麻豆约拍

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17th February 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All- Newscast

Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

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NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Hi, it鈥檚 Nikki and Emma here.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Hello.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Now, just a quick note to say they let us loose on Newscast today 鈥� can you believe it? 鈥� so the podcast may sound a little bit different to usual. But fingers crossed it鈥檚 just as fun.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Enjoy the show.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Hello everyone, it鈥檚 Nikki Fox here. Now, you might have seen me on the news presenting disability stories, or covering consumer issues on Watchdog on the telly, or you might have even heard me hosting another 麻豆约拍 podcast called Access All, which I co-host with the beautiful Emma Tracey.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Yeah, that鈥檚 our weekly podcast about wellbeing, mental health and disabled people. But today we鈥檙e filling in for Adam, stepping into his very big shoes, and we鈥檝e been listening to all the lovely messages and reading all the lovely messages that you Newscasters have been sending us, getting to know our audience let鈥檚 say.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 [Singing] Getting to know you, getting to know all about you.

Anyway, now there鈥檚 one message that I thought we might be able to help with potentially, I don鈥檛 know, but it鈥檚 a good one for us. Disability related, Ems. Adam was talking about ordnance surveys, so they鈥檙e potentially going to update the symbols on their maps. Normally like the symbols that they have at the moment, churches, battlefields, it鈥檚 all very kind of 1806, they鈥檙e going to update them with caf茅s, bike shops and all that stuff. But our Newscaster, Anna, has been in touch and she says, 鈥業鈥檓 a wheelchair user, I鈥檇 like the new ordnance survey symbols to show if a boundary crossing is accessible or not. I can plan a route, but if there is a stile my wheelchair can鈥檛 do it鈥�.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Right okay, so there needs to be a little stile symbol so that you can take a different route?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. But more than that though, Ems, when I was reading this story I thought, well why not 鈥� I hate this expression, kill two birds with one stone, it鈥檚 awful isn鈥檛 it, yet I say it a lot 鈥� but why not just use that as a way of pointing out where things are accessible, like a giant ordnance map that has accessibility details on it?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Well, I think it would be useful for more than disabled people. It would be useful for people with buggies, it would be useful for older people. To be very honest with you, Nicola, maps mean very little鈥�

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Ooh, Nicola.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I know, when I call you Nicola you know I鈥檓 serious. Maps mean very little to me. The first time I ever used maps was when people started using them on their phone and I could get turn by turn directions; because I鈥檓 blind.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 I was just going to say, have you told the audience that you鈥檙e blind yet?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Yeah, getting to know the audience, they need to get to know me. I鈥檓 blind and I cannot read a map. And just to put it into context I do read braille, and there are braille maps of maybe a building or a little part of a street, but to put it into context one novel in print is about at least six braille volumes. And also I can鈥檛 really understand flat illustrations of things. So, I really, really, really would struggle with a big roll-out ordnance survey map.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Well, since I鈥檝e fallen in love with my boyfriend, who is a gardener, I鈥檓 now an outdoorsy type person.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Right, so we need those stile symbols?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, I could do with a few accessible stiles pointing out to me maybe some nice walks where I won鈥檛 get beached.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Beached?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, you know when you get stuck on some giant hill and you鈥檙e sort of鈥�

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 I think we鈥檙e a bit stuck on this subject to be honest. Let鈥檚 ramble on with this star-studded episode of Newscast.

