麻豆约拍

This is a full transcript of 1800 Seconds on Autism: 鈥楢 Mexican wave of flapping鈥� as released on 21 May 2020 and presented by

Steward and Jamie Knight.

听

[Jingle: 1800 Seconds on Autism with Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight.]

听

ROBYN - When I was at school I was locked in toilets and people would spit in condoms and throw them at me and wrote horrible things in the bus shelter about me, and I didn鈥檛 have the insight to know if it was something that I was doing that was causing the bullying.

听

FRITZ - I鈥檇 bend one hand down to strike the heel of the other and then alternate. It sounds like鈥� [slapping sound] that.

听

ROBYN - Neurotypical people, they often talk about stuff that autistic people think is boring, you know, like the weather鈥�

听

JAMIE - Football, people鈥�

听

ROBYN - Football, people, clothes.

JAMIE - Chit chat. Social gossip.

听

ROBYN - Yeah. 鈥楲ove Island鈥�.

听

[Music]

听

ROBYN - Hello, and welcome to 1800 Seconds on Autism, a podcast about the ups and downs of autistic life. I鈥檓 Robyn Steward. Jamie Knight, my co-host, can鈥檛 record at the moment because of low energy levels and low bandwidth. He鈥檚 safe though, and even though this is officially the final episode in series two, we鈥檙e keeping in close contact about making a Coronavirus extra episode together in June. Most of today鈥檚 podcast was recorded with Jamie ages ago, so you鈥檒l hear his voice throughout the show. Let鈥檚 start with a chat about social conventions which we had before many work and leisure events were moved online. Here鈥檚 Jamie with an email from a listener called Jono.

听

JAMIE - Okay, so Jono wrote to us. He is autistic and he鈥檚 met both Robyn and me. Jono talks in the email about how it feels in awkward social situations. We鈥檇 been at an event and there was an evening thing. He says, 鈥淎fter eating I have a very clear memory of everybody moving into a lounge type area and all of the neurotypical people gathered in one group to talk about, I don鈥檛 know, probably the weather or how their journey to the event had been, while the three of us autistic people sat in a different area and talked about our experiences while enjoying the Lego and colouring books that Jamie had brought and kindly shared. It was wonderful to realise that I could just do something like that which made me comfortable, rather than having to sit and listen and behave 鈥渁ppropriately鈥�, in scare quotes, all the time. I now regularly draw patterns on graph paper to feel comfortable in similar situations, which not only helps me to stay calm, but it can look quite nice too.鈥� I can remember that. I鈥檇 had Lego and colouring books with me, and we just all kind of sat in the corner and had some auty fun whilst all the neurotypical people got on with boring stuff. It was really good, and I鈥檓 really glad that he took away that feeling of like, being around people where you鈥檙e more comfortable. If I鈥檓 honest I like socialising, and I do this with my friends a lot where I might be doing Lego or colouring, but rather than a constant back and forth conversation, they鈥檒l ask a question or will make a point, we鈥檒l stop, I鈥檒l build a few things, follow a few instructions, colour in a bit of a book, and whilst I鈥檓 doing those activities I鈥檓 thinking. Then I give a response.

Another one that I鈥檝e used before is buying a packet of biscuits, so whenever I used to have scary meetings I鈥檇 buy a packet of biscuits and I鈥檇 sit in the meeting with a packet of biscuits and every time I was asked a question and needed to give myself time to think I鈥檇 eat a biscuit. So I鈥檇 get the time of me eating the biscuit to think about what my response would be. And it seems to be completely socially appropriate to eat a biscuit every time someone asks you a question, but if I just stopped and did nothing for those ten seconds people get really weird. And I think neurotypical people hate silences, they find them really awkward, but I don鈥檛, I find them really useful. So the Lego and the colouring, it gives me something to do with the prolonged silences that I want.

听

ROBYN - Generally when we have a big meeting I don鈥檛 sit on a chair, I sit on the floor, and I have to be doing something else like drawing a picture. But people in my team have learnt, oh, it doesn鈥檛 mean Robyn鈥檚 not listening, and I respond and I鈥檓 listening intently to what鈥檚 going on, but it鈥檚 so much easier for me to listen and think if I鈥檓 doing something with my hands.

