麻豆约拍

This is the full transcript of Ouch 鈥� Mentally Interesting as published on the 4th October 2021 , and presented by Mark Brown and Seaneen Molloy.

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JINGLE - 麻豆约拍 Sounds: music, radio, podcasts

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[Music]

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SEANEEN - When, I would get home. If I got a withheld number on my phone I would have a panic attack because I would be so worried that this was the ward calling me saying I鈥檇 done something wrong.

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DIANE - I probably got depression when I was in my mid-teens. But I didn鈥檛 even declare it 鈥� I hate that term 鈥� when I applied for the job at Business Disability Forum, even though we are a disability and mental health charity.

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MARK - I built a miniature fish and chip shop out of cardboard.

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SEANEEN 鈥� Why?

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MARK - Let鈥檚 just stay in the podcast, eh?

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[Music]

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Mentally interesting; that鈥檚 what we鈥檙e calling this podcast about the things that are going on inside our heads. I鈥檓 Mark Brown.

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SEANEEN - And I鈥檓 Seaneen Molloy. We鈥檙e long-time friends who both live and work around mental health. We both like thinking and talking about it too and that鈥檚 why we鈥檙e here.

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MARK - It certainly is. It鈥檚 good to see you, well hear you. How are you doing today?

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SEANEEN - I am well. I am enjoying the terrible weather weirdly because it feels like autumn is coming at last and we are moving through these horror show years.

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MARK - Yeah, I can鈥檛 get enough of grey skies. Grey skies are the things for me. On this podcast: the mental health of major sports stars has been in the news of late. And with double jab vaccines at a higher level many of us are now being encouraged to go back to the office. Remember the office?

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SEANEEN - Very vaguely. Our main theme on this programme is work, and to cement that coming up a bit later is our guest Diane Lightfoot, CEO of the Business Disability Forum. She鈥檒l help us thrash through the latest ideas about mental health in the workplace, and she also advises businesses so she can tell their side of the story too.

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MARK - And our new fun feature will be here as well, which we鈥檝e given a very everyday language name so that everyone will understand it at home. We鈥檝e called it maladaptive coping strategy of the month, yeah maladaptive coping strategy of the month.

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SEANEEN - Yes, I can鈥檛 wait to talk that one through! If you have tales to tell about how being mentally interesting has kept your work, well, interesting, email ouch@bbc.co.uk or find us on Facebook or Twitter by searching for 麻豆约拍 Ouch.

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MARK - So, Seaneen what鈥檚 your dream job and are you doing it or are you not doing it.

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SEANEEN - Well, when I was a child my dream job was to be James Herriot. So, I wanted to be a vet and a writer. I wanted to write novels and live in a massive house in North London somewhere. I鈥檓 not doing that. I live in a small house in Belfast.

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MARK - But a beautiful one.

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SEANEEN - I鈥檓 not doing my dream job, but to be honest I鈥檓 doing the job which works for me. So, I have a bit of a strange work history. I was off work for five years because of my mental health, and I really didn鈥檛 know how to get back into work. It seemed insurmountable. I鈥檇 had a really bad experience when I was too ill to work, and had destroyed my CV because I kept getting sacked basically. I shouldn鈥檛 have been working but I didn鈥檛 know what else to do. So, I had this terrible CV with references which would say, 鈥榙o not employ, completely mental, ran round the office like a nutcase, unreliable and bizarre鈥�. So, I didn鈥檛 really know how to get back to work. So, my work trajectory has been a bit strange because I got jobs from writing my blog, and that sort of became my CV. So, I carved out my own niche a little bit and started working in mental health communications, which is where I still work. I occasionally stepped back from working in mental health, but I always return to it because it鈥檚 just what interests me. And it means there鈥檚 a bit more understanding around mental health and I don鈥檛 feel like I need to hide my experiences and my diagnosis. So, I think I鈥檓 probably in as good a place as I can be in terms of my employment. And it worked out better than I expected because basically my mental health, as well as destroying my CV, destroyed my education. I don鈥檛 have a degree.

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MARK - Neither do I.

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SEANEEN - I only have seven GCSEs because I dropped out of school, because that was where I had my first experience of mental illness. What about you, are you in your dream job?

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MARK - I鈥檝e got no idea what my dream job would be. Like you, bizarrely, I read all of the James Herriot books when I was about ten or 11, so I too pictured myself in a 1930s car going uphill and down dale sticking my hand up cows鈥� bums and stuff like that. And again similar to you I had a kind of dream that I would be a writer and I would make loads of money and stuff like that. The only drawback to that was I didn鈥檛 know how to write, and writing doesn鈥檛 make loads of money.

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SEANEEN - It鈥檚 a pretty essential skill there.

