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NIKKI- We went to see the Fleet Foxes in concert.

EMMA- You went to a concert? Lovely.

NIKKI- I went to a concert. You know my love for music.

EMMA- Yes.

NIKKI- I love the Fleet Foxes. I introduced Rach to the Fleet Foxes, Rachel being my sister. She also quite fancies the lead singer. But yeah, we drove all the way up. My boyfriend came; Rach and her PA came, Soph. And we had a lovely old time. And honestly, Emma, nothing happened that like caused any problemos with two disableds going on tour and going to a concert.

EMMA- Parking was okay?

NIKKI- Parking was dandy. Hotel was brilliant. 

EMMA- The viewing platform was all right? 

NIKKI- It was lovely. It was at the back, but the venue that we went to wasn’t enormous. No one’s heads were blocking my view. We were right by the bar. Honestly, we got really looked after; someone went and got the drinks for us as well. 

EMMA- Oh my gosh, that is the dream, because you spend half your time at gigs waiting at the bar for a drink. So, that is actually the dream. 

NIKKI- It was ooh la la.

EMMA- So, nothing went wrong? 

NIKKI- Nothing went wrong. The only thing Rach and I, my sister, we were going to get two taxis, accessible taxis, and we dialled and it seemed there was only one in the area. So, I gave that taxi to Rach and my boyfriend was like, I’ll drive. He’s got a big van, he’s got a ramp, so it was like stick the old chair in the back. So, it was all a bit off the cuff. But we did it and it was lovely.

EMMA- So, you didn’t fall off the viewing platform? 

NIKKI- Didn’t fall of the viewing platform, no we did not, no. and they were brilliant the Fleet Foxes. Honestly, see them live. They are amazing. 

EMMA- Yeah. You weren’t asked for proof of disability on the way in or anything?

NIKKI- [Laughs] No. Do you know what, Emma, the two girls that rocked up in their electric wheelchairs with headrests weren’t asked if they were disabled.

EMMA- Well, I’ve heard of people being asked for medical evidence before they go into a concert. Do you really need that carer with you? What are they actually going to do for you? Could you not go in without them? 

NIKKI- No, it was more like, do you want another carer. 

MUSIC- Theme music. 

NIKKI- This is Access All, the Â鶹ԼÅÄ’s disability and mental health podcast. Thanks so much for listening. I’m Nikki Fox and I’m in London. 

EMMA- And I’m Emma Tracey and I’m in Edinburgh.

NIKKI- Now, get ready to be shocked because we have got some very rudey-dudey audio description for you later. Plus: 

STEVIE- Yeah mum, Vinnie and I are going to do a gig. It’s going to be banging. 

NIKKI- That’s a clip from the Netflix film, I Used to be Famous. We’re going to be speaking to its lead actor, Leo Long, later. 

Now, remember back in the early days of COVID at 5 o’clock every day there was a televised briefing from Downing Street, giving us all the latest information about the virus we all needed to know about. 

BORIS- Good evening. The coronavirus is the biggest threat this country has faced for decades. And this country is not alone. All over the world we’re seeing the devastating impact of this invisible killer.

NIKKI- Now, as this episode of Access All lands on your phone or smart speaker 276 deaf British Sign Language users are taking the UK government to court. They want compensation for lack of access to key coronavirus information. When the first nine of the briefings in March 2020 went ahead without any BSL Lynn Stewart-Taylor started the hashtag ‘Where is the interpreter?’ to raise awareness. It was after then that onscreen BSL became available on the Â鶹ԼÅÄ News channel and iPlayer, but deaf people still felt shut out because interpreters weren’t at the event itself. Scotland, Wales and North Ireland had interpreters at their actual briefings from the start, so two and a half years later on International Day of Sign Languages the campaign for answers on why Downing Street didn’t follow suit continues. Lynn’s here to tell us the rest. Hello Lynn.

LYNN- Hi. Thank you so much having me here to join you guys today. Thank you. 

