麻豆约拍

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14th July 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All 鈥� episode 61

Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

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NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Guess what Emma, this is the best news ever and I was really excited to tell you. And I was going to put it on our WhatsApp group but I thought no, I鈥檒l save it. Are you ready?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I am.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I found a bicep.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 What?!

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I found an actual bicep.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, like a big muscle on your arm?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, it鈥檚 not like I鈥檝e told everyone that I鈥檝e got muscular dystrophy, but I have muscular dystrophy.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, there鈥檚 something going on with your muscles, Nikki, is there?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 There鈥檚 something going on, isn鈥檛 there, yeah. And I had a google of a picture of muscular dystrophy muscles, and when you look at the picture they鈥檙e very long and thing. They just look really strange.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You should never search the internet for鈥�

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I know, I know.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 鈥�medical stuff.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, this is the stuff I need to know, Ems. I need to know what my muscles look like. And it looks like when you get a pork loin, but a very thin one. No, more like a, hmm, what鈥檚 the kebab on a stick that鈥檚 very thin? They鈥檙e like long, thin things.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 A shish kebab?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, something like that, very long and thin. That鈥檚 what they look like. But actually I did so many press-ups that I actually saw my right bicep pop out.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Wow.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I was like, bye bye long thin muscle. Hello little ball.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 What do regular muscles look like?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e never seen them.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 What do non-dystrophy muscles look like?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, what you guys? Who knows?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, on those pictures?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I didn鈥檛 go that far. But I presume it鈥檚 not like that. I mean, it can鈥檛 be like that.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听 Theme music.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, this is Access All. I鈥檓 Nikki Fox and I鈥檓 in London.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 And I鈥檓 Emma Tracey and I鈥檓 in Edinburgh.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 We are the 麻豆约拍鈥檚 disability and mental health podcast, and we have got a full-on show today.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 We do. We鈥檙e going to be talking about the asylum seeker鈥檚 disability facility with no care staff, where one person has died.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 And we鈥檙e also going to talk to one of the people who took the government to court over the National Disability Strategy, which has just been declared lawful, again. It鈥檚 quite confusing, but we鈥檝e got Doug Paulley on to talk about it.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檙e going to talk to one disabled woman who鈥檚 one of many who鈥檚 jumped through many metaphorical hoops to get Taylor Swift tickets.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh, a Swiftie.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts from and stay tuned.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Imagine fleeing a war zone with any kind of disability and risking your life to reach the UK to apply for asylum, only to find yourself in accommodation which has been described by some as like an open prison. That鈥檚 the reality of more than 50 disabled asylum seekers who have been placed in a former care home in the district of Tendring in Essex, where they say their care and support needs are not being met. We鈥檝e also heard that one resident recently died at the facility.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 One charity which has been supporting residents is the Refugee Asylum Seeker and Migrant Action, or RAMA. This week after the government failed to respond to RAMA鈥檚 repeated concerns the charity has decided to apply for judicial review to challenge the government鈥檚 handling of this facility. We鈥檒l be speaking to Maria Wilby, who鈥檚 behind RAMA, shortly.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, the Access All team has been looking into this story alongside our colleagues at 麻豆约拍 Essex, and political reporter Simon Dedman who, we are very pleased to say, is here today to tell us more. You鈥檙e outside court, aren鈥檛 you Simon? That鈥檚 what the noise is in the background we can hear.

SIMON-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, that鈥檚 right. I鈥檝e just taken a break from another piece of legal action.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh Simon, think you so much. You鈥檝e got your head in probably lots of places, so we really appreciate this. We haven鈥檛 visited this site, you have. This is the facility in Tendring, which we鈥檙e not going to name. But can you tell us what has been going on there? What is it like?

SIMON-听听听听听听听听听听 It is a former care home, so on the face of it one would imagine it would have some of the support in place for these asylum seekers. There鈥檚 around 50 of them there with disabilities or serious mental health needs. But what the charities have said and what some of the asylum seekers that I鈥檝e spoken to have said is that they just aren鈥檛 getting the specialist medical support. For example, there鈥檚 one lady I spoke to called Zahar, that鈥檚 not her real name, I鈥檓 protecting her identity, who鈥檚 from the Sudan, in her 30s. She鈥檚 pretty much bed bound. She says that she鈥檚 supposed to try and use her legs but she can鈥檛 because there aren鈥檛 any support handles around the property. And when she does fall over the staff are not allowed to pick her up.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, these staff that you were talking about 鈥� security staff were they? 鈥� what鈥檚 going on with that then? How is that working?