MUSIC-听听听听听听听听 Theme music.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Hello, it鈥檚 Nikki in the studio.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And it鈥檚 Emma also in the studio.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Now, in a bit we鈥檙e going to be talking to someone who to me will always be Harry Moon from Frasier, my favourite ever sitcom. To you he鈥檚 probably Logan Roy from Succession, but I stopped watching that after episode one, I need to go back to it. It鈥檚 the actor Brian Cox, he鈥檚 going to be joining us later.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 He鈥檚 also an SNP member so we鈥檙e going to talk to him about politics too. And now, while we鈥檙e on the subject of politics, Adam goes on a day off and there might be some developments in one of his favourite subjects, the Northern Ireland Protocol.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 With us is the 麻豆约拍鈥檚 Ireland correspondent, Chris Page, who has been following the talks in Belfast and is joining us now. Hello Chris.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听 Hi there.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Okay, so we know it鈥檚 complex. Just give us a rundown of what the Northern Ireland Protocol is.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听 Truth be told, Nikki, it is confusing. Having been speaking about it myself for two years, I still find it a tad that way sometimes.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 I鈥檓 glad it鈥檚 not just me.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听 But I鈥檒l do my very best.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听 The Northern Ireland Protocol was an arrangement that was agreed between Boris Johnson鈥檚 government and the Union European in order to, as Boris Johnson put it, get Brexit done. So, you may well remember during the Brexit negotiations one of the big issues was how to avoid checkpoints on the land border with the Republic of Ireland. Northern Ireland, as part of the UK, was going to be outside the European Union, the Republic of Ireland was going to remain inside the European Union, so with the UK following one set of trading rules and the Republic of Ireland the other how did you avoid having to check goods whenever they were crossing that land border. And it was thought that if there were any new checkpoints on the land border that could be a threat to the peace process in Northern Ireland, given that during the long conflict we had here from the late 1960s to the late 1990s听 a lot of the violence was concentrated around the border area.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 So, the Northern Ireland Protocol is an arrangement whereby the trade border isn鈥檛 on the land border but it is between the rest of the UK and Northern Ireland. So, instead of goods being checked as they cross the land border they are now checked when they come from England, Scotland or Wales to ports in Northern Ireland. To Unionists that means it鈥檚 a border, they say, within their own country, within the United Kingdom, and therefore it鈥檚 unacceptable.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 That was beautifully explained.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 But I actually grew up less than half an hour from the border with Northern Ireland, I鈥檓 from Cavan, so just in the Republic of Ireland side. And I remember us being really, really nervous about being caught in that crossfire any time we needed to go across the border. It was a very big deal for people in the Republic of Ireland and people in Northern Ireland, it was a very big deal and a very big deal that it wouldn鈥檛 happen this time. So, Rishi Sunak鈥檚 been in Belfast having chats with Stormont leaders, parties leaders and the foreign secretary, James Cleverly has been having a conversation with the European Commission vice president. Do you know anything about the substance of these talks?

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, there鈥檚 not a deal yet. But that flurry of activity that you鈥檝e just talked about there is suggesting that a deal is at the very least moving closer. So, these negotiations about the protocol have been going on in some shape or form between the UK and the EU since 2021. From Unionists鈥� point of view they say, well fair enough, there鈥檚 no border on the land frontier between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, so why should there then be a border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK? They will feel they came worse off in the whole Brexit process, they鈥檒l say. Just the same way as a border was perhaps a much bigger deal for Irish Nationalists, those who ultimately want North Ireland to become part of the Republic of Ireland, well they look at it exactly the same way as regards the separation between Northern Ireland the Great Britain. So, the biggest Unionist party in the devolved assembly at Stormont, the Democratic Unionist Party, they have forbidden, if you like, a power sharing devolved government from being formed at Stormont for the best part of a year now. So, the idea is that there鈥檒l be a deal at some stage between the UK and the EU, and Rishi Sunak hopes that will pave the way for the DUP to lift its veto, say it鈥檚 happy with the border arrangements, and therefore it will return to a power sharing allowing Northern Ireland to have a government again.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 As with everything in Northern Ireland politics though, it鈥檚 certainly not quite that simple. The bottom line for the DUP on the basis of what they told Rishi Sunak today, they don鈥檛 want there to be any checks on goods coming here from the rest of the UK anymore. Also they say the way things are set up at the moment EU law, law that is made fundamentally by the European Union, takes priority in Northern Ireland as opposed to laws that are made either here in Belfast or by the parliament in London. So, they say that has to change. That will come down to the role that the EU鈥檚 highest court, the European Court of Justice, ultimately has.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 Potentially the most tricky sticking point in all of this, the vibes we鈥檙e getting from the leader of the DUP, Sir Jeffrey Donaldson after his meeting with Rishi Sunak, progress he said was being made; he struck a pretty positive tone there. But he also suggested that significant areas still remain where there was more work that has to be done. So, while there鈥檚 been speculation mounting that we could be heading for an announcement on a deal between the UK and the EU perhaps in the early part of next week, even if that does happen it doesn鈥檛 look like immediately Northern Ireland is going to get its government back. It doesn鈥檛 look like the DUP will be ready, at that stage anyway, to relent, soften its position and allow the Stormont executive, Northern Ireland鈥檚 devolved government, to come back.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 teatime now on Friday, roughly, where is everybody? Where is James Cleverly? Where is Rishi Sunak? What鈥檚 happening?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Where are they at?