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MARK听 -I was unemployed for ages. I didn鈥檛 have any idea about how I wouldn鈥檛 end up doing the kinds of jobs that I鈥檇 seen people around me growing up do. It sounds really stereotyped to say but I鈥檓 like two generations away from being a miner. My granddad was a miner. And in Newcastle there wasn鈥檛 that many novelists floating around going, do you know what, I鈥檒l give you some advice about being a novelist. So, I kind of just bumbled through and ended up on the internet kind of whanging on about stuff. And by a strange set of events I ended up being the editor of a creative writing website, and everything grew from that. But it was literally a chance occurrence being noticed by someone and being asked to be a volunteer, and then turning from a volunteer into someone who was getting paid.

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But I don鈥檛 really know what my dream job would have been. I don鈥檛 know what I pictured. Like, in some way, I wanted a freedom from having to be consistent every day, and I wanted the kind freedom from doing anything that would mess people鈥檚 lives up. But what I did do when I left school was I worked in social care. So, I did a really weird thing of deciding, because I鈥檇 had difficulties myself, what I needed to do most was work with other people who鈥檇 had difficulties themselves or were having difficulties. And yes, that turns out to be really, really stressful.

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Then I went to university for a bit. Absolutely lost it. And then spent about three years trying to find my way back into work. I was probably the world鈥檚 worst student in that I just had no idea what I was doing. I鈥檇 been working in social care and I was just really, really tired. I was a bit older, I was 21 and realised one, everyone else was 18 and were asking me, 鈥渨hat did you do for your A-levels and what鈥檚 your favourite band?鈥� and I was like, 鈥測eah can I talk to you about what it鈥檚 like to do a care review for someone?鈥� and they were like, 鈥測eah, get back in your room, you weirdo鈥�. So, I felt I was this kind of weird and haunted figure, and I just never found my footing. I sometimes think about this in terms of working life as well, I never felt like I belonged at university. And I could feel myself becoming more and more unwell, but I just didn鈥檛 have the grounding to know how to step in early enough and try to change things. And I couldn鈥檛 really express it terrifically well.

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So, I ended up just in my room eating crisps, running out of money for like two years. It was awful, really, really awful. And one of the reasons why social care had been such a taxing thing was one, you spend all day with people who need your support and they need your encouragement and they need you to be there for them and consistent; and two, the pressure of that, knowing that if you do a bad job you鈥檙e making someone鈥檚 life infinitely, infinitely worse, and you鈥檙e contributing to someone having a terrible time. And that really, really weighed on me.

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SEANEEN - Yeah, I totally get that. I did 18 months of a mental health nursing degree because again, it was like how can I use my experiences for something good. It was also a way to get me back into education. I did an access course which was funded by direct payments, so the mental health team set it up. I loved the side of working with people. But what I hated and what I found absolutely terrifying was that if I did something wrong it could have such a big impact. And I remember when I would get home if I got a withheld number on my phone I would have a panic attack because I would be so worried that this was the ward calling me saying that I鈥檇 done something wrong. And I couldn鈥檛 cope with that level of responsibility.

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There were a lot of other things about that degree which just didn鈥檛 fit. The biggest thing really was the shift work with bipolar is a complete no-no. Basically the whole way you stay well with bipolar, or at least try to, is by getting enough sleep, and shift work just completely disrupts that. And also in my case when I was doing nursing I was taking hard-core medication which made me very sleepy, and the shift work meant that I actually couldn鈥檛 take it in the evening and wake up in the morning to go and do my shifts. So, it was just a massive storm of stuff that did not work or help. I became really unwell and had to drop out.

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MARK - As I get older I realise that the majority of jobs basically are reducible down to one thing, which is doing something you don鈥檛 feel like doing at a time that you don鈥檛 feel at your best position to do it. I do a bit of journalism; people say 鈥渙h, it must be great to do a bit of journalism鈥�. I say 鈥渘o, because journalism is literally writing stuff when you don鈥檛 feel like writing stuff, more quickly than you want to always鈥�. [Laughs]

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SEANEEN - Well, that鈥檚 kind of relevant. Gymnast Simone Biles she鈥檚 been in the news for pulling out of some events for mental health reasons. And for us at work there鈥檚 a lot of gritting teeth and pushing through which happens when we鈥檙e not well, but you feel like you have to keep going anyway. And I was reading something that really hit home for me when she said that people have to realise that at the end of the day we鈥檙e humans, we鈥檙e not just entertainment.