SIMON-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, essentially the 麻豆约拍 Office provides accommodation. It says it doesn鈥檛 have any remit over care, and sort of points towards the local councils because they are supposed to provide care for people. Now, Essex County Council says it has been in there and it has done some care assessments. But it also says it hasn鈥檛 received any additional funding from the 麻豆约拍 Office to pay for this. And indeed the councils are saying that all the money that has gone to support these asylum seekers has gone to this private company called Clearsprings. Now, they provide support for asylum seekers from food, from housing. It does, to be totally honest with you, seem rather grey in terms of who should be supporting these disabled asylum seekers and making sure they鈥檝e got the care and medical needs that they need.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 When you visited the facility, Simon, you spoke to two residents, didn鈥檛 you, who we鈥檙e going to hear from in a minute? We鈥檙e calling one Afif and Hashim, not their real names, just protecting their identities. Now, they told you a bit about their lives and their experiences in Essex so far. And we鈥檙e going to hear now from Hashim who worked for NATO before fleeing Afghanistan.

HASHIM-听听听听听听听 I was working with the Afghan Air Force, and alongside NATO and the UK and the US Air Forces back over there. I got shot. It was a three bullets shot in my right leg.

SIMON-听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檙e staying in accommodation in the Tendring area. What help are you and other asylum seekers getting there?

HASHIM-听听听听听听听 We were expecting more treatment or more look after in here or more support, like medical support.

SIMON-听听听听听听听听听听 Are other people in the accommodation, staff who are trained to help people with disabilities?

HASHIM-听听听听听听听 To be honest I am not sure about that. But I think some of them as a human they know how to treat, but most of them no. I was expecting treatments as someone who helped you against international terrorists. I thought that we were like a small family, and I wanted to be part of Britain鈥檚 family.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Hashim鈥檚 voice there was voiced by an actor. And is he managing okay on a day-to-day basis or is it a bit of a struggle for him?

SIMON-听听听听听听听听听听 It is a struggle to go big distances. He can鈥檛 stand for too long on his leg. He also says that he should have some sort of support, like a stick at times, which he doesn鈥檛 have.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Simon, you also spoke to Afif, who has been at the facility waiting a decision on his asylum application for the past five months. Let鈥檚 hear from Afif.

AFIF-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I am a diabetic number two, and I have a heart problem, I鈥檝e had three or four heart attacks, and asthma. I have blood pressure. I鈥檓 afraid something happens. I think in my situation you need a doctor, a specialist to follow your case.

SIMON-听听听听听听听听听听 So, have you been able to access a doctor?

AFIF-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Three times I see the doctor, but not specialist.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Simon, you mentioned the company Clearsprings earlier on, and they鈥檙e the ones that have been contracted by the 麻豆约拍 Office to run the facility. Clearsprings told us it wouldn鈥檛 comment on the story. But what do we know about them as a company?

SIMON-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, they did make millions of pounds of profit according to their last set of accounts, it was in the region of 拢28 million. They have also been in the news for some of the facilities that they provide other asylum seekers, in particular the quality of the food, and also being able to access medical support. That鈥檚 certainly been an issue in the area that I cover in Essex and the East of England. But they haven鈥檛 commented.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you so much. It鈥檚 such an important story.

SIMON-听听听听听听听听听听 My pleasure.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I really appreciate you coming on.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 One person who cares a lot about the individuals at the centre is Maria Wilby, who runs RAMA and who regularly works with the people there. We caught up with Maria a bit earlier:

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檝e heard from Afif and Hashim and they say that they expected more from the facility. What have people you鈥檝e spoken to said when you visited and what have you seen?

MARIA-听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 very difficult for people when they arrive. They鈥檙e expecting to be moved there so that they will be cared for, and there is no care in place.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Is there no care in place at all?