听

JAMIE - Yes.

听

ROBYN - So like the t-shirt I鈥檓 wearing, I鈥檓 wearing a purple t-shirt that says Robyn鈥檚 Rocket on it and has got a picture of a rocket, and I drew like 11 different designs for t-shirts sat on the floor during a meeting. And I contributed to the meeting fine, meanwhile drawing these designs, and then when I got home I scanned it in and it became a t-shirt.

听

JAMIE - And if somebody thinks it鈥檚 rude then I say, 鈥淲ell, what are we here for? Do you want my contributions in the best possible way? You鈥檙e paying me for my time, do you want to make the most out of that, or do you want us to follow some social conventions that aren鈥檛 useful?鈥� So a great example of it being when I was doing consultancy work I would often sit on the floor, on the basis that I couldn鈥檛 fall off the floor and chairs are often a really bad texture. So if I can sit on the floor and talk to them from there they would get better answers out of me. And then yes, if people think it鈥檚 rude I say that鈥檚 their problem. I鈥檓 pretty assertive on it these days. I do care what people think, but to some degree I鈥檓 also happy to say, 鈥淟ook, I don鈥檛 agree with you and this is my life.鈥�

听

ROBYN - Yeah, I mean鈥� This is the first time I鈥檝e ever worked in somewhere I鈥檝e felt like, oh I don鈥檛 actually have to do these things just because they鈥檙e what society expects, I can just tell people, 鈥淟ook, I really want to contribute but I can鈥檛 just sit here and keep my hands still and I can鈥檛 do that and concentrate. You get bad concentration, because so much of my concentration is going on sitting still, I can鈥檛 do it.鈥� Even when we鈥檙e sat here I don鈥檛 sit still do I?

听

JAMIE - Yeah. Well, I鈥檓 sitting here playing with the headphone cable and fiddling with coins and stuff.

听

ROBYN - And I鈥檝e got Henry.

听

JAMIE - It鈥檚 such am amazing liberating feeling when you go into accepting environments where the goal is effective communication, not social conventions. And it鈥檚 probably one of the best things I ever came across in my own mind, which was to say that I don鈥檛 care about the opinion of people who want to follow social conventions but can鈥檛 explain why. If you鈥檙e following a social convention only because it鈥檚 a convention and you can鈥檛 tell me a concrete reason why it鈥檚 important to you then actually if it鈥檚 harming me, if it鈥檚 making a problem for me then I will be assertive and say, 鈥淎ctually no, that鈥檚 not a useful social convention.鈥� Becoming assertive and defending my own boundaries took a long time because I was always taught that I was wrong. Being accepted and told, actually no, you can use this space in the way that works best for you is hugely liberating, and it鈥檚 also massively productive.

听

[Jingle: 1800 Seconds on Autism with Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight.]

听

ROBYN - Eli Brown sent us an email. Eli is 16 years old and uses they, them pronouns. They say they found the podcast helpful, having been diagnosed relatively recently. Eli has a couple of questions for us.

听

JAMIE - Eli asks if we know why it鈥檚 wrong to talk about your special interest all the time. I don鈥檛 know, Robyn, do you think it鈥檚 wrong to talk about your special interest all the time?

听

ROBYN - Eli, I think the thing is many autistic people think quite differently to neurotypical people and are often really focused on something in a way that maybe neurotypical people don鈥檛 get so focused on. So, because we鈥檙e coexisting with different neurotypes, non autistic people and autistic people, sometimes there鈥檚 a bit of a clash in terms of what is interesting. So like neurotypical people, they often talk about stuff that autistic people think is boring, you know, like the weather, football鈥�

听

JAMIE - Football, people鈥�

听

ROBYN - Football, people, clothes.

听

JAMIE - Chit chat. Social gossip.

听

ROBYN - Yeah. 鈥楲ove Island鈥�. I mean, I鈥檓 sure there鈥檚 lots of autistic people that like those things individually, but autistic people tend to be focused on a narrower amount of topics. Obviously we can鈥檛 talk about every single autistic person because everyone is different, but basically neurotypical people generally don鈥檛 just want to talk about the one topic for a long period of time that they鈥檙e not really interested in, just like we don鈥檛 really want to talk about loads of little topics that we鈥檙e not interested in, like the weather, football, etc, etc.

