Â鶹ԼÅÄ

18th November 2022

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 27

Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

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NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Never burn your candle down right to the wick.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I don’t light candles in my house.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, I don’t. I’m too disabled for candles. I’m way, way, way too disabled for candles.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I also burnt a hole in a braille menu once with a candle.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Did you?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. I was in a restaurant and the candle was in a little saucer, little, you know, fancy. They gave me a braille menu and I was opening the menu out and reading it out to Robin slowly, as I do, and hadn’t realised that the other side of the page had landed right on the candle until I smelled candle burning paper. And yeah, big hole in the menu.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ll be honest with you Emma, I’m not blind and the same thing has happened to me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve put my hand on so many candles in restaurants and things, so many. It’s a bit of a shock. So, that’s why we don’t light candles in our house except for the new battery type ones. Then I can’t see the light because it’s too small, so I forget to turn them off so they just run out of battery within like a week.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s Access All, our weekly disability and mental health podcast from the Â鶹ԼÅÄ. I’m Nikki Fox and I’m in London.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I’m Emma Tracey and I’m in Edinburgh.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And we are brought to you by the team who make the fabulous Newscast and Americast. And you can also hear us on 5 Live or wherever you are in the world, because we’re global.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Guess who’s back?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Foxy, you’re back.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, I’m back and I really missed you, Emma.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I missed you too, big time, I really, really did. And I need to know all about your holidays. What happened? How did you get on?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, it was really lovely. It was for my sister’s, it was her belated 40th birthday trip. The flight actually went all right, Ems. You know obviously we’ve spoken before, haven’t we, about a few flying nightmares. My sister and I both being disabled it can be quite sorry.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A lot of flying nightmares.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’re telling me. I don’t know whether this will help any other disabled people, but we reckon we’ve found the key to success with flying, okay.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Bear with me, I’m going to do this quickly. First of all my sister was on it like a bonnet beforehand, which as disabled people we all know we have to be anyway. But I mean to an extreme, she was emailing people back and forth, having long conversations with them. Two, we brought our own fold-up ramp. Now, that sounds a bit strange.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I heard. You told me that the last time and I all I was thinking of was all that luggage space it’s going to take up.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, we took it on the plane with us. I brought a little carrier bag for it, hung it on the back of my scooter. We got there, Rachel made sure we booked the first row, and so long as Rachel could avoid using that aisle chair she’s fine. So, she managed to wheel on the plane thanks to the ramp, get very tight it was, but get to the front row, and Bob’s your uncle, she got lifted on by my boyfriend.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They didn’t mind you using your own non-PAT tested – well it’s not electric – but non sort of airline/airport tested kit?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, I was worried about that, but they didn’t. Now, I don’t know whether this will work, I don’t know whether this is the key to success for many wheelchair users, I have no idea. But we basically just got it out and shoved it down before anyone had time to say anything. But New York was lovely. Pretty accessible as well, Ems.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Really, do you think?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I mean for me, being physically disabled, we walked for hours a day, and I only ever came up against one crossing that didn’t have a dropped kerb.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, that’s fantastic.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Which working in London it’s not always that easy.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And all the attractions that you visited, were they all accessible?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, they were. I mean, don’t get me wrong, the Fox family, we don’t go extreme, we’re not XXL explorers, you know. We take our time. We mooch. The Empire State Building perfect; Central Park was perfect; we went on a boat cruise, that was great, they had ramps. The people were lovely and helpful. On the way back I did have a guy that was insistent on telling me how little I could do when we were going through security. He was like, ‘Can you lift your arms up over your head?’ and I was like, ‘Not really, not without anyone else’. And he was like, ‘Can you go through that tunnel?’ and I went, ‘Yeah, yeah, that’s fine’. It was basically the scanner. I went, ‘Yeah, yeah, that’s fine’. And he went, ‘What, so you can walk it?’ and I went, ‘Oh no, no, sorry, no, no I can’t walk it’. And he was like, ‘She cannot walk through the scanner, she can’t lift her arms up’.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Shout it across the place.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý ‘Oh fine, okay. Well, you’re going to have to wait a while.’