MARIA-听听听听听听听听听 There鈥檚 nobody on site. So, the staff do their very best, but they are basically security staff and welfare staff as in they will be able to just check in with people, make sure that they are getting their meals and things. But they are not trained to provide care. So, for instance if somebody needs help to eat nobody can help them; if somebody falls nobody can help them back up. The only difference is that there is level access and level access showers. But just one thing that we鈥檝e really noticed in the last few days, because there is such a high proportion of the population now either using walking sticks, crutches or in wheelchairs, and there are a number of people who are fully paraplegic, and they are unable to open the doors. The fire doors are too heavy. We struggle to open them, and they can鈥檛 open them. So, if anybody is trying to get through from one part of the facility back to their room they have to wait for somebody to help them, and that鈥檚 not okay. It鈥檚 a fire risk, it鈥檚 a great risk to them. They don鈥檛 have any freedom around their own movement.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Maria, what needs to be done here?听

MARIA-听听听听听听听听听 Well, one of the things that we鈥檝e asked the 麻豆约拍 Office is for clarity around what the provision should be. So, there are issues around people needing medical equipment that somebody needs to pay for, so specialist bed mattresses, wheelchair cushions. And at the moment we鈥檝e been paying for all of these items out of the budget that we don鈥檛 have, and with the kind help of the general public who have been extremely generous. That shouldn鈥檛 be happening. There should be somebody who鈥檚 paying for these items. Clearly nobody who鈥檚 disabled should have to face that issue. So, we鈥檝e asked the 麻豆约拍 Office for clarity and we鈥檝e also asked Essex County Council to make sure that everybody there is assessed.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檙e going to apply for a judicial review, what is that and why have you decided to do that?

MARIA-听听听听听听听听听 So, we issued a letter before action to both the 麻豆约拍 Office and Essex County Council social services team asking them for support and help, and pointing out what we鈥檇 found in their contracts that seem to oblige them to do better. And they had ten days in which to respond and they haven鈥檛 responded. So, now we will have to proceed. Judicial review is one of the only avenues open to people through legal aid to try and address major changes that need happening. The specific points for the 麻豆约拍 Office breach of contract, they haven鈥檛 done what they鈥檙e supposed to do for people. They鈥檙e supposed to keep them safe while they make their asylum claim and these people are not safe. There鈥檚 already been one death, but it is very possible that there will be another because people are not being supported appropriately.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 That was Maria Wilby from RAMA.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, we spoke to the 麻豆约拍 Office who said:

QUOTE-听听听听听听听听听 We are committed to ensuring the safety and wellbeing of those on asylum support, including people with disabilities. However, we do not operate care homes, nor commission care, as it is not within our statutory remit. Asylum accommodation providers are contractually obliged to ensure accommodation is accessible for disabled people, and where concerns are raised we work with providers to ensure they are addressed.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 We also asked the 麻豆约拍 Office in what circumstances it gets involved with its contractors if concerns are raised about facilities not being up to standard. But the 麻豆约拍 Office wouldn鈥檛 be drawn on this.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 The facility falls under Essex County Council as it looks after the care and support system in the county. It told us it has been in dialogue with the 麻豆约拍 Office, Tendring district council and local voluntary organisations. It said:

QUOTE-听听听听听听听听听 Work that has taken place in partnership has included site visits in advance of their arrival to ensure that the former care home was fully accessible and appropriate for people with a range of care needs. And advice and guidance has been provided to residents, many of whom are fully independent.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 We are going to keep following this story, but thank you so much to Afif, Hashim, Maria and Simon. Thank you so much for coming on.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, I don鈥檛 think anyone can escape from the fact that Taylor Swift has got a tour that鈥檚 going on at the moment. It鈥檚 her Eras tour and it鈥檚 been all over the internet and trending on Twitter because she鈥檚 just released her UK tour dates. Everyone鈥檚 gone so excited! They鈥檝e been so popular that she鈥檚 actually had to add more. We鈥檙e excited, obviously. Em and I were saying we鈥檙e not the biggest Swiftie fans, are we Ems, but for disabled people trying to get tickets for her Wembley shows the process has been a reminder of just how difficult it can be getting tickets for gigs. [Song clip and on hold music] Woohoo, that鈥檚 just gone from Anti-Hero, I love that song, to what a lot of you are hearing now when you鈥檙e trying to book Taylor Swift tickets, and that is the sweet sound of hold music. And it鈥檚 what we heard when we tried to get through to someone on Wembley鈥檚 disability access line just a few days ago.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Now, I鈥檓 hoping to get tickets for myself and my niece, as I said, so access tickets I guess. And I鈥檇 really appreciate some advice and tips from someone who鈥檚 had some success.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, you are in luck, Emma Tracey, because we have music journalist with a banging fringe, Faith Martin, joining us now. Thank you so much for coming on, Faith.