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MARK - Yeah, it鈥檚 so weird because I really, really identified with Simone and her struggles. She was competing in the Olympics, that鈥檚 the absolute dream for a gymnast, then she pulled out and she said it鈥檚 for my mental health. The amount of on the one hand the backlash for that saying, 鈥渙h she should have had a stiff upper lip, she was letting everyone down鈥�; but also the kind of acceptance from other people going, 鈥渁ctually this is a major step forward being able to say sometimes the pressure is too much and we don鈥檛 look after people鈥�. And it鈥檚 really appropriate for Simone Biles, the idea of sticking the landing. What I find in my professional life is I end up on good days talking myself into stuff that鈥檚 wonderful, and I can absolutely do it and that鈥檚 exactly what I want to do right now. And then when it鈥檚 finally agreed and it goes to happen on the day I鈥檓 absolutely terrified, I鈥檓 absolutely worried, and I just have this deep, deep uncertainty that I can do the things on a bad day that I could definitely do on a good day. That fear of being inconsistent just dogs me hugely during working life. And I can see if you鈥檙e right in front of the cameras, right at the pinnacle of your career, that feeling of what would happen if I said, I don鈥檛 feel up to this today. Luckily, Simone came back and she won the bronze, which was amazing.

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SEANEEN 鈥� Yeah.

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MARK - I鈥檝e managed to talk myself into chances of doing things and then when it鈥檚 come to it just absolutely frozen, just absolutely been unable to carry through on the stuff that I鈥檝e agreed. And it feels horrible and it feels embarrassing and it feels shameful. And for me my working life is often dogged with this floating sense of shame. And I kind of wonder whether it鈥檚 because, I certainly have come to the job that I do through mental health that鈥檚 why I do the things that I do around mental health, and I feel like there鈥檚 not a template for that kind of work. I don鈥檛 really know what it means to be a long-term professional who experiences mental health difficulties who also basically lives on what projects I can make up and then which projects I can make happen. So, I always feel like somehow I鈥檓 doing a bad job and I鈥檓 letting people down, even if I鈥檓 just letting myself down.

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SEANEEN - For people listening I know that what Mark has been saying sounds like he鈥檚 being really, really hard on himself. And he is. I鈥檝e worked with Mark for over a decade and I know that he doesn鈥檛 let people down and he鈥檚 absolutely brilliant, hence why we do a podcast together. Because I love him and I think he鈥檚 a wonderful person and also wonderful at work.

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MARK 鈥� Aw thank you.

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SEANEEN - And the reason I didn鈥檛 really interject is because loving and knowing Mark for a long time I know he鈥檚 a pretty self-deprecating chap, and so am I a lot of the time, and it鈥檚 kind of how we operate. But yeah, Mark you are being extremely hard on yourself here. And if I鈥檝e learnt anything about work and mental health over the years one of the big things is you need to cut yourself some slack and give yourself a bit of a break, as hard as it is to do.

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MARK - It is that, but it鈥檚 also the fact that I sometimes feel like in some ways our generation of people moving from mental ill health to doing lots of stuff that maybe wasn鈥檛 open to people 20, 25 years ago it鈥檚 very hard to find someone who can guide you in that. It鈥檚 very hard to find someone you can look at and go, actually they have got useful things to tell me about the world of coming to your job through doing stuff on the internet, coming to your job as someone who鈥檚 always been open about their mental health. So, I find it鈥檚 sometimes hard in working life not to have a work mum or work dad or work auntie or uncle you can kind of turn to that鈥檚 actually, no you鈥檙e doing all right, you鈥檙e doing fine. Because the difficult thing is you always compare, well I always compare myself to people who don鈥檛 share the same difficulties, and their working life is different because they don鈥檛 share those same difficulties. So, I am quite harsh with myself because I don鈥檛 really know what the baseline is.

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SEANEEN - Well, I can be your work mum and tell you that you鈥檙e doing fine.

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MARK 鈥� Oh thank you.

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SEANEEN 鈥� You鈥檙e doing well.

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MARK - Thank you. I鈥檓 not cleaning my bedroom, I鈥檓 telling you that now. [Laughter] Don鈥檛 look under that bed whatever you do!

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This is Mentally Interesting from 麻豆约拍 Ouch. Our guest on this podcast is Diane Lightfoot who herself is mentally interesting and works as the CEO of the Business Disability Forum. The BDF is an organisation that supports businesses to recruit and keep hold of disabled staff, including people with mental health difficulties, like us. So, I鈥檇 like to extend a warm Mentally Interesting welcome to you, Diane. Hello.

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DIANE - Hello. Thank you very much Mark, that鈥檚 a very, very nice warm welcome.

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SEANEEN - As a bystander it looks like you鈥檝e kind of aced the whole work thing with mental health difficulties. How have you done that? What鈥檚 been most helpful?