听

JAMIE - So, sadly there isn鈥檛 any therapy available for neurotypical people to make them more autistic so they can cope with this world, so we鈥檙e just going to put up and give them some tolerance.

听

ROBYN - But equally, there鈥檚 no therapy to make autistic people neurotypical people, and that鈥檚 a good thing, we need all the neurotypes to be together.

听

JAMIE - I鈥檓 saying this slightly tongue in cheek, because whenever somebody says to me, 鈥淥h, you know, my kid goes on about their special interest,鈥� they phrase it like a problem with their kid, versus I鈥檓 like, 鈥淲ell no, you go on about stuff I don鈥檛 care about,鈥� so it鈥檚 really a difference of perspective.

听

ROBYN - Well, what I鈥檇 suggest, Eli, is you find people that are interested in the same things you are, talk to them about those things. Being neurotypical has its pros and its cons, just as being autistic does, and we all have to find a way of living together and being tolerant of one another. So go and find the people who are your tribe if you like, the people that are interested in things that you鈥檙e interested in.

听

JAMIE - There are lots of places you can find them, so for example, when I was younger I spent a lot of time on web design forums and I suppose the equivalent now would be Facebook groups, and that鈥檚 how I actually met most of my current friendship group, was by meeting people who are into the same things I am as much as I am. So it can be a good way to build connections. Another option is if you鈥檙e really knowledgeable about something find a magazine related to it and write to the editor. Most magazines are really keen to hear from new writers, so if you can do it it can really focus a really strong interest into the right audience.

听

ROBYN - But also, bear in mind, Eli鈥檚 16, so probably find a safe adult, an adult that you trust to choose your Facebook groups, and also don鈥檛 meet random people off the internet, even if you think you know who they are, unless you鈥檝e actually met them in real life. Always take someone you trust with you who鈥檚 an adult. And make sure that you tell an adult where you鈥檙e actually going. The thing I want to say about this is that sometimes it feels really awkward to say those things, and I remember being 16 and really wanting to do things that I thought my parents aren鈥檛 really going to like this, and that is a very common thing for teenagers, but I think it鈥檚 really important to find a way of communicating with them in a way that no one is going to get shouted at or told off.

听

JAMIE - So we鈥檝e just discovered two things there. One is that Robyn has quite a rebel streak, and I think there鈥檚 some history there to discuss another day, and the second one is that Robyn gives really good internet safety advice, so I鈥檇 recommend listening to her.

听

ROBYN - Eli鈥檚 other question is how do you deal with people or situations where you want to stim or for instance wear ear defenders, but feel like people will judge you or make comments on it? Well, Eli, I think this is a very common worry of many autistic people, and what I鈥檇 say is if you鈥檙e not hurting somebody else and you鈥檙e not hurting yourself then just get on with it. Don鈥檛 worry about what other people think. However, I guess that Eli鈥檚 probably asking the question because they worry about what other people are thinking about them, like ideally autistic people should never have to suppress their stims, but when I was at school I was locked in toilets, and when I was Eli鈥檚 age people听 would spit in condoms and throw them at me and wrote horrible things on the bus shelter about me. And I can see that if I felt that something that I was doing, I didn鈥檛 have the insight to know if it was something that I was doing that was causing the bullying, but what I鈥檝e done that has worked well in a lot of schools is I鈥檝e gone and spoken to the kids about autism. And I鈥檝e talked to them about stimming, like all of the children within a school, or young people within a college, and I haven鈥檛 singled people out and gone, oh well, I鈥檓 here because this person is autistic and they鈥檙e getting bullied or anything, but I鈥檝e educated them. And in general most kids that I have taught, like the feedback from the schools is that it鈥檚 really helped their autistic people to settle in. So I would think about maybe talking to, if you鈥檙e in school or college, talking to the head of inclusion and asking whether that might be a possibility.