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 What are they doing?

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听 Well, James Cleverly had lunch today in Brussels with Maro拧 艩ef膷ovi膷. Now, Mr 艩ef膷ovi膷 is the vice president of the European Commission. He and Mr Cleverly have been the two main people carrying out these negotiations between the UK and the EU. So, straight after they had lunch they both sent out tweets, and the tweets were kind of mirror images of themselves you could say, talking about hard work continues, intensive work continues. So, again the message from them is a deal is coming closer but it鈥檚 not quite done yet. Rishi Sunak over the weekend will be heading to Munich to the Security Conference happening there. He will meet, amongst other European leaders, the European Commission president, Ursula von der Leyen, so that could be an opportunity for him to talk with her about what he鈥檚 heard from the Northern Ireland parties today, perhaps finalise the language around any deal, if we are that close, or assess if a deal is possible at all. So, with that timeframe there鈥檚 still some expectation that perhaps we could be heading towards an announcement early next week.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 But all sides, and I have to say this has happened more and more over the course of today, all sides stressing that there is still a way to go. So, nobody quite counting their chickens at the moment. The aim perhaps is to get a deal done as soon as possible. But certainly the message the Prime Minister will have got from Unionists in Northern Ireland today is that it鈥檚 important to get the right deal, and the timing of it isn鈥檛 so important.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Thank you very much for explaining it to us and making it a little bit more understandable.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, beautifully explained there, Chris, thank you.

CHRIS-听听听听听听听听听 Okay. Goodbye. Have a good weekend.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 There鈥檚 been loads of NHS news this week, hasn鈥檛 there, Nikki?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, we know there are going to be more strikes. Nurses in England announced their plan to strike again in the biggest walkout of the pay dispute so far. And we also found out that half of A&E patients in the country have had to wait more than four hours to be seen this winter.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And I wanted to talk about your NHS story as well, Nikki, because that鈥檚 sort of related to that A&E story, isn鈥檛 it?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, we were looking at this story, but specifically on the impact of disabled people and their families.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Let鈥檚 speak about all of this a bit more with Baron Victor Adebowale. He鈥檚 the chair of the NHS Confederation, which is a membership group representing health leaders. Hi Victor.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Victor, it鈥檚 so lovely to have you in. Thank you so much.

VICTOR-听听听听听听 It鈥檚 great to be here.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Thanks Victor. Let鈥檚 start with the strikes, because obviously that is the issue that people are looking ahead to, that 48-hour strike from 1st March. And many are thinking how is the health system going to cope.

VICTOR-听听听听听听 Well, it will cope, because it does. My colleagues in the NHS they do cope. They coped during the pandemic; they鈥檒l cope during the strikes. But coping isn鈥檛 what they want to do. They want to be providing excellent healthcare to everybody. They鈥檙e working incredibly hard. So, we鈥檝e written to the Prime Minister and we said look, you need to settle the strike. I鈥檓 hoping it won鈥檛 happen because basically ministers need to sit down and sort out the wages, they need to sit down and talk about the things that need to be talked about in order to end the strike. And only they can do it, no one else can.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And do you think strikes are less disruptive now that the NHS has had some practice at contingency planning?

VICTOR-听听听听听听 I mean, to be honest that鈥檚 what worries me most. What we can鈥檛 have is a normative sort of experience of the NHS on strike, because that鈥檚 not normal. The fact of the matter is I鈥檝e yet to meet a nurse or paramedic or anyone else who wants to go on strike. They鈥檙e not striking for a laugh, and they鈥檙e certainly not striking because it鈥檚 easy for them. My members, and certainly frontline workers, I鈥檝e met people in tears. It鈥檚 a really, really tough decision, so they鈥檙e not making it lightly, that鈥檚 the first thing to say.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 And the second thing to say is we don鈥檛 want this to become a normative experience. It鈥檚 not good for frontline workers to be on strike, because you get a less than optimal service; that鈥檚 what a strike is all about. It鈥檚 not just inconvenient, it鈥檚 actually quite dangerous.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 We鈥檝e got a clip here actually, Victor, from Lord Bethell, former Conservative health minister, who criticised Pat Cullen, head of the RCN when he was on the Today programme this morning. So, we鈥檒l just have a quick listen.

