple of interviews today, haven鈥檛 we, Ems? Well, you can check out more of our interviews, because we鈥檝e got some more goodies, over 79 episodes. My goodness, 79 episodes. From shampoo commercial girl, Lucy Edwards 鈥� I love Lucy 鈥� to singer/songwriter Victoria Canal 鈥� that was probably one of my favourite interviews actually we鈥檝e done so far 鈥� we鈥檝e got TV presenter, Gail Porter, comedian Chris McCausland, and so much more.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Next week we鈥檙e heading to space with our favourite disabled astronaut, John McFall. And within the next few weeks we鈥檙e going to have Simon Minty off that there Gogglebox as well.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 I love watching Simon on Gogglebox. We both know him and we both adore him.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 He鈥檚 very much a friend of the pod. He hosted the pod, didn鈥檛 he, before it was Access All?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 He did for absolutely ages, and he was fantastic. And I can鈥檛 wait to get a chat with him.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, he鈥檚 so famous now, I love it. And don鈥檛 forget our podcasts are now out every Monday night, which is why Emma and I will never sleep again on a Sunday. We鈥檙e kicking off the week instead. So, until next time people, goodbye.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Goodbye.

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