FAITH-听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you for having me.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, after seven hours you finally managed to get yourself tickets to what Swifties are referring to as the Great War. That鈥檚 very dramatic. Why are people calling it the Great War, Faith?

FAITH-听听听听听听听听听听听 So, Taylor has a song called the Great War, so it kind of fits in with how hard it is to get Taylor tickets.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Fair dos. And what are the problems? Just explain, because first of all actually it would be good for you to explain how disabled people do go about getting tickets, because it does vary, doesn鈥檛 it?

FAITH-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. So, every kind of venue that you go to they鈥檙e going to have a slightly different process as to getting tickets if you鈥檙e disabled or need a wheelchair space. So, Wembley what you do is you email them before 鈥� this is really important 鈥� before you buy the tickets with your proof of disability. So, that could be something like a PIP letter or a doctor鈥檚 note or anything like that, but the full list is on their website. And then once you鈥檝e emailed that you then use the same email address when booking tickets to prove that you鈥檙e disabled and you can take the tickets. But the only way to book is to phone.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 That鈥檚 the only way, not online at all?

FAITH-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, so if you鈥檙e not looking for access tickets you can just go on Ticketmaster. But unfortunately for disabled you can鈥檛 do that.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, this is the thing as well because I remember, because I鈥檓 a huge Kate Bush fan, and when she did those concerts, I think it was in 2014, it was at the Hammersmith Apollo, I took a day off work, I was that serious, that hardcore, and the only option was phoning.

FAITH-听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 not as fair, and I would argue that it鈥檚 not as accessible as being able to both ring and go online. So, already people that aren鈥檛 disabled are like three steps ahead of you in getting tickets.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, Faith, with the Taylor Swift stuff you had to have an access code which you could get if you bought the album, or you might get if you鈥檇 registered for tickets. I haven鈥檛 got one yet. So, did you have to have one of those as a disabled person?

FAITH-听听听听听听听听听听听 No. So, as a disabled person you just ring without a code. You didn鈥檛 need to buy anything, you didn鈥檛 need to wait for an email, you didn鈥檛 need to register, which is where I personally think the problem has gone wrong. Because everybody鈥檚 shouting about what a big success this new registering scheme was for Taylor鈥檚 tour, when actually there were no implements put in place for disabled people to have something that made it a fair system.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, when you rang Wembley Stadium鈥檚 access line what happened?

FAITH-听听听听听听听听听听听 I got cut off immediately, nothing even rung. It just said, 鈥楾his service is busy, please try again later鈥� and it cuts you off. So, I rang 2,000 times on the first day and didn鈥檛 get through once.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Wow!

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Wow!

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 What happened on the second day?

FAITH-听听听听听听听听听听听 Second day exactly the same thing. Kept ringing for about an hour and a half, and then I got a call to say鈥�so I鈥檓 going to take this back a bit. Wembley have announced there is a callback form, so you can fill in your details听 and somebody will call you back if there are still tickets available. And I did that on the first day and I managed to get a callback the second day. However, again, incredibly hard to find. Usually when you go to gigs the standard process is you book your tickets either by ringing, if that鈥檚 the only option, or sometimes you can go on Ticketmaster these days. And then you would email your proof afterwards.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, that鈥檚 how I know it to be.

FAITH-听听听听听听听听听听听 So, Wembley have basically reversed that and done it the other way round. I believe that if you haven鈥檛 done it 鈥� I mean, I went to Harry Styles last year and I didn鈥檛 know this and I hadn鈥檛 done it 鈥� and they kicked me off the line and I had to send it and then ring back.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Right, so they鈥檙e quite strict about it?