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DIANE 鈥� Do you know, I think for me work was what saved me. I would say I probably got depression when I was in my mid-teens. I didn鈥檛 get a diagnosis until my mid-20s when, to be fair, I actually went to the doctor about it. Because I hadn鈥檛 done that before. It was interesting hearing you both talk; I started struggling probably towards the end of school. I鈥檇 always been very motivated, very academic, but then it dropped off. And I managed to keep it together for my A-levels, and I was saved by the fact that I鈥檓 good at exams. I didn鈥檛 do very much work in the two years but managed to do intensive revision and then spew it back up onto the exam paper and then it all fell out of my head, but I did all right. Then I went to university and I had no confidence at all, and I went from this small and very structured environment to somewhere that was huge and unstructured. And I鈥檓 saying all this with the benefit of 25 years of hindsight, more than that. And what seemed like a great thing, having a very flexible week, very little contact time, was actually so bad for me. I can remember that we pitied the engineering students 鈥� I did music 鈥� because they had nine to five Monday to Friday, and we were like, 鈥渨hy did you choose that?鈥�. Actually it meant that there was no structure, no support mechanisms and suddenly needed to self-motivate, suddenly started comparing myself unfavourably to everyone, it was hierarchical. And I totally withdrew, had no confidence and then developed a fairly serious eating disorder, stopping short of hospitalisation, because in many respects I鈥檝e always had that kind of sensible gene I guess.

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So, I got through it. I got a 2:2. And it鈥檚 only again with the benefit of talking about it in my job now, a couple of years ago, that I鈥檝e stopped seeing myself as a failure. And I thought actually, I survived that and I got through it with no support. No one ever asked me anything was going on or if I was all right. I lost more than three stone. And you can鈥檛 see me so you don鈥檛 know that that鈥檚 relevant, but I鈥檓 5ft 2, so it was quite dramatic. Now I think god, you actually finished your degree, so I completely reframed it.

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But for me work was a revelation because it was structured; everyone called each other by their first name; it was much less hierarchical, it wasn鈥檛 like you鈥檙e a first year, second year, third year. I think Mark you were saying about being 21 rather than 18.

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MARK 鈥� Yeah.

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DIANE - It just didn鈥檛 matter anymore, it just didn鈥檛. So, for a while I was quite well. And then I did struggle again and I saw a doctor and I got diagnosed, and after a couple of false starts got an antidepressant that worked for me, which I鈥檓 still on after a couple of attempts to come off it. I don鈥檛 know why I did that. And I didn鈥檛 tell any employer though for another about ten years. I remember begging a doctor鈥檚 receptionist to take my antidepressants off my prescription so I didn鈥檛 have to declare them on a medical questionnaire for a job I didn鈥檛 get. I also managed to get a job despite not showing up for an interview; I just couldn鈥檛 face it. And then it turned out there was a crisis in my current work so I used that as the excuse for not going to the interview. It was true but it was convenient. And fortunately for me they were so impressed at my work ethic they invited me for another day [laughter] when thankfully I was feeling better.

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SEANEEN 鈥� Impressive.

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DIANE - But actually the day I should have gone for my interview I was a mess. I could not, I could not have done it. And I think actually getting older has given me better coping strategies. I then went to social care organisations, and I also wanted to be a vet when I was young, the James Herriot so we鈥檙e very similar.

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MARK 鈥� That鈥檚 a strong desire.

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DIANE - It is a strong desire. But I didn鈥檛 even declare it 鈥� I hate that term 鈥� when I applied for the job at Business Disability Forum, even though we are a disability and mental health charity. And it wasn鈥檛 until I was speaking at a mental health conference a few years ago, and all the speakers were talking, very well meaning, about those people with mental health conditions. And I got up at the end and said, 鈥渢his isn鈥檛 about them and us, it shouldn鈥檛 be about them and us, and if it is I鈥檓 one of us鈥�. And the amount of people who said to me afterwards, 鈥済od that was brave鈥�, and I thought it didn鈥檛 really feel it because I鈥檝e got this position now where I can.

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So, I try and use it for that basis. I try and talk about it to make it feel okay for other people. But yeah, work kind of saved me really.

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MARK - What do businesses tell you they struggle with when they鈥檙e employing and supporting staff with more serious mental health difficulties? I鈥檝e got a diagnosis of bipolar 2 for instance, which I think is on the serious side. What do organisations tell you they have trouble with and what advice do you give them.

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DIANE - So, employers often think of mental health as being something problematic because they usually don鈥檛 know that someone has a mental health condition until at best they are starting not to cope, or at worst are really unwell and potentially in crisis mode. So, one of the things we talk to employers a lot about is around how you can encourage people to tell you that they have a mental health condition before that stage, and to identify any triggers or barriers that can be removed to help keep people well in the workforce as often as possible.

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You shared, Mark, your diagnosis of bipolar 2, and I think a lot of employers when they think about mental ill health they will think about workplace stress, they will think about depression and anxiety; but there鈥檚 often much less understanding and awareness of more severe enduring and also fluctuating conditions and how to support people around those. I think it was Seaneen mentioned not being well enough to work, and for some people actually thinking about cutting down what they鈥檙e doing or awareness of redeployment as a reasonable adjustment is quite often not there for employers. One positive that we鈥檙e seeing as well is that line managers are getting much more confident around awareness and talking about mental health, but often don鈥檛 really know what to do in terms of practical support.

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So, we did a survey for one of our members earlier this year and the awareness piece and talking about wellbeing and company level initiatives was pretty good, but they didn鈥檛 really know what to do around adjustments or how to have a conversation or know what practically they could do to support someone. So, I think there is still a bit of a gap.

