Â鶹ԼÅÄ

Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

Ìý

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.Ìý BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE Â鶹ԼÅÄ CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

Ìý

Ìý

IN TOUCH – Redundancies at Guide Dogs; Voting Equipment

TX:Ìý 30.04.2024Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

Ìý

PRODUCER:ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý BETH HEMMINGS

Ìý

Ìý

Ìý

White

Hello.Ìý Let’s start with quiz of the week.Ìý What do Norwich, York and the Isles of Scilly have in common?Ìý Answers later but a little clue – it has to do with the forthcoming elections.

Ìý

But first, the 24th April was International Guide Dogs Day, a cause for celebration you might have thought but almost certainly not at the UK organisation of Guide Dogs itself where the staff were mulling over a message from their Chief Executive which signalled a need for radical change and for some that might involve redundancy.

Ìý

We’ve had sight of that message, here’s a key passage which has been voiced by a member of our team:

Ìý

RNIB message to staff

Like so many other charities across the UK we are operating in an extremely difficult climate with soaring fixed costs and a high demand for our services.Ìý With the financial challenges we face, the need to reduce our ongoing costs has become an unexpected part of our journey.Ìý As explained on the recent all-staff call, up until 2022 our net fundraising income improved year on year but this has plateaued due to the economic situation and our fixed costs have risen considerably.Ìý If we do not act now, we will have a predicted deficit of £20 million by 2026.Ìý This is not a one-off deficit we can use our reserves to fill but a year-on-year gap between how much we spend to deliver our services and how much income we receive.Ìý This means change is also needed to increase our income and make cost savings.Ìý We have a plan for both and this will mean we can protect Guide Dogs financial future and we will be structured so we can adapt to future external challenges.

Ìý

Well, implications there obviously for staff but, of course, also for guide dog owners – present and future.Ìý Guide Dogs Chief Executive, Andrew Lennox, who wrote that message, joins me.

Ìý

Andrew, you came on the programme at the beginning of the year and I have to say your message, at that time, was pretty upbeat, did you not see this coming because certainly it seems quite a lot of your staff didn’t see it coming?

Ìý

Lennox

Oh, hello Peter, so good to be back again, although so soon in such circumstances is not really what I had planned.Ìý Can I just reassure people, as we start?Ìý At the moment we don’t have a gap in our finances, at the end of last year our spending equalled our income, the value’s all fine.Ìý It’s as we look to the future that we can see that if we don’t take steps now to make sure the roof stays in good repair, to use that analogy, the leaks would start and we don’t want to get there, we want to make sure that Guide Dogs is here for the very, very far future.

Ìý

White

But I mean let me put it to you bluntly, a £20 million gap in 2026 between income and what you need to maintain the current level of service is a very big gap, particularly when with major issues like waiting lists lengths people were hoping to see an improvement in services. ÌýI mean what is the answer?

Ìý

Lennox

So, our guide dog service is actually going to remain core to our services.Ìý As we look to the future, yes there is an increased cost base that we’re anticipating.Ìý So, in the general population we have an increase of about sort of 3-4% inflation year-on-year.Ìý Guide Dogs is seeing a roundabout 10-11% inflation generally year-on-year but in specific areas like vets’ costs, it’s gone about by almost 20% and in dog food it’s going up by roundabout 12%.Ìý So, these are significant year-on-year costs.Ìý But we don’t want to trim back our guide dog service, we actually want to continue to deliver those iconic guide dogs, for which we are known, and a breeding programme that underpins all that is back on track, we had 147 puppies born just last month and that’s continuing month-on-month we’re having that influx into the start of the process.Ìý So, as we get through to 20…

Ìý

White

So, Andrew, what are you… you’re telling me what you’re not going to trim, what are you going to trim because you’ve got to save a lot of money, what’s this going to mean in terms of staff reductions and therefore job losses for some?