[CLIP]

BETHELL-听听听 Of course these strikes are going to be dangerous to patients, of course they鈥檙e going to add significant risks. We鈥檙e going to see excess mortalities and undiagnosed disease. A huge hit on our population from the slowdown of the NHS that these strikes have caused. It is going to hit the NHS really hard. There鈥檚 an innovation paralysis. Important programmes around prevention, about capital investment are being slowed down because of this. We鈥檙e going to see a long tale in terms of undiagnosed disease and complications. Pat Cullen does need to face up to that responsibility. And these strikes do absolutely nothing to contribute to the recruitment of, as she puts it, young bright students.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Does he have a point?

VICTOR-听听听听听听 Well, I mean he has a point. But I鈥檓 across a bench peer, I鈥檓 not a member of a political party, I鈥檓 the Chairman of the NHS Confederation, I reflect the views of my members. I don鈥檛 work for the government. Lord Bethell is a member of a political party that supports the government鈥檚 position. Where I would agree with him is that strike action by definition is both inconvenient, and when it happens in the NHS is risky. Where I think we might have a debate is at the end of the day there has to be a negotiation. We have to sit round the table and sort this out. And that鈥檚 what I鈥檓 saying has to happen. And the only people that can do that, the people on strike can鈥檛 negotiate with themselves, that鈥檚 just logic, they have to negotiate with someone. And the people who are in charge who own the means of production, who have the purse strings, the chequebook, whatever you want to call it, are the government.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 But he鈥檚 saying strikes aren鈥檛 the answer, isn鈥檛 he really?

VICTOR-听听听听听听 I鈥檇 expect him to say little else. That鈥檚 the government鈥檚 position, and he鈥檚 a member of the government鈥檚 party, so that鈥檚 not surprising. I鈥檓 not arguing, I鈥檓 not in favour of strike action; I鈥檓 just pointing out that the strikes are happening.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Could you give me an insight into what it鈥檚 actually like. What do staff want and how difficult is it getting what they want?

VICTOR-听听听听听听 Well, it鈥檚 obviously very difficult, which is why they鈥檙e striking. But you look at the NHS and social care system you鈥檝e got 130,000 vacancies. You will see people who experience nurses under a great deal of pressure, looking after a huge number of patients, their complaints are when I鈥檝e spoken to them, I鈥檝e visited hospitals, they鈥檙e not able to take breaks. The NHS runs on discretionary effort. Nobody joins the NHS to get rich. A lot of the things that nurses do they do outside their job description, as it were. So, people are working way beyond their shifts. They鈥檙e not able to know when they鈥檙e going to go home; they鈥檙e working till the job gets done. And that goes for paramedics as well. So, there鈥檚 a lot of discretionary effort. Because there鈥檚 a staff shortage people are doing things way above and beyond what they have to do and what they should be doing, and they are exhausted.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 It seems to be such a difficult thing to actually make happen.

VICTOR-听听听听听听 Well, yes. I do feel for the jobs that ministers have to do. It鈥檚 not easy being the Health Secretary. There are lots of competing priorities and lots of issues around pay and around the economics of that. But the point is at the end of the day you have to negotiate. And a negotiation usually ends in both parties walking away feeling a bit miserable because they don鈥檛 get what you want. That鈥檚 what a negotiation is.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 not just the strikes that have been having an impact on disabled people. You鈥檝e been looking, Nikki, at some of the other NHS pressures that have been having an effect, haven鈥檛 you?

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah. I recently met, Victor, two people: one wonderful woman called Anjan who had cerebral palsy. And part of the condition that she has with her tummy meant she has a catheter. That gets blocked an awful lot. Her local services can鈥檛 sort that problem for her at home or locally or in the community; she has got to go to A&E. And she spent 45 hours one week, she鈥檚 back and forth and back and forth to sort her blocked catheter out. And it was the same with another family I spent a couple of days with, Elise and she鈥檚 got a son called Ivan, he鈥檚 got a very rare, very complex disability. And with that comes issues with his bowels and low muscle tone, and he gets terribly constipated.