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Did you have to go there super early then? Because when I had no kids, whatever, I just used to turn up at the last possible second and just hope that assistants would take pity on me.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, we’re like seven hours before we have to be anywhere.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What I found in New York was with my visually impaired husband was because it’s all laid out in blocks we found it extremely easy to find what we needed to find. Honestly, it was fantastic, it was really, really good. That’s a big problem for us when we’re in an unfamiliar city, we have to use all our technology and stuff to get around. But that was a very accessible thing about New York.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Go NYC. I was very jealous though when I was away because you got the interview of interviews, Ellie Simmonds. And you know how much of a Strictly fan I am, Ems.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I can’t apologise enough, but it was absolutely brilliant.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How could you do it to me?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, she was going on her holidays the next day. She wasn’t going to be around this week. What was a girl to do?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s a girl…I know. Did you tell her all about me?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I did, I did. Have you not interviewed her before?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, I just assumed that the Â鶹ԼÅÄ’s disability correspondent would have already had chats with her.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I met her in a bathroom at the Chelsea Flower Show, but I have not interviewed her. Everything about Ellie on Strictly was brilliant. She looked beautiful, she was sexy, she danced really well, and her personality came across. She came across so well.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, and she’s so humble and gentle. She was really giving in the interview as well. I don’t know if it was left in, but she was telling us all about getting her bathroom done up and getting the light switches moved down, and we got to talk a little bit about her boyfriend. You can go back and listen to that episode.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I can’t, it’s too hard, it’s too painful.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, Nikki is in it, so don’t worry, it’s not just me through the whole episode. But last week’s episode was when we had Ellie on. I’m sorry you weren’t there, but I’m not sorry I interviewed her.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You know I got asked to go on the Friday panel, the It Takes Two Friday panel this week, and I can’t because I’m filming elsewhere too far away.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh no. but do you know what, there was a blind guy, Amar Latif, on It Takes Two last week.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I love Amar.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý He says he watches it with audio description, Strictly.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you do that?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I didn’t even know, as a disability focused journalist, I’ve been in the Â鶹ԼÅÄ 17 years, I didn’t know that Strictly had audio description on iPlayer.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How do you even begin to describe dancing? It must be so complicated: left hand, right hand, right leg, da, da, da.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No! it’s a much more overarching description than that. The great thing is they say, they appear to be a little bit out of time with each other, and then they’re back.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Cha-chi.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They manage to bring it back.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’ve got a clip here, Emma. I’m dying to hear this.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Dancing their couples’ choice, Hamza Yassin and Jowita Przystal. [Applause]

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, it’s so good this one.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Standing on the stage with their backs turned, Hamza and Jowita start jiggling their shoulders, before heading down onto the dance floor and geeing the crowd up, then coming together in the middle of the floor.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you know what I mean?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So exciting.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They step from side to side, swinging their arms like massive bird swings, then doing slow body rolls before clapping their hands with their knees bent and their feet driving into the floor.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh my goodness.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Driving into the floor.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She’s good.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m so excited even listening again.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Drive it, Hamza.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They tap their ankles before rolling their bodies in towards one another…

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know this dance.

CÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý …while waving their arms.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She’s good.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, is it the same as watching it? Is it nearly as good as actually seeing the dance?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, it’s not bad. It’s better than I thought, Emma.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You get the vibe. They don’t tend to put a lot of tone it, but she puts on a slightly more excited voice at parts.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She does.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But even in a free moment, in a quiet moment on Strictly, which there aren’t many, she’ll say, ‘Shirley is wearing a glitzy top and bottoms which actually looks like a pair of pyjamas’. But this is a new world now. But I’ll tell you what, I can’t have audio description in real life on a Saturday night because it needs an extra track and it’s too complicated to arrange. And anyway, they have to see the dances beforehand to be able to talk about them.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, so it’s an audio description that’s put on after the show has gone out then?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, it’s not a live audio description.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No. I think it was definitely not there when I looked on Tuesday morning, and it was definitely there when I looked on Wednesday afternoon, because I was like, refresh, refresh, refresh all week. So, I think 86 minutes of it on Catch Up, I’m not sure if I’ll do that straight through. Because a big part of Strictly is watching it with everyone else on a Saturday night, isn’t it?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But maybe, and definitely I’ll go and watch all of Hamza’s dances now. In a few weeks I’ll tell you if it’s got a bit samey, how about that?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, thanks, Ems. Now, we’ve had lots of amazing messages. We’re loving getting these.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, I love them.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much for sending them. We’ve had loads over the past couple of weeks. Becky WhatsApp’d us to say, ‘I’ve always been blind, but since the start of 2021 I’ve also been in a wheelchair. I feel like some strange Nikki and Emma combo’. We’re mixed Em. Honestly, I love that so much. Thank you Becky. I mean, a Nikki and Emma combo, is that quite terrifying Emma?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I wouldn’t mind having a bit of Nikki in me.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh no, don’t get me wrong, I’d love a bit of you. No, don’t get me wrong here, people, I’d love. But I’d quite like just to be you.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think the combination of you and me…

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, that’s nice.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s true though. Becky goes on to say, ‘The real prompting for finally contacting you is the lovely woman, Peta – oh Peta, do you remember, the one with the silver poncho?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Becky says, ‘I just wanted to say I think it’s amazing, and where can I get one?’ So, she’s talking about the silver poncho. So, there you go Peta, don’t turn that poncho round on the black side, keep it on the silver side; other people want it as well.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And do you know Peta did email back.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, did she?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And she said thank you and she said that what you said to her was massively helpful and really helped her to go out and to wear the poncho right side out. So, go you, Nikki Fox.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s really lovely. Thank you Becky for getting in contact.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, thank you.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Keep sending your messages because we’re loving them, and we are getting some really nice ones and it is really lovely.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You can find out how to contact us at the end of the show.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Access All.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, the long awaited Autumn statement from Chancellor Jeremy Hunt happened today. We’re recording this episode of the podcast on a Thursday, shortly after the announcement. Now, disabled people were hit hard the last time the economy dipped due to the world financial crisis over a decade ago, so it’s no surprise that this time round, in similar circumstances, many disabled people and campaigners were expecting the worst and getting nervous. I know for a good couple of weeks now I’ve seen on social media people have been worried about the idea of means testing PIP and DLA, Personal Independence Payments or Disability Living Allowance, which sent a lot of fear amongst disabled people who need that support for the extra costs of being disabled. But that’s not happened, has it, Em?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s not as bad as some people feared. Mr Hunt has announced that means tested benefits like Universal Credit will rise in line with September’s inflation rate of 10.1% from next April. Some disability benefits, including Personal Independence Payments, are by law supposed to go up with inflation anyway, so that’s not going to change. And those on disability benefits are set to receive an additional £150 to help with the cost of living. And those on means tested benefits will get an additional £900. Help for energy bills will be extended but will be less generous. So, millions of households will see their energy bills rise by hundreds of pounds, which of course impacts a lot of disabled households.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, let’s unpick this a bit. We’re joined by Fazilet Hadi from Disability Rights UK. Thank you so much for joining us Fazilet. What is your response to the statement?

FAZILET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s not all bad, but I don’t think disabled people will be dancing in the streets anytime soon. So, in terms of actual money in disabled people’s pockets, I’m really pleased for those on Universal Credit that at last a government has confirmed it’s going up by inflation next April. But we must remember people are living with a 3.1% increase this year, and we’re now at 11.1%Ìý in November, so it’s already not keeping pace with inflation. And I just worry that it’ll kind of be vastly overshadowed by food and energy and inflation.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý For people that don’t understand certain benefits for different people, a lot of disabled people, people with mental health, will be in receipt of Universal Credit, won’t they?