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MARK - What鈥檚 a reasonable adjustment and how would you explain it in the context of a job.

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DIANE - So, a reasonable adjustment is the horrible term under the Equality Act 2010. We tend to talk about workplace adjustments. And it is a change to how, where or when somebody works or the equipment they use to mean that they can do the job as well as possible. So, for somebody with a mental health condition, and this is going back to days when we were in offices, if you have a hot desk policy it is a reasonable adjustment to say that someone being very anxious not knowing where they were going to sit could have an exemption to that policy and have a fixed desk. It also would be reasonable to say that someone that struggled with a lot of noise and distractions could have a quiet area or low lighting.

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The other one which I think is very relevant in this weird hybrid world we鈥檙e working in is just travelling at different times and avoiding the stress of travelling at rush hour that can cause a great deal of anxiety and also be physically quite difficult for people with mobility issues.

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MARK -Yeah.

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SEANEEN - I also have bipolar disorder. This is like the bipolar podcast.

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MARK - High five.

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SEANEEN - High five. [Laughter] Very high five, hyper manic five. So, I鈥檝e got bipolar disorder as well and it does mean that my health fluctuates quite a bit. And there have times at work when I haven鈥檛 been very well, and it鈥檚 really hard to stay in work when you鈥檙e not very well. Around those times my ideal week would be having the space to go to appointments, like psychiatric appointments and therapy. Often when I鈥檓 not well I need more rest and would need to work shorter hours. Usually when I鈥檓 sick as well some new medication鈥檚 been chucked into the mix, and the side effects especially when you start medication can be really hard core, make you sleepy, make you hungry, make you dopey, make you bashful, [laughter] make you every single one of the seven dwarfs. So, if I need all that to carry on and work really is an employer going to give me that flexibility? Is it reasonable for them if those adjustments were totally non-negotiable for me to stay in my job?

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DIANE - Well, as you probably expect, reasonable isn鈥檛 an absolute term. It鈥檚 nice weaselly legal language. But there are various tests that employers can do to see whether something is reasonable. So, the first thing would be whether it actually removes the barrier or solves the problem; which clearly it would as you鈥檙e self-advocating as an expert in your condition.

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The trickier ones are then impact on others. So, would you not being there mean that there was undue pressure and stress on other members of the team. But if you know that you鈥檙e going to be going on new medication then actually something that can be put in place that means that it鈥檚 copable with in that period of time. I think Bipolar UK talks quite a lot about advanced statements: so knowing that you鈥檙e going to need some support can mean that you can plan much more easily. There鈥檚 obviously the cost implication, and also just whether it will affect the rest of the service being delivered. So, if your core job can still be done another way by someone else without there being detrimental impact and without it costing the moon, then yes it absolutely can be.

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So, it has to be done on a case-by-case basis, but the more you can plan and the more you can know your own needs and how you work best then the more chance of success I would say.

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SEANEEN - Yeah, those adjustments are there but it often depends on your line manager. So, one manager can be completely open to things like advanced statements and reasonable adjustments, and you don鈥檛 have to go through any onerous checking. But then other managers are not and would say it was unreasonable.

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MARK - Because it kind of depends on whether your manager likes you and values you sometimes. Because you can have a change of manager who decides, oh not on my watch, not getting away with that.

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SEANEEN - Pretty much, and that鈥檚 been my experiences in past jobs. I鈥檓 going back to work in January after maternity leave with a new manager and I鈥檓 really anxious about having to have that conversation again.

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DIANE - I often say you can have the best policies and processes in the world but they live or die on the relationship between the employee and the line manager, and the trust and confidence there is to ask for what you need, and to know that you鈥檒l be well received and to get it.

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So, practically I think sometimes it鈥檚 about line managers being empowered and knowing what they have licence to change. And the reason I say that is I sometimes hear things about very junior managers and then have to remember that if you鈥檙e operating in very narrow confines then you need to seek permission. So, we need to make it okay for people to be flexible and think about the job that needs to be done, and not necessarily how or where or when or by whom.

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Some of the things around different managers, so some of the organisations we work with have a passport system so that if you鈥檝e agreed with one manager that you can have a certain set of adjustments, whether it鈥檚 an advanced statement or adjustments you need all the time, then they say if you move within our business or if you get a new line manager then you automatically get those same adjustments; you don鈥檛 have to go through it again, you don鈥檛 have to ask for it again. And it positions it away from being something that is a favour and effectively having to, I talk about this around mental health, kind of come out over and over again to different people. And that鈥檚 exhausting. So, if you can remove that and just make it this is what I need to do my job well, then that can make a massive difference.