FAITH-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. So, definitely send it in before you ring [laughs].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Wembley Stadium has a capacity of 90,000 seats, and 310 of those are for wheelchair users and their companions. There are also more spaces for guests with other access requirements. That is why it feels a bit like survival of the fittest, doesn鈥檛 it?

FAITH-听听听听听听听听听听听 So, when people say it鈥檚 the Great War it really is a battle to get through and get tickets.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 We spoke to Wembley about all this and they said that they think that phone calls are the best way to ensure that the specific accessibility needs of the ticket buyer are met.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 They also mentioned there was a callback form, which you鈥檝e mentioned, Faith, for those who couldn鈥檛 wait on the line.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Faith, do you feel like the disability community has come together over this in the last few days?

FAITH-听听听听听听听听听听听 Massively. I mean, I鈥檝e never been so popular on Twitter [laughs] when people are wanting information on how to get Taylor tickets. Everyone鈥檚 been helping each other out. Everyone鈥檚 been sharing alternative routes of how you might be able to get through to the access line. Everyone鈥檚 just been really, really lovely in trying to make sure that everybody gets a fair shot at going to this tour.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, I noticed that on your Twitter when I was looking before we started the interview. People are definitely coming to Faith. They want answers from Faith. Honestly, thank you so much for taking the time to come on and chat with us, Faith. Come back on again.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Bye.

FAITH-听听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you. Bye.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听听听 Access All with Nikki Fox.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, Taylor Swift might have a show, a very big one, but I reckon I should mention that we鈥檝e got our own show soon. I can鈥檛 believe it. We鈥檙e going to be at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe, and we鈥檙e going to be doing this show, our podcast, live in front of an audience. And we鈥檙e going to do that on 18th August at 6pm. Terrified, [laughs] terrified. But tickets are absolutely free, so if you want to catch us live 鈥� argh 鈥� you can get them right now by, well we鈥檝e had a debate about this, but the easiest way is just to go to your search engine and put in 麻豆约拍 Shows and Tours Access All, and they should be there as if by magic. Yes, we鈥檇 really love to see all of you face to face. Eh? I鈥檒l put some make-up on, we鈥檒l wear pretty dresses, it鈥檒l be lovely.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, our guest this week is Doug Paulley. Now, I know you as a phenomenally hard-working disability rights campaigner. You鈥檙e based in Leeds, aren鈥檛 you? And you were famously the fella that took the case against First Buses, weren鈥檛 you, Doug?

DOUG-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, I was the claimant in the case. It was about who has priority for wheelchair spaces, and it was the first case to get to the Supreme Court on disability discrimination in service provision. It wasn鈥檛 just me though; there was a whole load of people who did an awful lot of work to make that happen. I was just the figurehead really [laughs].

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 I know, but I do remember standing outside court, it was pretty cold and I was like, come on Doug, get out, get out.

DOUG-听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs]

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 And this was the argument over wheelchair spaces and wheelchairs versus prams really, in a nutshell. It鈥檚 been a bit of a tough show today so I thought why not take a moment to find out who is Doug Paulley. For those people that don鈥檛 know, who are you, Doug?

DOUG-听听听听听听听听听听听 Oh blimey, I don鈥檛 know. I鈥檓 some nerd living in a care home in North Yorkshire. I have ideas above my station maybe, I don鈥檛 know [laughs]. Railway lover, cat lover, I don鈥檛 know.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 How many cats have you got, Doug?

DOUG-听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檝e got somewhere between zero and two, depending on your definition. I look after two cats, one of which is RSPCA and the other one was left behind by a previous resident in the care home in which I live. So, I technically own neither but I kind of have two cats, or I belong to them anyway.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Aw.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You live in a care home, Doug. That鈥檚 interesting.

DOUG-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 We don鈥檛 talk to too many people who live in care homes. What kind of a care home and why do you live there? If you don鈥檛 mind me asking of course.