Ìý

Lennox

At this moment, Peter, we’re in consultation, so that means exactly what it is, we’re in a listening mode saying we’ve got some suggestions as to how we want to take the services forward and we need to consult with staff to make sure that we’re coming up with the best conclusions.Ìý So, as we look into the future, well actually we’ve got three strands that we’re looking at.Ìý One of them is around increasing our income, so we’ve got a plan to grow our income by around about £5 million a year going forward.Ìý We also have a programme to look at cost reductions.Ìý So, what are the third-party costs that we’re doing that we could trim or are there better deals that we could have by working with other charities to get more bang for our buck, as it were, that’s about another £5 million.Ìý So, between those two it’s about half of the gap.Ìý The rest of the gap, around about £10 million, we anticipate will come from changes to our staff base.Ìý At this moment, I suppose would indicate around about an 8% change in our staffing.Ìý So, we’re talking around about 160 colleagues that potentially would be facing redundancy within 2024.Ìý We’re hoping, through the consultation process, that we’re going to be able to mitigate much of that or come up with other ideas but that’s the whole purpose of the consultation.

Ìý

White

Losing a job is tough for anyone, for visually impaired people getting another job, as all the statistics will tell us, is even harder.Ìý Will you be taking this into consideration when deciding what jobs should go because some already think that the proportion of visual impaired people within the organisation is too low, far from making it lower?

Ìý

Lennox

Yeah and I would agree with you that actually having lived experience with the organisation is one of the foundation blocks for ourselves, to be able to have that experience on hand to help guide our services for the future.Ìý I cannot give any categoric assurances about which roles will and won’t go within the organisation that has to be equitable for all employees but I do want to assure people that actually going forward the voice of lived experiences is absolutely central to what we’re doing.Ìý In fact, we’re actually increasing one of the areas of our organisation, we’re looking to put more lived experience people within our direct service provision to be able to support people who are using our vision rehabilitation services.Ìý So, these are kind of the lived experience officers that we had before that we’re actually reintroducing that in a much greater way to have that customer voice.

Ìý

White

But again, Andrew, I quite understand why you’re doing it but you’re telling me what you’re not going to cut but you are going to cut jobs, where are you going to cut them, are you going to cut them in trainers, are you going to cut managers, is it back staff, where are you going to lose these jobs?

Ìý

Lennox

While we’re in the consultation phase it wouldn’t be appropriate for me to say it’s going to be that area or that area.Ìý There is a change programme that covers the whole of the organisation where we’re looking at services that will potentially may not continue services that will.Ìý The one area that we are looking to make a significant change is within our My Sighted Guide service.Ìý Whilst this isn’t directly related to the change programme in terms of the redundancies or potential redundancies that may come of it and last week we shared the decision that we are actually going to be closing that service.Ìý But the My Sighted Guide service, whilst it supports individuals, what we actually are looking to do is move it from being a My Sighted Guide service to being a community sighted guide service, where we’re actually able to go out and help in the community, for organisations and locations, to have sighted guide training, so they can actually support more people with a visual impairment when they’re going out.

Ìý

White

But that does raise the issue of some of the extra things you’re doing away from core guide dogs.Ìý In that interview I did with you at the beginning of the year, I suggested to you that some guide dog owners felt that the organisation should concentrate on its core and traditional function, what it says on the tin in other words, and that other activities, such as, for example, children’s services, rehab, was the task of other charities perhaps, the government, local authorities.Ìý Now money spent on children services – £10 million – rehabilitation, just under £10 million, the gap between income and amount needed £20 million, is it naïve to suggest that there’s a saving there which would solve your problem?

Ìý

Lennox

I wouldn’t necessarily use the word naïve in that particularly instance, I think it’s a little bit more complex than that.

Ìý

White

The figures add up though.

Ìý

Lennox

Oh, the figures do… they add up quite conveniently, when you look at the accounts.Ìý But actually, if we look at the charitable purposes of Guide Dogs, yes, it is to provide guide dogs to people and also to train them but there’s also one of the pieces within our charter is actually to provide support to the wider community.Ìý So, not everyone is going to be suited to be having a guide dog and I don’t think it’s right that we actually should set those people aside and say actually we’re not going to do anything to help them, especially as these services are not supported by statutory requirement.Ìý So, I think it would be the wrong move for us, as Guide Dogs, to be able to say okay, we’re going to stop doing the vision rehabilitation services because that would also mean that everybody on our waiting list would have no support.Ìý With our children and young people, they are also our potential future guide dog users and if we can give them a better start in life, then I think that’s a very valid thing to do.

Ìý

White

But as I keep saying, something has to go.

Ìý

Lennox

Yes.