NIKKI- Now, Lynn speaks British Sign Language, so the voice that you’re hearing now is her interpreter Moira. And in the studio right next to me, my left-hand man at the moment, is deaf journalist Liam O’Dell. Now, Liam has followed the story from the very beginning and he is here to help us with the tricky bits. Because it's fair to say it’s quite complicated, isn’t it, Liam?

 LIAM- Yes, there’s a lot of legal side of things to get your head around for sure. 

NIKKI- Let’s wrap our bonce around the legals first. Lynn, first of all what difference does it make if the signer is an onscreen signer in the corner of the screen or actually there in person? Why is it important?

LYNN- The difference is huge in terms of an in-vision interpreter and the interpreter being there, because the rest of society were able to just tap on Â鶹ԼÅÄ One and have that access. Whereas the rest of us had to search for these channels, or attempt to understand via subtitles. We had such limited choice in terms of where we got that information from. So, of course you can understand we didn’t feel a sense of belonging, we didn’t feel valued. That would have made us feel valued. We would have felt we were part of British society, the wider community, but we don’t feel that way at all. We feel excluded. We feel there’s an element of shame from the government in terms of our society. And they just think oh, we didn’t think about it at the time. That’s not an excuse. We’re not an afterthought. There should be foresight.

NIKKI- When the pandemic started everyone was terrified, disabled or not. But you didn’t have access to those first nine briefings; they had no BSL. I would like you to explain why subtitles don’t work for everyone who’s deaf. Because there were subtitles, weren’t there? 

LYNN- Yes. I am a BSL user, and BSL itself is a very rich language. It has its own grammar, it has its own structure, it has its own linguistics; it’s an official language the same as any other language. We can be lecturers, we can work in any jobs we want with that language because we have the capabilities because it’s such a rich language. Now, in terms of English the education that deaf people received was appalling and therefore we struggle. We were forced to lipread. We pick up maybe 30% of a conversation via lipreading. So, imagine growing up in school and being forced to lipread and how much, or how little I should say, you’re picking up. So, how are you meant to develop your English skills if that’s what you’ve got in terms of education? 

NIKKI- There really were people that could not get that information in any way, because for the first nine briefings there was no BSL, and some deaf people, from what you’re telling me, can’t read English, so there was no information. 

LYNN- Absolutely. And it’s terrifying. So, lots of deaf people were out there, taking their lovely long walks, going to the shops thinking, oh it obviously isn’t anything too serious. But the rest of society knew it was. The realisation came when we realised it was on every channel. And we then had to rely on other people, rely on other people to give us that information, because the government weren’t. so, thank goodness to organisations such as RAD, Sign Health, BDA, so at 5 o’clock they’d have their briefing. We’d wait with massive anticipation thinking what are they saying now, what are they saying now. They obviously had to watch it, understand it, translate it, get an interpreter or get a deaf person to sign it, and then it would be two hours later before we’d even have access to that information. that is not acceptable. Two hours later. Who would accept that? Nobody would accept that. 

NIKKI- I know. 

LYNN- It was just we didn’t feel any value at all. 

NIKKI- Just bringing Liam in here actually, Lynn. Thank you so much. Liam, what reason did the government give for not having an in-person interpreter? 

LIAM- So, they responded to a parliamentary decision that was signed by a few thousand – I don’t know the number off the top of my head. But the reason they gave is limited space. And over time, funnily enough, as we look back on it, that excuse kind of crumbled over time. Obviously there was Caroline Nokes, the chair of the Woman and Equalities Select Committee in the Commons basically saying, find another room, there are many other rooms in Downing Street that will do the job. Obviously it was undermined as well when Dominic Cummings was in the Rose Garden and was perfectly able to give a press conference out there. But then also in that same response they were saying, oh yeah, limited space, social distancing, the government practises social distancing. And as some people involved in the campaign have pointed out, well the government says it practises social distancing and then Partygate happened. So, a lot of the arguments that it was giving, primarily limited space, don’t stand up to scrutiny anymore. 

NIKKI- Because there was a successful judicial review, wasn’t there, in 2021 where two of the Downing Street briefings were found to be unlawful under the Equality Act. Two. Explain that to me.