[Clip]

ELISE-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 hard to get your head around the idea that a little boy, like a three year old boy is having to go through that amount of pain, those kinds of waits. But it鈥檚 happening and Ivan can鈥檛 be the only child that鈥檚 fallen through the cracks like that, he won鈥檛 be.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 For a good over a year now she鈥檚 been saying, 鈥楥an we sort this locally, can someone teach me?鈥� But because he鈥檚 disabled the thought is that he鈥檚 too complex, that it has to be done at A&E. And Anjan was told the same, because of her cerebral palsy, too complex, lack of services, has to be done at A&E. So, they鈥檙e feeling very much guilty because they don鈥檛 want to burden an overstretched emergency department right now with issues that are so simple.

VICTOR-听听听听听听 Well, look, that kind of thing is partly we have a problem with social care, we have a shortage of staff. The Confed鈥檚 view, the NHS, my colleagues and I at the Confed know that that could be relieved if we paid people who do social care more than they could actually get at the supermarket across the road. I have literally sat in social care services and watched people who used to work for the social care go and work for Lidl鈥檚 because they get paid more. And you can鈥檛 blame people for doing that because of inflation and costs and everything else. So, we do have a problem.

听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听听 There are some things that we could be doing and are happening in some places to help families like the one that you鈥檝e mentioned, like providing specialist housing, providing more community services so that people get the support they need. But the problem is it鈥檚 a bit patchy, and that鈥檚 a problem. We can鈥檛 have a postcode lottery for this stuff. It鈥檚 either happening everywhere or it鈥檚 painfully not happening when you need it most for some of the people who need it.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 When I was speaking to the people that I met 鈥� and it did move me, it always does when you do a story like that, the position that they鈥檙e in, and Elise had so much going on in her life and had to quit her job and all these things that make life a lot more difficult when you do have a disability yourself.

VICTOR-听听听听听听 Agreed.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Or you鈥檝e got a disabled child or whatever 鈥� but they all felt kind of aware that they were using a system that they shouldn鈥檛 really have to use. And they felt guilty about that.

VICTOR-听听听听听听 I can speak for myself, first of all reading those stories really got to me. And secondly, they shouldn鈥檛 feel guilty.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 No.

VICTOR-听听听听听听 Guilt is the last thing they should feel. They deserve to use these services. They are patients and they are citizens and they deserve to. They should not feel guilty. I can tell you now my colleagues in the NHS want them to use the services, they want to provide the care. Guilt is something it鈥檚 easy for me to say they shouldn鈥檛 feel, but I hope if they鈥檙e listening to this they take that to heart. They should not feel guilty. Please use the services. They are there for you. And my colleagues want you to use them. That鈥檚 what they do, that鈥檚 why they do their job, they feel passionately about it and so do I. So, use the services please.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Another thing, just very quickly, a doctor told me which I found quite interesting as well, hearing it from him I think, he was from the Royal College of Emergency Medicine, Dr Adrian Boyle.

VICTOR-听听听听听听 I know Adrian.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 He was saying about that a total redesign of hospitals, emergency settings, A&E whatever, the whole hospital potentially, needs to happen.

VICTOR-听听听听听听 Well, I think there鈥檚 an argument. It鈥檚 difficult to talk about reform when we鈥檙e in the middle of a鈥� But there are some things that are happening that are really powerful. So, for instance virtual wards: is it possible to manage people who have disabilities in the community in a way that means they don鈥檛 have to be in and out of A&E because they鈥檙e in constant contact with the hospital through they鈥檝e got cameras, they have monitors, they have all the things that you would have in a hospital but it鈥檚 in their own home. And when they鈥檙e in crisis or they need help or just worried they can talk to someone, someone is monitoring all their bodily functions, and it means that they can receive the care and support so they don鈥檛 need to be in hospital. And that鈥檚 linked to community services. So, more of those sorts of virtual wards have already been planned. They will get rolled out. My members are very keen on developing them. But again, we need to resolve the strike; we need to get people focused on those sorts of things.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 been a pleasure having you on, Victor.

VICTOR-听听听听听听 It鈥檚 been a pleasure being here. I鈥檓 really glad that we鈥檙e talking about this stuff.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 I thoroughly enjoyed that.

VICTOR-听听听听听听 And thank you for raising these issues. Keep raising them.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Thank you Victor.