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MARK - A lot of workplaces, particularly in the kind of more new media kind of tech space love to talk about how good they are to their employees and how they increase employee wellbeing, table football and a fridge full of beer and stuff like that. But it feels like sometimes organisations like to implement things that are about workplace wellbeing and not necessarily stuff that necessarily will help anyone who experiences a mental health difficulty. I can think of examples of organisations that are, oh we鈥檙e very strong on wellbeing of our employees, and then the wellbeing programme just translates into some bananas on the desk that you鈥檙e not allowed to eat.

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SEANEEN - Don鈥檛 touch the wellbeing banana!

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MARK - Get your hands off my wellbeing banana, son, you鈥檙e taking too many of them. Do you think there鈥檚 a difference between supporting people who experience mental ill health and improving the wellbeing of the overall workforce in a company? And why do some employers get it so wrong.

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DIANE - It鈥檚 got to be holistic. Your wellbeing bananas, I used to work somewhere where you had fruity Fridays. [Laughter]

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MARK - Well, it鈥檚 always that round mine. [Laughter]

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DIANE - Which is similar. There鈥檚 nothing wrong with giving people fruit and there鈥檚 nothing wrong with different apps, which can be useful in helping to identify patterns or triggers, that can be useful, or being part of a community where you can share experiences can be useful. We鈥檝e seen some of the employers we work with provide some quite practical support, like help with budgeting and finances. Some do things like yoga and Pilates. I even heard of one that does music lessons.

听

MARK - That sounds terrible. [Laughter] That sounds absolutely awful. Imagine that, I鈥檓 feeling really bad at work; here you go, here鈥檚 a ukulele, sing your pain.

听

DIANE - Sing your pain. Oh goodness, I鈥檝e got George Formby in my head now.

听

MARK - [Singing] When you鈥檙e failing at work.

听

DIANE - Go and clean some windows, yeah. But I think they mustn鈥檛 be seen as the thing, the excuse. And they do not remove the onus from the employer and the line manager for actually noticing and spotting the signs and acting if someone is unwell.

听

I also think it鈥檚 really important that employees aren鈥檛 made to feel guilty. I鈥檝e had my wellbeing banana or I鈥檝e had my wellbeing yoga, but actually I鈥檝e still got depression, am I a failure? Well no.

听

SEANEEN - It didn鈥檛 cure me.

听

DIANE - It didn鈥檛 cure me. So, it鈥檚 got to be very carefully nuanced. And it鈥檚 got to be accompanied with proper support to line managers, that kind of cultural change that I was taking about. It mustn鈥檛 just be the one thing that you do.

听

The other as well around stuff like yoga classes and music lessons and things, that鈥檚 great but only if the workload is manageable to allow for the times to do that. So, actually if it ends up that you are doing your wellbeing yoga, I suppose wellbeing bananas you could probably do while you work, that that actually means that your working day is longer, then that鈥檚 not great either. So, yeah I鈥檇 say they have their place but they are not a panacea by any means.

听

SEANEEN- And how are you and the BDF advising companies on how to support staff through the pandemic, through working from home? Can people just continue to work from home if it suits them? Have you noticed a difference in attitude, are employers being a bit more open to flexible working?

听

DIANE - I think it varies massively. I wish there was a sort of magic answer to this. So, before the pandemic the most frequently requested adjustment was working from home. The businesses we work with most of them get it, so most of them were doing that, but not all. And there were some, I鈥檓 talking again about senior leaders, who still wanted that kind of comfort of seeing people lined up outside their office. Of course the pandemic turned that on its head overnight. But now we鈥檙e really trying to grapple with how, when, how much to go back. I can say that from the perspective of being the CEO of my own organisation. We鈥檝e got about 35 people, so we鈥檙e small compared with the businesses we work with, but even across that group of people attitudes to transport, to risk really vary very hugely. And we are respecting that. We are making it completely optional to come in. We鈥檝e made the office, you can鈥檛 really say COVID safe, there鈥檚 no such thing, but COVID compliant for people who people who want to come in.

听

And it鈥檚 something that personally I really struggle with the right thing to do, because there are clearly benefits to working from home for lots of people, not just disabled people but work/life balance, all that sort of stuff. But it can have a real negative about your world can shrink, it can be lonely, it can be isolating, you lack the social stuff.

听

SEANEEN - And like what you said, some people just thrive on the structure as well.

听

DIANE - Absolutely. And I think sometimes choice isn鈥檛 brilliant. I read something the other day that said that on average human beings make 35,000 decisions a day. And I thought that鈥檚 crazy; but then it made me aware of last night I was thinking, shall I have another tortilla chip, shall I have another glass of wine. [Laughter]

听

SEANEEN 鈥� Always!

听

MARK - If you me when you鈥檙e not feeling terrifically good, instead of making 35,000 decisions a day, you just make one and worry about the remaining 34,999 ones.