LIAM- The on-screen interpreter was eventually provided by the Â鶹ԼÅÄ, not the government. And the Â鶹ԼÅÄ had its own stipulations as to when it would provide that interpretation. And it said it would not do it for these scientific briefings. So, just to make the distinction between the two: ministerial briefings were the ones where Boris Johnson were in front of the camera, or Rishi Sunak, Matt Hancock. The scientific briefings were the ones which were presented by Chris Whitty, Patrick Vallance, Jonathan Van-Tam. And the Â鶹ԼÅÄ said they would not provide interpretation for that whatsoever. So, what essentially happened was the government relied on the Â鶹ԼÅÄ; the Â鶹ԼÅÄ said they weren’t going to do it. So, there was no interpretation whatsoever. And that then led grounds to a claim from the deaf campaigners, and the judge agreed. And they were found in those two instances where the scientific briefings happened that they were in breach of the Equality Act.

NIKKI- So, why is that you and Lynn and over 250 other deaf people are still going down the legal route now? Is that not done and dusted?

LIAM- So, there’s a real sense from the government that they’re just not taking this seriously, they’re not taking this as seriously. Conferences are still happening where interpretation is not being provided there in-person. And one of the things with that is if it’s in-person you don’t have to worry about it being just on the Â鶹ԼÅÄ or just on one particular channel, because it’s accessible by default. And you think just to recent examples, Liz Truss stood on the steps of Downing Street making her first speech as Prime Minister, no BSL interpreter was next to her. So, there’s the sense that the government still doesn’t get it. 

EMMA- Liam, what is this current hearing about?

LIAM- This one – and you’ve kind of touched upon it previously – relates to those first nine briefings where there was nothing whatsoever. So, this case tomorrow is asking whether or not deaf people should be compensated for that. And the hearing basically will see solicitors, barristers representing the deaf community, making the case that they should, and the government obviously arguing that they shouldn’t. That’s the basic crux of the issue, if you like. 

NIKKI- Okay. 

LIAM- In the conversations that I’ve had with the solicitor involved it definitely seems as though we’ll get a decision on the day, just because the government wants to strike this out as soon as possible. And then of course depending on either result, whether it goes in the government’s favour or goes in the deaf community’s favour, there may well be appeals. And Lynn’s made clear already in the run up to this court case tomorrow that it’s not about the money involved when they’re claiming compensation for this; it is merely or more a punitive measure to basically hit the government a little bit financially to say, look this is what will happen if you keep treating deaf people as second class citizens with access. This is a government that just a few months ago was praising how wonderful it was to throw its support behind the British Sign Language Act campaign, and they’re still actively working on it. there’s an advisory board that they’re trying to set up and it’s all lovely jubbly, if you were. But then behind the scenes they’re still showing this attitude whereby they’re not including deaf people in briefings. So, we need more action, not just kind of platitudes at this point. We need a greater sense of them being aware of the accessibility barriers that they’re creating. 

NIKKI- So, a government spokesperson said to us, ‘We are committed to supporting disabled people and establish BSL interpretation at the Number 10 COVID press conferences via the Â鶹ԼÅÄ News channel and iPlayer, available on all TV packages as part of Freeview. The Â鶹ԼÅÄ also made their video feed for the BSL interpreter available to all other broadcasters and for use on Number 10 social channels’. They go on to say, ‘We continue to work across government to ensure that information and guidance is fully accessible’. In a nutshell how do you feel about that statement? 

LIAM- They keep passing the blame. 

LYNN- All talk no action. I’m sure it looks great on paper, but just prove to us that you’re going to do this. Action it rather than talk about it. And then we’ll feel like we’re valued. But right now it’s just a piece of paper with words on it. 

EMMA- Lynn, what do you hope to get from bringing this to court? What would your ideal outcome be?

LYNN- Acceptance in the wider society. An acceptance that they’ve done us wrong and make it right. It’s never too late. Just change it, that’s it. Just put an interpreter in place. It’s such a simple, simple solution. Think of your deaf citizens that live in this country and include us.