VICTOR-听听听听听听 No problem.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 So, we knew we were presenting Newscast later in the week when Scotland鈥檚 first minister, Nicola Sturgeon announced her resignation. And we thought who better to talk about all of this with than Scottish actor Brian Cox.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Hi Brian.

BRIAN-听听听听听听听听 Hello.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Now, I know you rated Nicola Sturgeon a lot, didn鈥檛 you Brian, you were a fan. What is your reaction to her stepping down?

BRIAN-听听听听听听听听 Well, I think it鈥檚 tragic in one sense, but I think it鈥檚 completely understandable. She鈥檚 had a lot of unnecessary abuse quite frankly, more than most would suffer, particularly from the Conservative party for one thing, and also from people in Scotland. There鈥檚 always the debate about the validity of one person over another. And I think that it鈥檚 been very tough for her, and also the fact that it鈥檚 very hard to establish the definite need for Scottish independence, and that鈥檚 been really difficult.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Are you concerned about the future of the SNP now that she鈥檚 gone?

BRIAN-听听听听听听听听 No, because I think there鈥檚 a lot of great people there, a lot of potential people. There鈥檚 John Swinney, there鈥檚 Angus Robertson, there鈥檚 Ruth Fox, there鈥檚 a whole bunch of people there who are pretty formidable. So, I think whoever her successor is will be absolutely up to the mark. And I think that鈥檚 because the party is a very healthy party in that way.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 The leader will be announced on 27th March. You鈥檝e mentioned a couple of names there. John Swinney has ruled himself out. Who would you like to be the next in succession, Brian?

BRIAN-听听听听听听听听 The person I have a lot of respect for is Angus Robertson. He鈥檚 the Culture Secretary at the moment, but he has a scope which is quite interesting. He鈥檚 a very strong European and has lots of connections because his mother was German. So, there鈥檚 a very strong European connection for Angus. But also he has a total grasp of the situation, so I think he would make a great leader quite frankly.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 And do you think the European connection, like looking really far ahead, you could get Scotland through independence and then look at getting them back in the EU? Is that something long term?

BRIAN-听听听听听听听听 Yes, I think so. We voted 62%. I mean, this is the problem that Scotland has had is that we鈥檙e so like Blanche Dubois in A Street Car Named Desire, we鈥檙e always depending on the kindness of strangers; decisions are made on our behalf that we are not necessarily in charge of. And one of the great decisions was the fact that 62% said let鈥檚 stay in the European Community, and we were defeated by the rest of the United Kingdom.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Can you be confident though, Brian, that the Scottish people would vote for independence? Because the polling does suggest otherwise.

BRIAN-听听听听听听听听 I think there is the appetite for it. These things go in sloughs. It鈥檚 just that people have to be reminded about what kinds of constraints we鈥檝e been under consistently since really many, many years, well before Thatcher.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 You don鈥檛 live in Scotland, Brian, do you? What would make you move back?

BRIAN-听听听听听听听听 I spend a lot of my time in Scotland, a lot of time in Scotland. I spend more time than people know in Scotland. In fact I visit Scotland on a regular basis.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Would you move back full time?

BRIAN-听听听听听听听听 I eventually think I would like to move back to Scotland. But I鈥檓 only going to move back to Scotland when it鈥檚 independent.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Okay.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Aha, that鈥檚 when he鈥檚 going to move back to Scotland. I love Glasgow; Glasgow鈥檚 my favourite.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Well, I鈥檓 in Fife, and I know Dundee a little bit, which is where you grew up, isn鈥檛 it, and it鈥檚 a really lovely place.

BRIAN-听听听听听听听听 Yeah, great people.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Away from politics now, Brian, I am obsessed with 鈥�90s action movies. And Bruce Willis will always be one of the finest 鈥�90s action movie stars of his time. Now, you both acted in the film Red. I absolutely adore Red and Red 2. I don鈥檛 know if you鈥檝e seen it, Emma, but they鈥檙e amazing movies. I wondered if you鈥檇 seen the news about his recent diagnosis.

BRIAN-听听听听听听听听 Yeah.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 sad, isn鈥檛 it?

BRIAN-听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 very sad. He was very sweet too. We got on incredibly well he and I when we worked together on Red 1. It鈥檚 a very sad thing to hear about Bruce. It鈥檚 a form of temporal鈥�I can鈥檛 remember exactly what it is, but he has massive aphasia. Apparently he can鈥檛 speak anymore, which is terrible.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 frontotemporal dementia.