I mean, when I was 16 I didn鈥檛 care about street cred, but I know that there are lots of 16 year olds for whom it鈥檚 really important to just blend in and not look weird to other people, I mean not that wearing ear defenders is weird, but like you might think that other people are going to think you鈥檙e weird. So鈥�

听

JAMIE - Standing out from the crowd can be quite dangerous.

听

ROBYN - Yeah. So one thing you could try is, you can get from Boots or other pharmacies silicone clear, like transparent mouldable earplugs, they come in a circle, they look like a Werther鈥檚 Original sweet, but they鈥檙e sort of transparent.

听

JAMIE - Pro tip. Don鈥檛 put Werther鈥檚 Originals in your ears, that won鈥檛 help.

听

ROBYN - Don鈥檛 put Werther鈥檚 Originals, no.

听

JAMIE - Please buy these ear buds instead.

听

ROBYN - No. Silicon earplugs that you can mould and put into your ear and because they鈥檙e transparent it just looks like a bit of your ear. Also, loads of people wear noise cancelling headphones, like that鈥檚 a normal thing.

听

JAMIE - Ear defenders are one of those things I鈥檓 pretty interested in. I鈥檝e got about a dozen pairs, which is like 12 pairs, and they all live on the end of my bed, so they鈥檙e always ready to leave the house with me.

听

ROBYN - I tend to use earplugs or noise cancelling headphones, but I bought some ear defenders for Robyn鈥檚 Rocket and I have quite a wide selection now. Jamie, what ear defenders do you have, and how do ear defenders work please?

听

JAMIE - Okay, so you鈥檝e got two different types of ear defenders. I know it鈥檚 a podcast so I鈥檓 just going to show it to the audience, I鈥檓 just waving some ear defenders at you.

听

ROBYN - Even though our producer and exec producer are blind?

听

JAMIE - Yeah, they鈥檙e both blind as well, so you know.

听

EMMA - Can I touch, maybe?

听

JAMIE - Yeah. Here, have some to touch. So the ear defenders I鈥檝e just passed to you are some folding ones that are designed to be quite discrete and quite portable. So if you push on the bottom which is the hard bit, push that up鈥�

听

EMMA - Oh!

听

JAMIE - They fold up, which means you can fit them pretty much in a bag or a pocket quite easily, but they don鈥檛 offer that much protection. So these are really good when there鈥檚 a loud background noise, or when I need something in a hurry, because these are the ones I carry with me pretty much all of the time. So walking across a busy shopping centre they鈥檙e really good for, because you can still hear enough to be aware of your environment but they block out enough of the loud bangs, crashing shopping trolleys, that sort of thing.

听

ROBYN - I鈥檝e got some that pop open as well.

听

JAMIE - You see, yours are much beefier though. Those are really thick, so those are more like what a builder would have. They鈥檙e for taking out almost all of the noise. You wouldn鈥檛 be able to hear somebody talking to you if you were wearing those.

听

ROBYN - Well, you say that, Jamie, but I鈥檓 pretty sure I can hear you.

听

JAMIE - Is that because I鈥檓 just loud?

听

ROBYN - No, because I鈥檓 sensitive to sound anyway so it takes the edge of it but I can hear. How do ear defenders work, Jamie?

听

JAMIE - So one type are basically just bits of plastic and foam that go over your ears to stop the sound getting in, they鈥檙e passive ear defenders, and then you have active noise cancelling ear defenders or headphones, they listen to the noise around you and they generate the opposing noise. So they cancel out the noise that is around you by basically playing the opposite noise over the top of it which takes away all of the energy. So that means that active noise cancelling headphones like Beats and all the fancy brands, Bose etc, they are using a computer to eliminate the noise versus normal ear defenders which are just blocks of foam and plastic in many different shapes and sizes.

听

ROBYN - Lots of autistic people wear ear defenders to be able to cope in environments where there鈥檚 a lot of noise.

听

JAMIE - They help to make environments that aren鈥檛 necessarily designed for us in mind to be more bearable. Sometimes they鈥檙e also quite reassuring to have around, because they mean that if something does suddenly go off like a fire alarm I know that I can reduce that noise and still safely exit the building.

听

ROBYN - So I鈥檝e got these black and red ones that are the same as yours. How many decibels do these cut?