EMMA- And have an interpreter at all public government briefings, is that it?

LYNN- Yes. I mean, I would like for that to be a thing. And I feel like access has actually got worse. We need to be considered again. We’ve achieved a lot, and it was a terrifying time, but we actually joined forces and I think the strength of the community has actually increased. 

EMMA- It does feel like a real community thing actually. You’re all going to watch it virtually, there are going to be people in there, and there’s even a plan to go to the pub afterwards to celebrate International Day of Sign Language, is that right?

LYNN- Yes, exactly that. 

NIKKI- Well, thank you both. Thank you, Lynn. Thank you Liam for coming in as well. It’s been a real pleasure speaking to you. And I hope a lot of people that weren’t familiar with the situation facing deaf people at that time will get a better understanding of what it’s like to be information-less for a period of time, during the most terrifying of times. 

EMMA- Nikki, I see you’ve done sort of Instagram reel this week. I mean, I didn’t watch it because I always think reels aren’t going to be accessible. Was it accessible? What were you doing? 

NIKKI- I was going to say, well that’s charming. Okay, I’ve made this pledge that I’m going to try and be better on social media because I feel this is where my career is falling short and rubbish. I had a couple of hours to myself, I’m going to do a video, so I thought yeah, get on it. I was like, right be a good disabled, get your captions going, you know, you are the disability correspondent at the Â鶹ԼÅÄ, make sure you subtitle this video. Couldn’t work it out because I’m technically inept. But I found how to do it – called my sister – very proud of myself. Watched it back after I uploaded it, the captions stopped halfway. 

EMMA- Oh, after all the work? 

NIKKI- They did. But what would I need to do to make it accessible for you, Em? Just not do a reel?

EMMA- Yeah, just stick a video up there. Do you know what, I don’t even go into reels because I’m afraid of them. I just think it’s going to be inaccessible. And there are so many inaccessible things in my life – oh, here I go again – that I just sort of stick to what I know often. 

NIKKI- I’ll be honest with you, Emma, I didn’t think I was doing a reel; I thought it was just a video. That about says it all, doesn’t it?

EMMA- Yeah, yeah. 

NIKKI- But Dave, our studio manager behind the glass, we call him the wizard. He’s a technical genius. He sent us this video the other day. It’s from a blind influencer and she’s telling us about an unexpected photo she received. Now, even though people know she can’t see it seems that some men like to send her pictures that she describes as:

CLAIRE- A lot of lower regional area pictures from guys.

NIKKI- She has to use AI technology to tell her what is in pictures, and the technology isn’t always perfect. 

CLAIRE- Maybe they don’t believe I’m blind, but I rely on a screen reader to narrate my phone to me, and it also narrates images. And I have just received an image, and I have to share this with you, this is what my screen reader has described to me: ‘One face, probably a mushroom growing in the ground’. 

EMMA- So, obviously it looked at the picture that Claire Sisk got sent, that’s the influencer we’re talking about here, and decided that rather than the lower regions of a man, it was probably a mushroom growing in the ground. 

NIKKI- Oh, I just love it so much. What else could you use to describe? That’s brilliant. 

EMMA- Well, I’m sort of hoping a cucumber maybe.

NIKKI- Aubergine. 

EMMA- What’s AI technology, Nikki?

NIKKI- Artificial intelligence, doody.

EMMA- What does it mean?

NIKKI- Emma, you’re testing me. This isn’t on the script. I’m thinking Terminator, Skynet.

EMMA- Isn’t it the technology is sort of using intelligence, or whatever that means, to kind of guess at stuff to be a bit more human? Is that what it is?

NIKKI- Yes, Emma Tracey, that’s what it is. Emma Tracey, I don’t have any idea.

EMMA- I know, that’s why I asked you!

NIKKI- I always say AI but what is it? I think robots, do you know what I mean? 

EMMA- Well, I just thought if I heard AI technology I might not necessarily know what it means. But I also knew you didn’t know what it means, that’s why I asked you. 