BRIAN-听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 really awful because he was funny, he was witty, he was a great performer. He did Die Hard.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 sad as well. It鈥檚 such a cruel disease, and for someone that was a communicator as well it鈥檚 very difficult. But that鈥檚 lovely to think you had such nice memories of acting together.

BRIAN-听听听听听听听听 He was lovely. He is lovely, he鈥檚 still there, he鈥檚 a lovely man.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Are you going to BAFTA this weekend, Brian?

BRIAN-听听听听听听听听 Yes, I鈥檓 actually presenting a BAFTA this weekend.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 What would you like to see win?

BRIAN-听听听听听听听听 I don鈥檛 know really. I watched them and they鈥檙e great, a great means for the community to come together. But they have to be treated with a sense of realising that this too will pass. Next week there鈥檒l be another bunch of people coming along, and that鈥檚 the way it is, and it鈥檚 great. I haven鈥檛 got any particular. Because I鈥檝e been working so hard I don鈥檛 get to see anything. In fact I鈥檓 a member of the Academy and they keep saying, 鈥榃hy aren鈥檛 you voting?鈥� And I keep saying, 鈥榃ell, I haven鈥檛 seen anything because I haven鈥檛 had time to see anything鈥�.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Yeah, I鈥檝e got small kids, Brian, I feel like that; I don鈥檛 get to see anything. I keep putting Elvis up to watch every Saturday night and then something happens and I end up going to bed. So, there you go. We need to just ask though, you鈥檝e been filming all week, can you tell us what鈥檚 coming up or have you got any little titbits of what鈥檚 coming in the next season of Succession?

BRIAN-听听听听听听听听 I can鈥檛 tell you a single thing because I鈥檓 sworn, I鈥檝e signed NDAs up to the neck of what we can talk about and what we can鈥檛 talk about. And I can鈥檛 actually talk about Succession.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Oh, thank you so much, Brian.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 It鈥檚 been such, such a pleasure.

BRIAN-听听听听听听听听 Bye bye.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 I really enjoyed that interview, Emma.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 He seems like a lovely man.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Yeah, he was. Now, normal service will resume on Newscast because Adam is back on Monday. But if you like me and Em tune into Access All, if you fancy it. It鈥檚 also on 麻豆约拍 Sounds.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Or wherever you get your podcasts from.

NIKKI-听听听听听听听听听听 Okay, thank you for listening.

EMMA-听听听听听听听听 Bye.

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听 Newscast from the 麻豆约拍.

ADAM-听听听听听听听听听 Thank you so much for making it to the end of Newscast. You clearly ooze stamina. Can I gently encourage you to subscribe to us on 麻豆约拍 Sounds? Tell everyone you know. And don鈥檛 forget, you can email us any time newscast@bbc.co.uk. Or, if you want, send us a WhatsApp on 0330 123 9480. Be assured the team listens to every single message. Bye.

[Trailer]

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听 鈥業 could feel our house shaking.鈥� 鈥楾hat was one of the scariest battles.鈥� 鈥業鈥檓 traumatised. I鈥檓 completely destroyed.鈥�

VICTORIA-听听 Hello, I鈥檓 Victoria Derbyshire, one of the hosts of Ukrainecast. We actually put out the first episode of Ukrainecast on the very first day of the war when Russia invaded Ukraine.

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听 This is a European country and it鈥檚 at war. It鈥檚 extraordinary.

VICTORIA-听听 So much has happened since then, and all the way through we鈥檝e been trying to tell people鈥檚 stories, what鈥檚 really happening on the ground in Ukraine.

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听 My elder daughter was lying on the ground. She had been dead.

VICTORIA-听听 And we鈥檒l be here for you, making sense of it all for as long as we need to be.

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听 鈥楶eople were being snatched and disappearing.鈥� 鈥楶eople took to the streets even after the Ukrainian forces had gone.鈥�

VICTORIA-听听 Ukrainecast is made by the same 麻豆约拍 News team that makes this podcast.

CLIP-听听听听听听听听听听听听 This is it, this is the war of the direst evil against all of humanity.

VICTORIA-听听 Listen to Ukrainecast on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. Just search for Ukrainecast on 麻豆约拍 Sounds.

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