听

DIANE- Yeah. so, I do wonder, and this is I鈥檓 not really talking as BDF, I鈥檓 just talking as me, whether in some cases being slightly more prescriptive but doing that consultatively and saying, if you鈥檙e got a very specific reason why you need to be at home then of course that鈥檚 fine, that maybe in some ways that would be a positive because you鈥檝e got clarity. So, I鈥檓 not sure that not having clarity is necessarily good for our mental health. But what the right answer is I think it鈥檚 too early to see.

听

So, some of the organisations we鈥檙e working with are saying they鈥檙e never going to go back to Monday to Friday, nine till five; that they would like people to come in maybe two or three days a week; but that they鈥檙e not going to start mandating anything like that until every member of the workforce has had the opportunity to get both jabs. So, I think it鈥檚 a bit watch this space really. But I do think we need to respect the fact that some people are greyhounds and want to kind of leap out of the traps and get back into the office and back into doing everything before, and others are, well whatever a slow dog is, and would actually rather stay curled up and is a bit nervous.

听

SEANEEN - A basset hound.

听

DIANE - A basset hound yes. Greyhounds and basset hounds.

听

MARK - I am a professional basset hound.

听

SEANEEN - Such a basset.

听

MARK - Big floppy ears. Diane, thank you for that, that was amazing. I feel like we got to air our dirty laundry but it turned out not to be dirty at all; it was just nice and properly high cotton. [Laughter]

听

SEANEEN - Yes, thank you very much for joining us, Diane.

听

DIANE - Thank you so much. It鈥檚 been a pleasure and a joy.

听

[Music]

听

SEANEEN - Just in case you鈥檝e forgotten this is Mentally Interesting from 麻豆约拍 Ouch. Today we鈥檙e going to be trying out a new feature that we鈥檙e calling maladaptive coping strategy of the month. Sing it Mark...

听

MARK - [Singing] Maladaptive coping strategy of the month. That was great.

听

SEANEEN - So, basically maladaptive coping strategy is what your doctor calls it when you do something to make yourself feel better that actually makes you feel quite a bit worse.

听

MARK 鈥� Yeah, so really this bit of the programme is an opportunity for me and Seaneen to unburden ourselves with all of our terrible private, silly things that we try and do to feel better, that actually maybe don鈥檛 in the end make us feel better at all. What鈥檚 your maladaptive coping strategy of the month, Seaneen?

听

SEANEEN - Well, Mark, my maladaptive coping strategy of the month鈥�

听

MARK - You sound like a parent talking to me. The only time anyone ever uses your name like that in adult life is when they want to tell you off. Anyway, please go on.

听

SEANEEN - I鈥檓 telling myself off. So, my maladaptive coping strategy is, at the moment, we all know because we all talk about it all the time, my diagnosis is of bipolar disorder, but the main thing I鈥檝e been struggling with the last few months is postnatal anxiety. And my maladaptive coping strategy is constantly googling every single thing that my child does and questioning his development. I mean everything. I鈥檓 talking about if he moves an arm, baby moved left arm, what does it mean, and wallowing in all the Google results that suggest that he is basically not developing and there鈥檚 something wrong. So, that鈥檚 what I鈥檝e been doing, I鈥檝e been googling everything, feeding my anxiety monster with, let鈥檚 face it, quite a lot of misinformation and forgetting that the algorithm for Google search results is always to put the really terrible thing at the top because that鈥檚 what people are really looking for. So, that鈥檚 been my maladaptive coping strategy of the month.

听

MARK - It sounds absolutely exhausting.

听

SEANEEN - It is absolutely exhausting. So, what鈥檚 yours?

听

MARK - My entire life鈥檚 a maladaptive coping strategy. It probably started on 25th October 1977 and it just continued from there. I don鈥檛 know. I went away for a couple of days to Canterbury last week. For anyone who鈥檚 not been to Canterbury, it鈥檚 a very small town with a very big cathedral. And if they want to use that slogan to advertise the town they鈥檙e welcome to. It鈥檚 really nice. I got away and did some reading and did some sightseeing and stuff. But I was absolutely terrified by my train journey there and back because there were so many people not wearing masks as COVID restrictions come to an end. And I was convinced I鈥檓 going to be in this youth hostel, that looked like a haunted house, I鈥檓 going to contract COVID and that鈥檚 going to be it. So, that wasn鈥檛 the maladaptive coping strategy; going away for holidays is good. I came back and I thought what I鈥檒l do is I鈥檒l do a lateral flow test to see whether I have got COVID just to set my mind at rest. And low and behold it came back with a very, very faint positive.

听

SEANEEN - Oh no.

听

MARK - So, for 48 hours I was convinced I had, through my own kind of excitement to get out and explore the world, contracted COVID-19. I would never have found this out if I hadn鈥檛 done a lateral flow test to check. Because apparently it seems I鈥檓 very anxious about COVID-19 infection.

听

SEANEEN- That鈥檚 very understandable.