听

JAMIE - I didn鈥檛 do my research before I came today. I think these are 65 decibels, but it鈥檚 the frequency range that they cut that is the main thing. so if you鈥檙e playing 90 decibels at them, which is a loud noise, I think an aircraft taking off is 100 decibels, so if you play 90 decibels at them you would get 30 through to your ears. Thirty is about the noise of a quiet room. That won鈥檛 cover every single frequency though, so they鈥檒l mostly focus on medium frequencies and low frequencies, rather than the really high frequencies.

听

ROBYN - So low frequencies, that would be like a bus?

听

JAMIE - A bus going by, the grumble. Weirdly, that background chat noise in a supermarket or something like that, that鈥檚 quite low frequency. High frequency would be things like squeaky wheels. These big chunky ones don鈥檛 tend to be that good for like squeaky wheels or squeaky speakers, that sort of thing.

These are ear defenders, so they鈥檙e just stopping the noise from getting to your ears. For the actual noise cancelling they can be really impressive for the right scenario. So on an aircraft where the noise is very repeatable the active ones can basically completely eliminate the noise so you wouldn鈥檛 know you were on an aircraft. They are absolutely amazing. For things that are intermittent noises there鈥檚 always a little bit of a delay as the computer catches up, so for example, I sometimes wear my ear defenders in the caf茅, and in the caf茅 it can鈥檛 keep up with the noise of cutlery, with the noise of people talking, with the occasional kid shouting, but it will get rid of some of the background hum. There鈥檚 also the difference between an open and a closed strap which is to do with how they go over your head, but that鈥檚 probably a little bit too detailed and nerdy.

听

EMMA - How do you go about getting them and choosing them?

听

ROBYN - Screwfix, 麻豆约拍base, Toolstation.

听

JAMIE - Amazon.

听

ROBYN - Yeah, Amazon. There are some companies like Sensory Direct.

听

JAMIE - You鈥檙e also looking for a certain legislation, so if you look out for EN352, that is the European standard for a set of the top level of ear defender. So they鈥檙e the same ones as like what builders have. So sometimes if you鈥檙e looking on Amazon or some other online shopping place, if you put that in then it will show you everything that complies with that standard.

听

EMMA - Does what they look like matter?

听

JAMIE - To me, not so much, but I do own a set that look really discrete, because sometimes I don鈥檛 want to stick out, although 99% of the time it doesn鈥檛 really bother me. The other side of it is it can sometimes be a way to indicate to people that there is something going on. A little bit like a blind person having a cane, it can indicate to people听 around me why I might be looking a bit spaced out or a little bit confused.

听

EMMA - What would happen if you didn鈥檛 have them?

听

JAMIE - I鈥檇 run out of spoons really, really quickly. Earlier this week I was in the caf茅 in town and I didn鈥檛 have my ear defenders or my headphones with me. I normally have three hours in there before I run out of energy. I ran out of energy in 45 minutes because it was just too loud and it was just sapping all of my energy and focus. I didn鈥檛 get much done.

听

ROBYN - I think I wouldn鈥檛 be able to enjoy live music as much. I wear earplugs instead of ear defenders most of the time because I鈥檓 really into music and the earplugs that I have are designed for musicians. So, as a musician, and someone that goes to lots of gigs I rely on my earplugs to, A, protect my hearing, but also just to take the volume down a bit. Like with earplugs I find I don鈥檛 then have ringing ears the next day or anything so that鈥檚 a good thing. I never worry about how loud a gig is going to be because I know that I鈥檒l have my ear plugs. But I think also just on a sort of day to day level, like some places are quite loud and that can make me anxious, just because there鈥檚 a sort of fight or flight response, and reducing the sound or having comforting sounds to listen to can help me feel calmer.

听

JAMIE - I also tend to find that I play music via my headphones, so often the same track on repeat. Other times I quite like listening to podcasts or audiobooks. And a set of noise cancelling headphones are just better for that in a loud environment than trying to turn the volume up really high so you hear it over the other noise.

听

ROBYN - Oh yeah, when I went to Japan recently, like for the first few days I found it so overwhelming, then I remembered about listening to music over and over again, rather than listening to a whole album, just one track over and over. And so I did that for a while in my hotel room all by myself and then I felt much better.