DOUG-听听听听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 mind at all. I ended up here not through choice, 22 years ago I鈥檝e lived here now. I ended up here because I really wanted out of hospital, and I couldn鈥檛 go back to my house as it was; it wasn鈥檛 suitable for me. And it was like any port in a storm to get out of this place really, to get out of the hospital. I鈥檝e been here ever since. And obviously there鈥檚 major problems with institutionalisation which I fight against, and the assumptions that are made about disabled people and our rights and lives. I think that there鈥檚 our own particular subset that applies to people in care homes. But I don鈥檛 know, I鈥檓 not sure the grass is always greener in self-employing people or having people come in at the set hours and stuff. 听

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, it鈥檚 difficult that, isn鈥檛 it?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 So, what is it like living in that care home for you then? Is the care automatic?

DOUG-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. Well, I鈥檝e got my own flat in the building which helps. There are not many care homes have that. And then the carers come in and do personal care as and when I need it. And I鈥檝e also got some direct payments to pay for my own carers when I go out and about.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 People when you think of care homes you think of going to do the dining hall for breakfast and sitting in the recreation room in the afternoon. That鈥檚 not your case; you鈥檙e in your own flat?

DOUG-听听听听听听听听听听听 That right. Not people sat round the borders of a room with a telly in the corner that nobody is really watching, no, happily not that so much.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Are you telling me that you don鈥檛 like sitting round in a group and at least play poker, have a whisky and smoke a cigar?

DOUG-听听听听听听听听听听听 [Laughs]

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Because that鈥檚 why I鈥檓 looking forward to going into a care home.

DOUG-听听听听听听听听听听听 I hope that you get the really amazing care home that does those things. I鈥檓 friends with some of the other residents and choose to go through and eat with them sometimes and have a laugh and such like, yeah. It鈥檚 good to have the option of socialising when you want to with people who you live with, but having somewhere I can retreat when I don鈥檛 want to.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Well, let鈥檚 get back to the news this week because you were part of the story, weren鈥檛 you? We鈥檝e been talking about the National Disability Strategy which, for people that don鈥檛 know, it was the government鈥檚 long-term plan, wasn鈥檛 it, to try and improve the lives of disabled people. Now, you are among a group of campaigners who, in 2022, successfully argued in court that the consultation had been unlawful, and so the strategy itself was deemed unlawful. And I remember this distinctly, Doug, because I adore you but I was cursing you at one point; I鈥檇 just done a sit-down interview with the then minister and we鈥檇 touched on all sorts of things to do with the strategy, and then the next day before it went out the strategy was deemed unlawful. And I was like, no [laughter] worst timing ever, ditch the interview. But just explain, because it is confusing, so just sort of walk us through. But keep it simple for us, Doug.

DOUG-听听听听听听听听听听听 When the consultation started to happen we had major concerns about it because it didn鈥檛 seem to be based around what disabled people鈥檚 concerns were. It didn鈥檛 seem to have disabled people鈥檚 involvement or disabled people鈥檚 organisations. And its structure and the way that it had to be completed was solely online, which automatically cuts out a lot of disabled people. It missed out the issues that are significant to whole swathes of disabled people like housing and income benefits, transport, it missed out so much stuff. They produced their National Disability Strategy based on this survey, or at least informed by this survey.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, so in your mind and the mind of other campaigners you were like how can you come up with a strategy if this is the consultation process, this is not what is needed right now, that鈥檚 what you were all thinking?

DOUG-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, plus we weren鈥檛 impressed with the content of the strategy either. It was very wishy-washy and didn鈥檛 seem to make any firm and accountable commitments. So, yeah, we challenged both. We put four arguments forward. I can鈥檛 remember what all of them were, but one of them was the survey is truly ridiculous, it鈥檚 not fit for purpose. And the judge agreed with us back last year and got the survey and the strategy that resulted to be ruled to be illegal.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. And obviously you weren鈥檛 successful this week, but you are going to appeal aren鈥檛 you, Doug?