NIKKI- I’ll tell you what, I’d love to know what the audio description is like for Naked Attraction. 

EMMA- What is that? Is that the programme where everyone has to get naked the first time they meet?

NIKKI- Get their bits and bobs out yeah, yeah, yeah. You choose someone by your naked body.

EMMA- Well, the first time I ever went to the cinema to see audio description it was for Brokeback Mountain, which has quite a lot of sex scenes. Or maybe it only has one sex scene, but it seemed like a long sex scene because it was audio description and I wasn’t used to that. 

NIKKI- Oh amazing. What did they say?

EMMA- So, I can’t remember the exact description from Brokeback Mountain, but the kind of thing audio describers usually say is, ‘She looked into his eyes lovingly. He puts his arm around her and draws her in for a deep kiss’. 

NIKKI- Oh, a deep kiss.

EMMA- Yeah.

NIKKI- Wowzers. What about 50 Shades of Grey?

EMMA- I haven’t watched that, Nicola.

NIKKI- No, I haven’t either. But can you imagine the audio description on that? 

EMMA- You see, I read a lot of audio books as well so I’m used to other voices saying really sort of – not that I listen to audio porn – but really sort of sexy things. 

NIKKI- I’m doing that really annoying thing, because I don’t have a clue what it’s like, getting all excited about it and sounding like a bit of a perv. 

EMMA- It would be quite good if there was an audio describer that just followed me around. 

NIKKI- That would be good. 

EMMA- Just saying, ‘Nikki sits down in the studio. She looks tired, but ready for a great podcast’.

NIKKI- That’s quite good, that. ‘Nikki clearly missed her mouth when she drunk her coffee and had stains all over her top. Nikki couldn’t find a brush this morning.’ Dave, the wizard in the studio, didn’t bank on us doing this when he sent us that clip. 

EMMA- Oh my gosh, Dave has found us a clip of the TV show Naked Attraction. 

NIKKI- Oh Dave, you filthy, filthy genius. [Music] Stop it!

CLIP- She scans the smorgasbord of shlongs on display…

NIKKI- No!

CLIP- …from lengthy trouser snakes to peckers. 

NIKKI- No!

CLIP- Ally purses her lips, browsing the offerings like she’s perusing a dinner menu. 

NIKKI- Oh that is…she said shlong!

EMMA- And trouser snake.

NIKKI- Browsing like she’s browsing a dinner menu.

EMMA- But this is not objective. Audio description is supposed to be reasonably informative. But they’re just throwing in words there. 

NIKKI- I don’t know what it’s like to not see, but if I couldn’t see I’d want to hear the word schlong. 

EMMA- But trouser snake though. If you can’t see and you don’t read magazines and stuff you might not even know what a trouser snake is.

NIKKI- No, that’s true. But browsing the various schlongs like she’s browsing a dinner menu.

EMMA- It’s one of the usual describers as well. I’ve heard her describe Coronation Street, children’s stuff on CBeebies. The describers are my friends now. And when I hear them say that sort of chat I’m like how can I now listen to you do the Twirlywoos tomorrow morning?

NIKKI- This has thrown you, hasn’t it, Ems?

EMMA- It’s just I wish it wasn’t her. I wish it was someone else. 

NIKKI- Oh, you like her. You know this…

EMMA- She’s like a middle aged lady. She seems like a nice lady.

NIKKI- She’s having a whale of a time. That’s the best gig she’s ever had. She didn’t mention the pubic hair, but then pubic hair it’s gone now, hasn’t it? we’re all bald, aren’t we?

EMMA- No comment. 

MUSIC- Access All with Nikki Fox.

NIKKI- We’re a very good judge of talent here at Access All. We’ve given a platform to many accomplished people including your presenters, of course. And today is no exception. Leo Long is a 21 year old actor, a model, drummer and banjo player, who is also neurodivergent. Now, after performing in orchestras and folk bands he spotted an advert for an autistic drummer to be in a Netflix film. He applied, totally smashed the audition and bagged the lead role in I Used to be Famous. Joining us now is the wonderful Leo Long. Hello Leo.