FAZILET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Anyone who has no job at all or is in a very low-paid job will get Universal Credit. And we know that 3 million disabled people are living in poverty, and 3 million more households on Universal Credit have a disabled person in them.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because that £150 payment that’s to help with the cost of living, that’s a one-off payment, isn’t it, another £150?

FAZILET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, that’s a one-off for people on disability benefits. So, when you’re on a disability benefit like PIP or Attendance Allowance or DLA it’s what’s called non-means tested. So, you could theoretically be a disabled millionaire. There are not many of them around, but you could be. And so some people will also be on Universal Credit; but others who aren’t will at least get that £150, which with energy costs going on that £150 doesn’t touch the sides.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. so, those who are on means tested benefits will also get the extra £900. And you were touching there about help for energy bills, which I know is such a huge problem; we’ve covered this so much on the podcast. What do we know about this targeted energy support?

FAZILET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The £2,500 cap, which isn’t really a cap, it’s just what your average bills should be, will move to 3,000. Which again, if you remember this time last year that average bill was £1,250, so this is a huge difference in what people are having to pay. So, the government would say they’re kind of cushioning that cost because it’s spiralling. But actually for people again, for most of us we’re just seeing money go out the door really. And that’s why people are turning off their heating, turning off oxygen ventilators, turning off all sorts of things because they just can’t cope.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý For people that don’t understand necessarily about the extra costs that disabled people, people with mental health issues face, it’s not just the charging it. We know that it’s more expensive to be disabled. We know that stuff breaks down. We know that people need certain diets. All of those kinds of things. But just tell me for people that don’t understand.

FAZILET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Scope did some work where they showed that if you were disabled you needed to spend £583 more a month. And that could be on such a range of things because we’re so different, our impairments and health conditions. So, it could be on transport, because you need to get taxis. It could be on higher energy costs because you need to keep your house heated or you have health-related equipment. It could mean that you need a bit of support in the home, cleaner or someone to actually help you do some of the tasks you can’t do. And it could be that you need to eat more expensive foods because you can’t either prepare them, so you need ready meals. As you were saying, Nikki, you need special ingredients. Or you have to go the corner shop because the supermarket is not accessible to you because it’s stuck out in the middle of a motorway somewhere. So, there’s a whole range of costs.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, there’s other work that’s been done that shows that one in five disabled people actually have additional costs of over £1,000. And there will be some of us that need a lot more than just those things I’ve mentioned.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s £1,000 a month, isn’t it?

FAZILET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. This research was all done before runaway inflation, runaway energy costs, so now these figures must be quite dated actually if we did the same exercise again. So, I think the gap between the incomes of disabled people and where they need to be is huge. And the government is sort of putting a little sticking plaster, going in the right direction, but it’s by no means doing enough to make disabled people feel secure and safe in their own homes, and to live a decent life.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The other thing we might have expected is the government to cut back on public services. And of course we’d be particularly worried about cutting back on health, social care, education. They haven’t cut back, and they are again putting a bit more money into social care, into education and into health. But again, because of energy costs going up and inflation and because of staff salaries going up, there’s a real question mark about how much support that will lead to disabled people or disabled children actually getting.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, again, he hasn’t stuck the knife in to public services, but he probably hasn’t done enough for us to think wow, that means my social care next year will be safer or I will get decent support in my school. And I think that’s the real problem here: he’s not sticking the knife in, but neither is he making enough of a difference.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, we’ve got a response here, Fazilet, from the Shadow Chancellor, Rachel Reeves. Now, this is a response to the Autumn statement. Rachel says, ‘What does the Chancellor have to offer today: more of the same. With working people paying the price for his failure. The Chancellor should have come today to ask for forgiveness. At the very least he could have offered an apology. This isn’t a game; this is people’s lives’. And you’ve got some charity responses, haven’t you, Em?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, yes, the charities have started responding. And United Response, which looks after people with learning disabilities and autism have said, ‘While we fully support benefits being uprated’ they kind of say it’s not going to work unless it’s coupled with energy support packages. So, just like Fazilet was saying, if you can’t pay for your energy and the sky-high cost of energy, the benefits rising is a little bit but not enough, I think is what they’re saying.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us today and being our wonderful expert on this subject that we’ve just come to straightaway. It’s really good to have you break that down, so thank you so much.