Ìý

White

And you’re not going to tell me anymore about what that’s going to be.

Ìý

Lennox

We want to listen to the staff about what their thoughts are but actually right now isn’t the right time.Ìý But what I would say is actually when we get to the end of the consultation process then that would be the right time for me to come back on to your programme and talk with you and the listeners about the changes that we have put in place.

Ìý

White

How confident are you, Andrew, under the circumstances that you’ve explained, that you can solve this or are you regretting you took the job in the first place?

Ìý

Lennox

Oh, let me answer that second one.Ìý No, I love my job every day, I don’t enjoy these particular elements of it but when I get up in the morning I think about the mission that’s in front of us and the things that we have to do, the people we support.

Ìý

White

Answer the first part – are you confident you can actually solve this problem.

Ìý

Lennox

So, in terms of that, yes, I am very confident.Ìý I guess if we split it into two areas.Ìý There’s making sure that we’re fit for the future, that was a piece of work that was actually going on before I joined the organisation.Ìý Since I’ve joined and we’ve been faced with the increasing cost base, especially within the veterinary and the food areas, when we’re looking at that we’ve had to overlay and say okay, what can we do to make sure we can afford that future.Ìý So, I’m very confident that we’ll be both fit for the future, in terms of the scope and scale of the organisation but also, fit for the future in terms of having a robust financial base to be able to work from.Ìý So, in both areas I’m very confident.

Ìý

White

Andrew Lennox, thank you very much indeed.

Ìý

Others who may be wondering how wise it is to take the job are those standing in this week’s various elections.Ìý But we’re more interested in how easy it is for visually impaired people to cast their votes independently and in secret.Ìý And one exciting development which is being tried out in various parts of the country this week is the McGonagle Reader, which is an audio-based voting system.Ìý Well, we’ll tell you where it’s available in a moment but first of all, I’ve been given a sneak preview of how it works by Duncan Johnson, from the Pakflatt company that designed it.

Ìý

Johnson

The device is an overlay that sits on top of the ballot paper.Ìý It has a USB, which is fitted with an audio conversion of the details that appear on the ballot paper, as they appear on the ballot paper.Ìý On the top of the device is a triangular button with an embossed pip on it.

Ìý

White

Yeah, I’ve found that, right.

Ìý

Johnson

That relates to the information on the header of the ballot paper.

Ìý

Pakflatt audio

Election of councillors to any town city council.Ìý Vote for no more than three candidates by putting a cross in the box next to each of your choices.Ìý There are seven candidates in this election.Ìý Their names are:Ìý Adedeji, Lisa.

Ìý

Johnson

Underneath the triangular button are a series of circular buttons which have got domes on them and they are placed in line with the candidates as they appear on the ballot paper.Ìý At the right-hand side of the device is a moulded window and door system, the doors fold back to the left allowing the voting space for where the marker’s going to go.Ìý Once the door is folded back you can confirm that you’ve opened the correct door by pressing down on the end of the door.

Ìý

White

So, hang on.Ìý Click that one back…

Ìý

Pakflatt audio
Choudry, Suresh, the Banana Party.

Ìý

Johnson

You can then navigate across to the right to that space, make the mark using the pencil that’s found at the top of the device.

Ìý

White

Okay, I’ve got it.

Ìý

Johnson

Once you are happy that you’ve made the relevant number of marks, you can then confirm the candidates you’ve marked for because the doors are open, you can then close the doors.

Ìý

White

There we are, it’s clicked shut.

Ìý

Johnson

Okay, you’ve closed the door so nobody is able to see from the device that you’ve marked any candidates whatsoever.Ìý You can then lift the device up and peel the ballot paper off the back of the device.Ìý It’s held in place by a post-it note grade of adhesive so there’s no residue or anything to show that you have used the device to help you with the voting.

Ìý

White

Right, that’s great, so, you can do it all yourself basically?

Ìý

Johnson

Totally independently.

Ìý

White

Duncan, that’s great, thank you very much indeed.

Ìý

Patrick McGonagle, you led the team that came up with this piece of equipment.Ìý Just explain the thinking behind it.