听

MARK - It is understandable. But doing one test and then getting a false positive, then doing another test half an hour later and it being negative, and then another test in about two hours and that being negative as well, then going for my PCR test at the local test and trace centre, my own anxiety about COVID-19 fed my anxiety. If I鈥檇 not done a test straight after I鈥檇 had my dinner I probably wouldn鈥檛 have got a false positive. So, my maladaptive coping strategy was implementing a much more rigorous testing regime for myself than was apparently necessary.

听

SEANEEN - My phone is like my anxiety weapon, it鈥檚 like the thing that makes me pick at the anxiety scab.

听

MARK - Engage anxiety rate.

听

SEANEEN - Engage anxiety, beep.

听

MARK - Bluetooth anxiety right into your brain.

听

SEANEEN - I鈥檓 trying to use my phone as a more positive coping strategy. This month I鈥檝e also been trying to, instead of googling and being maladaptive, I鈥檓 trying to be 鈥� what鈥檚 the opposite of maladaptive?

听

MARK 鈥� Adaptive.

听

SEANEEN - Adaptive. [Laughter]

听

MARK - Well adapted.

听

SEANEEN - I鈥檓 trying to be well adapted. Yes, I鈥檓 trying to well adapt myself by using my phone as a good thing. One of the things the psychiatrist told me to do was to give my phone to Robert basically, it鈥檚 like get rid of the phone. But I鈥檓 not doing that; it鈥檚 my phone. So, basically instead of using my phone as an anxiety weapon I鈥檓 trying to use it as something that makes myself feel better. What鈥檚 actually been genuinely helpful 鈥� but some people would say may isn鈥檛 very helpful; but hey it鈥檚 my life and my phone so ha 鈥� I鈥檝e got addicted to a game on Android called Among Us. And basically you are in a spaceship and you鈥檙e a crew mate or an imposter, hard to explain, but really fun and really wholesome as well. And it鈥檚 not like a scary game where people swear at you and you get private message abuse; it鈥檚 really sweet and wholesome. So, I鈥檝e forced myself to become addicted to that. So, when I pick up my phone at one in the morning when I can鈥檛 sleep or when the baby鈥檚 woken me up, instead of googling why is my baby awake disability, or why is my baby awake terminally ill, I just open up Among Us and I try to use that instead. It鈥檚 been genuinely helpful. It鈥檚 redirecting my phone attention away from the awful stuff.

听

MARK - Sounds lovely.

听

SEANEEN - What about you, have you done anything that helps your brain at all?

听

MARK - Well, I built a miniature fish and chip shop out of cardboard.

听

SEANEEN - Okay. [Laughter] Why?

听

MARK - Let鈥檚 just stay in the podcast. I鈥檝e been building miniature things because miniature things are exciting. I鈥檝e been building little buildings out of card.

听

SEANEEN - How miniature are we taking? Like miniature fit in your hand or miniature like if you were my height, 4ft 9 you could walk in and get cardboard fish and chips?

听

MARK - Yeah, basically that鈥檚 what I鈥檝e done: I鈥檝e built a cardboard fish and chip shop, and I鈥檓 now sat outside the test and trace centre I can see through my window offering people toy fish and chips. No, it fits in the palm of my hand.

听

SEANEEN 鈥� Ah.

听

MARK - And apparently I like little miniature things because scale is really exciting. I like things that are too big and things that are too small.

听

SEANEEN - The classic comedy trope.

听

MARK - Yeah, people who order things from the internet and it turns out they鈥檙e either the size of a house or microscopic. It鈥檚 literally just to keep my hands busy. There鈥檚 something about just doing something that is ostensibly completely pointless that doesn鈥檛 refer to anything else. It鈥檚 not part of my life goals; it鈥檚 not part of the outside world; it鈥檚 got nothing to do with COVID-19. It鈥檚 just something that keeps my hand and attention busy for a period of time. And then at the end of it what I鈥檝e got is, for better or worse, a cardboard fish and chip shop. [Laughter] It鈥檚 just like playing a computer game except you don鈥檛 enjoy playing it and you end up with a physical fish and chip shop at the end.

听

[Music]

听

You can send us your maladaptive coping strategies or the stuff that you actually do do that actually does work by emailing us at ouch@bbc.co.uk.

听

SEANEEN - This has been Mentally Interesting from 麻豆约拍 Ouch. There are hundreds more disability and mental health conversations on the feed. And if you subscribe to the podcast using 麻豆约拍 Sounds or your favourite podcast service new episodes will arrive on your device like magic as soon as they鈥檙e published.

听

MARK - You can also listen by asking your smart speaker to play Ouch from 麻豆约拍 Sounds. And you can also tell your friends about us with your mouth or by any other medium by saying, 鈥渉ave you listened to Mentally Interesting from 麻豆约拍 Ouch?

听

SEANEEN - Thank you very much for listening and we鈥檒l chat to you again next month. Bye.

听

MARK - Looking forward to it. See you. Bye. Terrible at bye-byes.