听

EMMA - Why is repetition important?

听

ROBYN - I think as it鈥檚 predictable.

听

JAMIE - Yeah, it adds structure and predictability and a little bit of an element of control, in that I might not be able to know when the next loud noise is going to come from outside, but I know where the drums are in this track and I know that there鈥檚 a certain bit of song coming up in a moment. It enables me to predict what鈥檚 going to happen, which in turn makes me feel more in control.

听

ROBYN - But I realise that neurotypical people often don鈥檛 do that, but I find it really important to spend some time on my own in my hotel room with the lights off. [laughs]

听

EMMA - What鈥檚 your favourite music?

听

ROBYN - Well, I like loads of music, but if you like, the stim track I currently have is Donna Summer鈥檚 鈥業 Feel Love鈥�.

听

JAMIE - I tend to listen to lots of stuff that鈥檚 acappella, so people singing or just vocals, so there鈥檚 a couple of YouTube channels that I quite like. One of them does 鈥楽ound of Silence鈥� by Simon and Garfunkel, and that is pretty powerful, but it also, because it鈥檚 all singing in kind of like lyrical ways it doesn鈥檛 sound like speech. So for example I could never listen to rap much because it sounds too much like talking and I鈥檇 be trying to listen to it like a conversation and thinking about how I鈥檓 going to respond, rather than realising that it鈥檚 a one way broadcast that I don鈥檛 have to respond to.

听

EMMA - You listen to rap and you feel like you need to answer?

听

JAMIE - Yes. It can be really, really annoying. I鈥檝e heard things, it happens on the radio sometimes as well, where I鈥檒l be sat and I鈥檒l be half paying attention to something and someone on the radio will go, 鈥淲hat would you like for lunch?鈥� and I鈥檒l go, 鈥淥h, I鈥檇 really like some pizza,鈥� and then realise, oh sorry, that was just the radio. I鈥檓 really bad at telling the difference between what is information and what is a question.

听

EMMA - So if you were answering rap would you rap it?

听

JAMIE - No. I can鈥檛 rap, I just can鈥檛 rap, it sounds awful. But sometimes鈥� What鈥檚 the one鈥�? I was listening to someone like Eminem and he said something about, you know, whether or not it鈥檚 fair that his son couldn鈥檛 attend school. And I literally went, 鈥淥h, that鈥檚 downright unfair, that鈥檚 not a鈥︹�� Oh sorry, it鈥檚 a song. So yeah, it can get confusing sometimes.

听

[Jingle: You鈥檙e listening to 1800 Seconds on Autism]

听

JAMIE - We鈥檙e doing another phone out. We love these. Fritz Anderson is with us today. Hi, Fritz?

听

FRITZ - Hello there.

听

ROBYN - You sent us an email, Fritz, about stimming. It鈥檚 so brilliant that even though we鈥檙e speaking to you now Jamie鈥檚 going to read the first part of the email to us.

听

JAMIE - Oh, crikey. So the email reads, 鈥淚 can suppress my most spectacular stims in public. I can鈥檛 help jiggling my knee and then as the day goes on, talking myself up at a dyadic volume.鈥� And if I鈥檓 honest, I have no idea what that means.

听

FRITZ - Dyadic, it means face to face or as in ordinary conversation.

听

JAMIE - Oh, so it gets quite loud, as in the volume that we鈥檙e talking at now.

听

FRITZ - Yes.

听

JAMIE - Cool. Your email goes on to say. 鈥淭owards the end if agitated I鈥檒l rub my hand between my knees. My limit at the office is a particular kind of clap.鈥�

听

ROBYN - Fritz, could you describe your clapping stim please? And if it鈥檚 okay with you we鈥檙e going to join in as well.

听

FRITZ - Okay, good luck. It鈥檚 not a straight on clap. My hands are close to each other. I bend one hand down to strike the heel of the other and then alternate. It sounds like鈥� [slapping sound] that.

听

EMMA - Okay, can we hear you doing it again, Fritz? You do it on the phone just, and we鈥檒l have a listen.

听

FRITZ - Of course. [clapping]

听

JAMIE - That鈥檚 impressively fast.