LEO- Hello. 

NIKKI- So lovely to meet you. How are you adjusting to life as a film star, Leo?

LEO- Oh, it’s been a very wonderful moment for me. 

VINCE- [Clip] Stand up man. Phew. You’re a rock star, bro. Take a deep breath. Can you hear that? They’re calling our name, bro. Can you feel that? 

LEO- Yes, Vince, I’m feeling it.

NIKKI- I watched it last night, Leo. Honestly, I don’t know whether it’s because I’m just getting more emotional as I’m getting older, but I was welling up all the way through it. I absolutely loved it. It’s the kind of film I adore. You know like School of Rock, I’ve watched that about 5,000 times. 

EMMA- Yeah, Fame.

NIKKI- Anything with music I absolutely love. No, I didn’t watch Fame. I never watched Fame, Emma. But I just absolutely loved it. And to give a brief rundown you play a character called Stevie, who’s a very talented drummer, who also happens to be autistic. And you play alongside the other character called Vince, who used to be very famous in a boy band style group, didn’t he, 20 odd years ago. And he’s a bit down on his luck now, and he has a chance meeting with you, and it kind of changes his life. That’s probably a good way of explaining the film. And oh, it’s beautiful. You two are brilliant together. What was that relationship like with the actor who played Vince in the film? 

LEO- Me and Ed Skrein are like a little, big brother at the moment. We’re both Liverpool fans. We had great chemistry by reading lines together. 

VINCE- Stevie, I need to level with you okay. Dude, what do you want more than anything else in this entire world?

STEVIE- I want to go to a music school. 

VINCE- Right. Listen, if we do this gig it’s going to open up some real opportunities for you man. I’ve got some really important people coming down. Do you know Austin Roberts? No? All right, well he’s a really big deal, right. And if we impress him, Stevie, we might be able to go on tour. Imagine me and you on tour together. 

STEVIE- That’s a lot of performances. 

VINCE- Yeah. 

NIKKI- Oh, I love that. And is it right, before you started acting – obviously I know you’re a musician because I can tell from the film you were definitely playing those drums – but your passion is music, isn’t it? And it’s a big passion of mine. I actually studied it at uni. I wasn’t as good as you, nowhere near. 

LEO- Firstly I played drums. My instruments are bodhran, bazooka and banjo. 

EMMA- Bodhran, I’m Irish and I’m proud of that. And we love our bodhran. How did you get into playing the bodhran?

LEO- That’s a good question. Since I was 16 I got the bodhran and I took it to a folk festival. Then I went to Ireland with my grandparents and I’ve been inspired by a band member called Brian Dunphy from the High Kings. And I saw my first High Kings gig in Tipperary in Golden GAA Place. 

NIKKI- I don’t know these. Do you know, Emma?

EMMA- It’s a traditional Irish band. But the bodhran is really technical. It looks like just a big circle of hide on a bit of wood, but it’s a really technical instrument. And people learn from each other how to play it. It’s kind of a one person teaches the next person teaches the next person. I’m sure there’s a ton of YouTube videos as well. It’s quite a tricky one, isn’t it, to get really good at?

LEO- Yeah. 

VINCE- [Clip] I got us a gig at Peckham’s finest. But if we’re going to do it we need to practise, man. We need to rehearse, rehearse, rehearse. What do you think, man?

STEVIE- I’ve never had a gig in my entire life.

VINCE- Yeah, this is your chance, dude!

STEVIE- So scary though. I don’t like big crowds and sudden things. 

MUM- Everything all right, Stevie?

STEVIE- Yeah mum. Vinnie and I are going to do a gig. It’s going to be banging. 

NIKKI- I love that song that you play, the very first song. Was that an original song? 

LEO- It’s written by the London Grammar band. 

NIKKI- Oh, was it London Grammar?

LEO- Yeah, that’s right. They make good soundtracks which literally fit the story for I Used to be Famous. [Music] 

NIKKI- This music really does fit it perfectly. I had no idea London Grammar wrote that. That’s really interesting. 