DOUG-听听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檙e now going to regroup and consider whether and how to appeal to the Supreme Court. But it鈥檚 pretty clear that the lawyers and the claimants we all want to, so I think it鈥檚 going to happen. But it鈥檚 sad because it鈥檚 got increasingly far from the origin; it descends into legal niceties and arguments about whether or not it meets a technical definition of a consultation. And that鈥檚 what the government won on, by the way, they said it wasn鈥檛 a consultation and so it doesn鈥檛 have to fulfil the criteria to be fair. Which was interesting. So, it鈥檚 an information gathering exercise and not a consultation, and there鈥檚 a difference between the two. So, they won on kind of technical鈥�

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Technicalities. Ems, with all of this that has been going on, where are we up to now?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, in the absence of the Disability Strategy the government came up with an action plan, and that鈥檚 to tackle a few disability issues in the short term. And that鈥檚 things like assistive technology and other accessibility stuff. So, they鈥檒l be soon consulting on that, so that鈥檚 the action plan. If you want to get involved in responding to that consultation look for that coming out on the socials in the near future. Now the Disability Strategy as of this week is back with us again, and that鈥檚 to look at longer-term issues, which the minister for disabled people says will, 鈥楧rive joined up effective action across government which will truly transform disabled people鈥檚 lives for the better鈥�.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, Doug, some people say that you have stopped the government doing anything around this for the last two years, and even if it didn鈥檛 align with what you wanted wouldn鈥檛 it have been better if they鈥檇 been doing something? Like in terms of the strategy, like implementing it rather than pausing it?

DOUG-听听听听听听听听听听听 This is a legitimate criticism and concern. I mean, I think what鈥檚 happened is that government they could have redone the consultation, redone the strategy, said look it鈥檚 obviously a case that there are significant concerns about this so let鈥檚 look at what we can do to sort it out. Instead of spending so far a year and a half fighting court cases.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 You鈥檙e known for taking legal action under equality law. What drives you to keep doing that over and over again? Because it鈥檚 not an easy thing to do.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 hard work.

DOUG-听听听听听听听听听听听 There are lots of things that I鈥檓 really not good at, like I鈥檓 really grateful that other people for example got the Disability Discrimination Act and the Equality Act enacted, even though those aren鈥檛 the pieces of civil rights legislation that people wanted, they鈥檙e still the legislation that I use. And I seem to have this ability to some extent to at least attempt to engage with this. So, I don鈥檛 know. There鈥檚 something in me that doesn鈥檛 like it when rules and procedures aren鈥檛 followed, and that鈥檚 quite good at nerding stuff around it.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Doug, it鈥檚 been a pleasure. I also love meeting you, I always love working with you, so do come back on again.

DOUG-听听听听听听听听听听听 Thanks ever so much.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 That was the hard-working campaigner, Doug Paulley, everyone. I know a lot of disabled people will know Doug, but if you don鈥檛 there he is. Anyway, this is the end of the podcast. Thank you so much for being there. Please do subscribe and tell your pals. When I was on the ferry going to holiday loads of people stopped me about Access All. How cool is that?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Amazing!

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 I didn鈥檛 even know anybody else took the ferry to that part of the world, so that鈥檚 absolutely incredible.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Listen, if you want to get in touch with us please do. We don鈥檛 want to just talk to each other, we want to talk to you as well. you can email us accessall@bbc.co.uk; you can tweet us @bbcaccessall.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听听 Until next week everyone.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听听听 Goodbye.

[Trailer for Newscast]

PRESENTER-听 You know when you鈥檙e worried about something, but then you talk to your friend who knows more about the subject than you do, and straightaway you start to feel better? That鈥檚 what we try and do every day on Newscast.

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Now, they鈥檙e saying that that would be simple to do, it would give everyone certainty.

PRESENTER-听 We talk to people who are in the news:

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 You were chasing me round with a plate of cheese.

PRESENTER-听 We talk to people who know what鈥檚 going on in the news:

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 At least I didn鈥檛 get up and slap anybody.

PRESENTER-听 We talk to people who understand what the news means:

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I think that he鈥檚 decided he鈥檚 going to listen, and then he might just intervene.

PRESENTER-听 And we talk to the best 麻豆约拍 journalists, asking the most important questions:

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听听听 What鈥檚 wrong with chinos? You don鈥檛 want them, people to start wearing chinos?

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Don鈥檛 start me, Chris.

PRESENTER-听 That鈥檚 Newscast from 麻豆约拍 News, the podcast that knows a lot of people who know a lot about the news.

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And I was like, go on Kate, put some more welly into it!

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Listen to Newscast every day on 麻豆约拍 Sounds.

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 glad I asked that.

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 very glad that you asked that!