听

EMMA - That鈥檚 really quick.

听

JAMIE - I saw your email this morning and I gave it a go in bed this morning, just as I was getting up and though oh, that鈥檚 cool, and then I found myself randomly doing it in the car on the way to the recording. So I think I鈥檝e picked it up. It鈥檚 very satisfying.

听

FRITZ - Yes, it鈥檚 very satisfying and probably鈥� You know, I shift my work schedule a little late by a couple of hours so that by the time my masking wears out the office is largely empty.

听

ROBYN - Masking is a phrase often used by autistic people and essentially what masking is is when you try to act in a way that other people won鈥檛 notice that you鈥檙e autistic. Would you say that鈥檚 right?

听

JAMIE - Trying to blend in and well, mask that you鈥檙e autistic and maybe be someone else for a bit that will attract less attention and negative comments.

听

ROBYN - Yeah.

听

FRITZ - Yes that鈥檚 right, and it can be something that鈥檚 moment to moment or a little longer term in suppressing or diminishing stims, and over the long term trying to keep a mental model of what normal people expect of you, hour after hour, day in and day out, it can be quite exhausting.

听

ROBYN - And if you have an explanation of your own you can email us, stim, that鈥檚 S-T-I-M, stim@bbc.co.uk.

听

EMMA - I was trying that stim as well. Is it okay for someone who鈥檚 not autistic to try someone鈥檚 stim, if you鈥檙e doing it respectfully?

听

JAMIE - I鈥檓 good with that. What do you think, Fritz?

听

FRITZ - Yeah, I don鈥檛 have a commercial interest in it. [laughter]

听

JAMIE - I love the way you phrase things.

听

EMMA - Jamie, you said you were picking it up a bit. Does that happen? Do you pick up each other鈥檚 stims? Is that a thing?

听

ROBYN - Yeah, it鈥檚 definitely a thing. I went to Russia once and I met this lovely lady, she was very nice. Bit shout out to Veta, she was incredibly lovely, and I don鈥檛 think that she normally flaps, but I flap, and so we were flapping together. So she kind of caught my stim, but if anything I think it鈥檚 kind of flattering鈥� not flattering, but it鈥檚 kind of empathy when somebody else does your stim with you if they are doing it to just enjoy stimming together.

听

EMMA - Yeah.

听

JAMIE - I鈥檝e seen stims pass through the room, which was always quite entertaining. I was doing a talk at Autistic UK and I was talking about robot dogs, and the joke was that the next slide I have a dog in a onesie and I鈥檓 like the robot dogs are really scary but if we put them in these cute onesies they won鈥檛 be as scary. And that got a giggle and then a couple of people flapped and you could almost see the flap go from the front of the room to the back of the room.

听

ROBYN - Like a Mexican wave.

听

JAMIE - A Mexican wave of flaps which was quite satisfying. And I didn鈥檛 realise that I鈥檇 flapped on stage. So I鈥檇 kind of started it and then it had just kind of spread through the room. It was quite cool.

听

EMMA - That鈥檚 absolutely brilliant. So can we say goodbye and thank you so much to Fritz Anderson for his brilliant stuff?

听

ROBYN - Thanks, Fritz.

听

JAMIE - Thanks Fritz, it鈥檚 brilliant to talk to you.

听

FRITZ - It was great fun, thank you.

听

[Music]

听

ROBYN - Well, that鈥檚 almost the end of this series of 1800 Seconds on Autism. Look out for the one extra episode in June, but me and Jamie, we鈥檝e enjoyed doing this series and we鈥檇 like to say thank you to all of you who鈥檝e contributed because 1800 Seconds on Autism wouldn鈥檛 be the same without your contributions, because as you know when you鈥檝e met one autistic person, you鈥檙e met one autistic person. Just like non autistic people, we鈥檙e all different from each other. Our email address, stim@bbc.co.uk. That鈥檚 spelt S-T-I-M, stim@bbc.co. It鈥檚 still active and we鈥檇 love to hear from you. Remember to look out for the extra episode in June. Stay safe, stay healthy, and thanks for listening to 1800 Seconds on Autism. Bye.

听