EMMA- I know. They’re huge. Thinking about being neurodivergent what does that look like for you? 

LEO- It’s a good thing for me. I really love all the ideas that came out of my head. Actually when I do the film as a neurodivergent actor I really want to punch the barrier so other neurodivergent people can follow me and have a great career in their industries. 

NIKKI- Is that something that’s very important to you, Leo, to be a role model for other people who are neurodivergent?

LEO- Yes. I think the music made me want to go forward in life. 

NIKKI- Yes, me too. You know, funny when I was young – I’m now 100 years old – I got given free piano lessons in school. Because I’m disabled, Leo, I’ve got a physical disability, so I use a little mobility scooter to get around. I got given free piano lessons because I couldn’t do PE like all the other kids could. So, that is what got me into music. [Song]

LEO- I’m very proud of that film. For my time in those I’d rather be in for an acting job forward in my life. 

NIKKI- Well, it’s a good job you’re starring in Shakespeare’s Much Ado About Nothing then really, isn’t it? 

LEO- That’s right. I was very excited for touring around England. 

EMMA- Tell me about your character. 

LEO- I am playing the role of the watchman, Hugh Oatcake. 

NIKKI- What a name. 

EMMA- Did you just say Oatcake?

NIKKI- Oatcake.

LEO- Yes, that’s right. 

NIKKI- Oh, I could eat an oatcake now. 

EMMA- Yeah. What’s he like?

LEO- He’s like a very confident watchman who really wants to do their jobs. And they capture two villains, Borachio and Conrad, and then bring them back to Dogberry and Verges.

NIKKI- This is exciting, isn’t it? I had a thoroughly enjoyable evening last night watching you. You are absolutely brilliant. 

LEO- Thank you so much for having me. 

NIKKI- Thank you darling. Now, listen, if you want to see Leo in action you can watch I Used to be Famous. It’s available in the cinemas or it’s on Netflix. And if Shakespeare’s more your bag he’s in Much Ado about Nothing, and that’s touring across the UK and there will still be a few dates left, so check that out.  [Music] Well, what a show, Emma. 

EMMA- Another cracker methinks. It’s been really good fun anyway. 

NIKKI- Thank you so, so much for listening. And as always, keep your messages coming in; we absolutely love to hear from you. And if you like what you hear throw two dogs a bone. 

EMMA- Two bones, I’m going to say. 

NIKKI- Two bones, and click on subscribe on the Access All Sounds website, or wherever you get your podcasts. 

EMMA- And you can always rate us as well. 

NIKKI- Oh yeah.

EMMA- If you think that we deserve that. Five stars please, that would be great. And a review also really, really helps us to get up those charts.

NIKKI- Can we do our own review?

EMMA- I might pop in myself and do a little review.

NIKKI- Those two are really good, really hot. Well, thank you all for listening, it’s been a great one, and we will see you next week. Bye. 

EMMA- Bye. 

CLIP- ‘I could feel our house shaking.’ ‘That was one of the scariest battles.’ ‘I’m traumatised.’ ‘I’m completely destroyed.’ 

VICTORIA- Hello, I’m Victoria Derbyshire, one of the hosts of Ukrainecast. We actually put out the first episode of Ukrainecast on the very first day of the war when Russia invaded Ukraine. 

CLIP- This is a European country and it’s at war. It’s extraordinary. 

VICTORIA- So much has happened since then, and all the way through we’ve been trying to tell people’s stories, what’s really happening on the ground in Ukraine. 

CLIP- My elder daughter was lying on the ground. She had been dead.

VICTORIA- And we’ll be here for you, making sense of it all for as long as we need to be.

CLIP- ‘People were being snatched and disappearing.’ ‘People took to the streets even after the Ukrainian forces had gone.’ 

VICTORIA- Ukrainecast is made by the same Â鶹ԼÅÄ News team that makes this podcast. 

CLIP- This is it, this is the war of the direst evil against all of humanity. 

VICTORIA- Listen to Ukrainecast on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. Just search for Ukrainecast on Â鶹ԼÅÄ Sounds.