Ìý

McGonagle

The thing that was sought in the early days of the TVD was that a blind person could vote independently and in secret but the Rachael Andrews court case in May 2019 proved that that wasn’t possible so we set about developing this product so that any person who’s blind or partially sighted could effectively operate the thing entirely by themselves without any outsider being involved.Ìý And we’ve listened very carefully to the blind community and one of the things that was really difficult was alerting yourself to who the candidate was and then making a mark in the right place.Ìý In the McGonagle Reader you have the door which will tell who the candidate is and the window to make the mark, cheek by jowl if you like, they’re beside one another and it’s almost impossible not to make the mark in the right place.Ìý That was one of the key challenges.Ìý I think it was Rachael Andrews who made the point that sometimes when I get home I have nagging doubts in my head, I don’t know whether the pencil worked, I don’t know whether I held it the right way round, so that’s why we decided to move to a graphic pencil, which means it doesn’t really matter if the lead’s broken, the pencil frame will still make the mark.Ìý We’ve put on the tactile finger, thumb, piece, so you know that the pencil’s the right way up.

Ìý

White

Can you really imagine this being available in every polling station in the country on election night?

Ìý

McGonagle

Well, there’s no reason why it shouldn’t be and if I reflect on the Elections Act of 2022, the act points out, quite clearly, that the endeavour is to enable every blind person to vote independently and in secret.Ìý And based on the trials that were conducted in Norfolk by the RNIB, at the tail end of last year, I’m reliably informed that their findings that McGonagle Reader was really the only device that came close to affording that potential.

Ìý

White

It’s just a pity that councils are going broke then, isn’t it?

Ìý

McGonagle

Well, you know, elections are regarded as fairly important and historically, in my memory, funding has always been made available.

Ìý

White

So, you’re saying this is a question of people’s rights, it’s a question of equality?

Ìý

McGonagle

If we want to comply with the Elections Act for 2022, we must make it possible for not only blind and partially sighted but also people with cognitive disabilities, who have the same kinds of difficulty, this will help them as well.

Ìý

White

Patrick McGonagle.

Ìý

Well, the place which will be using the machines in these elections are South Norfolk and Broadlands, York, Great Yarmouth, Norwich and the Isles of Scilly – there’s our quiz answer for you.Ìý And it looks as if the most extensive use will be in Bristol.Ìý Well, I’m joined, on the line, by senor electoral services officer for Bristol Matt de-Berger.Ìý Matt, first of all, give us a sense of the extent to which these audio machines are going to be available across the city.

Ìý

de-Berger

We have about 30 of these devices, 25 of which will be available across the city in 10 areas.Ìý But we also have five devices available to be pre-booked ahead of polling day on Thursday, so we can try and get them to polling stations with the staff that we’ve got roaming around the city for the day.

Ìý

White

What’s inspired you to embrace this device so enthusiastically?

Ìý

de-Berger

We feel that everyone should have the opportunity to vote in secret and independently and obviously this technology allows them to do that, as well as it complements the existing support that we have at our polling stations, such as staff to be able to assist in marking your ballot paper, the braille tactile voting device that are already in our polling stations.

Ìý

White

I’m just interested how easy you think it’ll be for people to master them; would they be able to, do you think, look at it, see how it works and cast their vote within a reasonable timescale?

Ìý

de-Berger

Yeah, we’ve got our polling station inspectors who are trained on these devices, they’ll be there with the elector to set up the device, put the relevant ballot paper into the device.Ìý In Bristol we have two elections going on – the Police Crime Commissioner and our local councillors – so we want to make sure we get the right ballot paper in that.Ìý So, those polling station inspectors and station staff will be there to assist.

Ìý

White

Matt de-Berger thank you very much for joining us.

Ìý

And if you’d like to find out whether the device could be available in your area for the upcoming General Election well you contact the RNIB who will have information on that.

Ìý

And just to remind people that for these local elections, wherever you’re voting, there should also be templates available where you can cast your vote using tactile methods and under the recent Elections Act, you’re entitled to help in the polling booth itself by being accompanied by anyone of your choice, as long as they’re over 18, and that includes polling station staff themselves.

Ìý

That’s all for today.Ìý We want to hear your reactions to what you’ve heard in the programme, you can email intouch@bbc.co.uk, leave your voice messages on 0161 8361338 or you can go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch.

Ìý

From me, Peter white, producer Beth Hemmings and studio manager Mitchell Goodall, goodbye.