FAZILET-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you both.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Access All with Nikki Fox.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You may have heard about a new podcast, it’s called Disaster Trolls on Â鶹ԼÅÄ Sounds. It’s made by the Â鶹ԼÅÄ’s disinformation and social media correspondent, and Americast presenter, Marianna Spring. It investigates disaster trolling which is when conspiracy theorists question whether tragedies ever happened.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý One of those featured on the podcast is Martin Hibbert from Lancashire. Martin and his daughter, Eve, were trolled after they were injured in the Manchester Arena bombing following an Ariana Grande concert in 2017.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý 22 people died and hundreds were injured in the bombing. Martin was paralysed from the waist down, and Eve, who was 14 at the time, was left with significant brain injuries. Before the podcast was released Martin joined myself and Emma for a chat about his experience.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý He’s amazingly open about everything. But just a heads-up, it is a difficult listen with some graphic descriptions.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Honestly, thank you so much for agreeing to speak so openly about this. I’d never heard of disaster trolling in my life until now.

MARTIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I hadn’t, to be fair.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’re going to go into this a bit more, but I’m just going to rewind slightly now, Martin, just for you, if it’s not too overwhelming, to tell us a little bit about what happened first off on the night of the terror attack.

MARTIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It was daddy and daughter time. We love music. So, we got there, had a great concert, lots of dodgy dad dancing, and we were just free. And I love how music does that. And then the time came to leave and then at 10:31 we now know Salman Abedi detonated his suicide bomb, and we were between 5m and 7m away. Everybody around us died instantly. But for some reason me and Eve are still here.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because you were so injured, weren’t you, Martin?

MARTIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. I mean, thankfully where we were stood I shielded Eve, as any dad should, so I took 22 pieces of shrapnel. The two most serious, one obviously that hit me in the centre of the back, totally severed my spinal cord. So, I’m now left with a P10 complete spinal cord injury. Which for the listeners in layman’s terms means paralysed from the belly button down. The one that they were actually more concerned about was one that hit me in the side of the neck. Now, it severed two of my main arteries, so that’s kind of where all the blood loss was. But what baffled the experts is a lot of people it went straight through, they died instantly. With mine – this is the guardian angel – it went through my neck, severed two arteries, and I swallowed it. So, the bolt ended up in my stomach. These bolts were travelling at over 100 miles an hour. They were decapitating. They were leaving craters in concrete. So, I had 22 golf ball size holes all over my body. What I remember at the time, because I was awake, Eve, one bolt got her unfortunately and hit her in the temple and went straight through. So, I had to watch Eve dying in front of my eyes; which for a father it’s awful, it’s the worst thing. It keeps me awake at night when my PTSD is kicking in, it’s the picture that I see. I just remember seeing her and just my brain saying, right Martin, you’re not going to make it, you’ve got one job to do now and it’s to make sure Eve gets out. I just knew if I closed my eyes I’d be dead and Eve would be dead. So, I literally just fought to stay alive. And my last vision is seeing Eve on a stretcher. And then I wake up in intensive care a couple of weeks later.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And you were in hospital for six months, is that right?

MARTIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Six months, yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And Eve for ten?

MARTIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They weren’t expecting her to survive. The coroner was ringing her ward every day; they thought she was going to be number 23. As we know at the minute we think she’s the only person to survive that injury. She’s had a medical paper written on her, just because of how they looked after her. She was in a hospital for a long time and the prognosis wasn’t great. I remember the first time that I was well enough to go over one of the psychiatrists coming into my bed and saying, ‘Martin, I need to prepare you for what you’re going to see, because it’s not going to be your daughter, if she does wake up, if she does survive she probably won’t see, she won’t hear, she won’t speak, she won’t have any memory, she won’t be able to read and write, she won’t be able to move; she’ll pretty much be in a vegetative state’. Everyone is inspired by my story, but when Eve’s ready to tell the world her story it’ll put me out of business for sure.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How is she now?

MARTIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý If I tell you with everything that I’ve told you now, that she’s started college last week.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wow.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh fab.

MARTIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý In true Hibbert style.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Flipping heck, we need to be Hibberts.

MARTIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She’s going to need care and support for the rest of her life. But if I told you that she can see, she can hear, she can speak, she can read and write, she’s got a bit of memory. Thankfully she doesn’t remember a lot. The last thing she remembers is holding daddy’s hand, so I’m happy with that.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You’ve decided to use this experience, haven’t you, to spread awareness about spinal injuries.

MARTIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But you’re putting yourself out there. I know you’ve done some amazing challenges. You’ve also, as we’ve mentioned before, received online hate.

MARTIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m looking at Emma and I’m just like, what.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It doesn’t make any sense.

MARTIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I was on This Morning with Philip and Holly and somebody got in touch and said, ‘I didn’t want to say anything, but have you seen what this guy’s saying, he’s literally got everything that you’ve said on This Morning and he’s just ripping it to bits. He’s got like specialists on saying that you’re not spinal cord injured, that you weren’t at the arena, that you can walk’. It literally was just rubbishing it. So, I watched it and honestly it was like a Tom and Jerry jaw drop moment. And Greater Manchester Police said, ‘Look, we don’t want you to be alarmed, but we’re going to have to go and see Eve and her mum’. I was like, ‘Why?’ They said, ‘We don’t want to say anything yet; we want to speak to Eve’s mum first’. So, anyway Sarah rang me the day after and she said, ‘Where are you?’ I was driving with my friend, she said, ‘You probably need to pull over. You know that Richard Hall?’ and I was like, ‘Yeah’. She said, ‘The police have come round and said that on one of his latest YouTube videos he’s set up cameras outside our house to try and catch Eve out, because he believes that she can walk’. Once you’re targeted and you see the things online and on YouTube, and this guy’s written a book now and he has a following, he does tours, people are making money and then calling me a liar and saying that I’m not disabled, I haven’t got a spinal cord injury, that Eve’s not disabled. How anyone can say it didn’t happen. I was in hospital for six months; Eve was in hospital for ten months. How dare he say that we didn’t go through that pain and suffering?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Which is why obviously the Â鶹ԼÅÄ’s disinformation and social media correspondent, Marianna Spring, is launching this podcast series that we’re talking about that you’re going to be featuring in, Disaster Trolls it’s called.

MARTIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’d love to sit down with Richard. And I’ve got loads of videos and photos of both me and Eve in really bad ways. So, for him to say that we’re lying, he’s not just saying that I’m lying, he’s saying that my neurosurgeon that operated on me for 14 hours and saved my life, that he doesn’t exist; the doctors and nurses in intensive care that looked after me; everyone that looked after Eve at Manchester Children’s Hospital, I mean she had ten people looking after her day and night. I don’t really care about what he says about me, it goes over my head, but he crossed a line with Eve. I feel sad that his life is so sad that he has to invent things like this to get a following. The life that we’re now living, I’ve climbed Kilimanjaro, I’m doing things that I shouldn’t be doing, but when I see Eve having bad days, when she’s having PTSD attacks or a depression, it’s how dare he, you know what I mean. If he wants to write about this stuff come and speak to me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hopefully the new disaster trolling podcast and Panorama will draw some attention to this.

MARTIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I hope so.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And give people a different way of thinking about it and let them know that it’s happening.

MARTIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. I’m trying to get people to embrace disability, celebrate disability. I climbed Kilimanjaro three months ago. Look at what we can do when we get the right help and support. You’ll know.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, that’s it.

MARTIN-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And that’s what I’m fighting for.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The man at the centre of so much of this, and that Martin mentioned, is Richard D. Hall. Now, Hall refused to do an interview with the Â鶹ԼÅÄ, so Marianna Spring went to see him at his merchandise store in Wales. Hall again didn’t want to engage, but he did stand by his claims about Manchester.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Remember Martin mentioned that Hall claimed to have used a camera to spy on his daughter, Eve. In a new video Hall says he did not put a camera outside the home of Eve Hibbert; but admitted to filming her from his vehicle which was parked in a public place. In a comment on his home page Hall said, ‘In response to recent media coverage, if any person is upset by what they have seen Richard D. Hall apologises for any upset caused’. He says he has made, ‘Polite door to door enquiries in order to gather evidence, which is a perfectly legitimate activity when doing research’. And that his appeal for information from the public does not make him, ‘Responsible for hateful messages sent by people’. But he has held firm to his opinion that, ‘There has been no satisfactory evidence presented to the public which proves that the Manchester Arena incident was not staged’.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý If you want to find out more you can listen to Disaster Trolls on Â鶹ԼÅÄ Sounds. And there’s also an episode of Panorama which Martin features in, which is available on Â鶹ԼÅÄ iPlayer.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much for listening today. Now, do you remember back in the 1990s when Blue Peter showed us all how to make a Tracey Island one Christmas because apparently all the Tracey Islands in the shops had run out? Well, next week we’ll be telling you all how to make your own assistance dog – for very similar reasons apparently, Emma.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right okay. Making a dog.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Make your own assistance dog. You’re going to start on Buddy, aren’t you? You’re going to be like, oh do you want Buddy to be your assistance dog.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I will start on Buddy. I think Buddy’s up for it. I don’t think you’ve even asked Buddy.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My rescue dog Buddy is not up for pulling my socks off, I’m telling you that right now, Emma.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, we’ll find out for sure next week.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You can subscribe to us if you like, we’d love that, wouldn't we Emma?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We would love that, listening to us every Friday, we drop onto your device.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Drop, drop it like it’s hot.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You can email us if you like, accessall@bbc.co.uk. And you can also still find us n Twitter, we’re @Â鶹ԼÅÄAccessAll.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, we’re getting some really nice tweets lately actually.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So many nice messages.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So many nice messages.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s so heartening.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know. One made me get a bit emotional actually. Thank you all. And we will see you next week.Ìý

[Trailer]:

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý ‘I could feel our house shaking.’ ‘That was one of the scariest battles.’ ‘I’m traumatised.’ ‘I’m completely destroyed.’

VICTORIA-ÌýÌý Hello, I’m Victoria Derbyshire, one of the hosts of Ukrainecast. We actually put out the first episode of Ukrainecast on the very first day of the war when Russia invaded Ukraine.

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This is a European country and it’s at war. It’s extraordinary.

VICTORIA-ÌýÌý So much has happened since then, and all the way through we’ve been trying to tell people’s stories, what’s really happening on the ground in Ukraine.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My elder daughter was lying on the ground. She had been dead.

VICTORIA-ÌýÌý And we’ll be here for you, making sense of it all for as long as we need to be.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý ‘People were being snatched and disappearing.’ ‘People took to the streets even after the Ukrainian forces had gone.’

VICTORIA-ÌýÌý Ukrainecast is made by the same Â鶹ԼÅÄ News team that makes this podcast.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý This is it, this is the war of the direst evil against all of humanity.

VICTORIA-ÌýÌý Listen to Ukrainecast on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. Just search for Ukrainecast on Â鶹ԼÅÄ Sounds.

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