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IN TOUCH – Guide Dogs Q&A

TX:Ìý 13.09.2023Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening.Ìý Last week we concentrated on a relatively new method of training guide dogs called STEP – standardised training for excellent partnerships that stands for.Ìý It puts the emphasis on reward and reinforcement rather than reprimand and its advocates say that it’s far more in line with today’s societal attitudes towards animals and that it works.Ìý Others, amongst them some guide dog owners, argue that in the practical world of using a dog to get around safely it has some significant drawbacks.

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At the end of last week’s programme, on the STEP method, I asked for your responses and in particular, your questions to be put directly to the Guide Dogs organisation.Ìý The response has been by far the largest that we’ve had to a programme this year, over 30 well considered questions and experiences, so thank you very much for all of those.Ìý There’s no way we’re going to fit them all in but what we have tried to do is pick questioners whose point represents the majority of your concerns, not just on STEP but on other major issues such as waiting lists for replacement dogs and eligibility.

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Joining us to field those questions is Pete Osborne, he is Chief Operations Officer at Guide Dogs.Ìý So, let’s dive straight in with your questions.

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Alan Dudley is from Edinburgh and yours is very much, Alan, about the issue of controlling your dog that has been trained using the STEP method, so go ahead.

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Dudley

I think I prefer to call it influencing because controlling sounds sort of authoritarian.Ìý I got my first dog in 1971 and trained with my last dog in 2018 and from a Webinar that I heard from Guide Dogs they were saying they want guide dogs to control their own behaviour rather than have guide dog owners do it for them.Ìý And I can see there’s a lot of sense in that. ÌýBut what I am worried about is if somehow something goes wrong when you’re working, when you’re training, and you’re not quite sure what to do and the dog doesn’t behave as expected or hope, not because it’s a bad dog or anything but just because the circumstances are difficult.Ìý A few years ago, my dog Foster, a big German Shepherd and I [indistinct word] across a fire in some parkland, I had to retrace my steps and had to keep both of us calm while we did that.Ìý He worked ever so well given the fact that we both wanted to get the hell out of there.

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White

Pete Osborne, what do you say to that?Ìý I mean Alan’s point is you don’t have to be being cross with the dog or anything but you do have to be firm and very clear and perhaps the implication is that anything that sounds even faintly like a reprimand is not approved of?

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Osborne

Yes, so first and foremost I would say it’s absolutely crucial that as guide dog owners we keep ourselves safe and there will be situations where you need to do that and we completely accept that.Ìý As a guide dog owner myself, I’ve done that fairly regularly and that’s inevitable.Ìý What I would say is that it’s a bit of misconception that you can never say no to your dog and that isn’t the case, even with the STEP methodology you absolutely can and there needs to be situations where you will react firmly.Ìý There’s a considerable difference, if you like, between how we teach our dogs to get things right first time and how we have to react to situations in the here and now and it’s most important that when the situation is with you and you need to react that you do so in a way that keeps you and your dog safe.

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White

Alan, to what extent does that satisfy you, given that you’ve had a lot of dogs over a lot of years?

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Dudley

I’m reassured up to a point, I think, but I’m also worried about the aspect of whether in given rewards to dogs when they’re taking you to kerbs and things, you’ve spoilt the idea that dogs and guide dog owners work together because they like being with one another and their relationship means that things go well.

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Osborne

And indeed I agree but let’s be clear, we’ve all rewarded our dogs for many, many years, you know, praise – good boy, well done – is a reward to our dogs, it doesn’t necessarily need to be a food reward, many of our dogs will and certainly do continue to respond very nicely to praise.Ìý So, I agree, as routes become familiar and as you expand the work that you are doing with your dog, then it’s quite likely that the nature of reward will change and that bond between your dog sometimes the good boy, well done reward is just enough for your dog to actually recognise that the right thing has happened.

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White

Alan, thanks very much for putting our first question.Ìý Our next caller is not a guide dog owner but she is a professional dog behaviourist and trainer who agrees wholeheartedly with the STEP method, in principle, but she does have reservations about how it seems to be being applied to guide dogs.Ìý Charlotte Kasner what is your main point and to what question does it lead?

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Kasner

I had four incidents with my previous dog, two of them potentially fatal where guide dogs had lunged and barked at my dog from a distance.Ìý And on one occasion and guide dog owner could have been pulled on to a tube line and on the other across a major road.Ìý And I was very worried about the training.Ìý Now that I understand that they used a mix of positive punishment and positive reward I understand why that happened.Ìý What concerns me now, in the changeover to STEP and with guide dogs only have, I believe, five weeks training, is that that may continue, particularly if there’s not a wholehearted commitment to doing positive reinforcement and an understanding of it.

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White

Let me go to Pete.Ìý First of all, is it five weeks training?

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Osborne

No, the training is substantially longer than that and indeed…

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Kasner

Not for the dogs, I mean for the guide dog owners.

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Osborne

For the guide dog owner, yeah.Ìý I mean for the guide dog partnership it’s at least five weeks training but also there’s ongoing support for people and we have a programme throughout the first year, in particular, where we will continue to visit people and support people throughout.Ìý I would agree with you, actually dog distraction, in a sense, is one of the biggest challenges that guide dog owners face.Ìý One of the things that we’re looking at through the Puppy Raising for Excellent Partnerships programme is how we set our dogs up for success.Ìý And I absolutely agree with you, it’s imperative that we get the balance of that right, so that actually when people experience the guide dog partnership, they really should not be experiencing high levels of dog distraction because throughout the training programme we have addressed that particular issue.

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White

We have actually had some volunteers saying that maybe not enough support is still being given to the puppy raisers and I think the implication, if I’ve understood some of these emails correctly, is that the training in a sort of firm sense isn’t really happening right from the beginning.

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Osborne

What I’m very relieved about is that we’ve increased the number of specialists who are actually working with our puppy raisers.Ìý We have professionals who are able to get in and support our puppy raisers.

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White

So, Charlotte, are you therefore, to some extent, reassured?

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Kasner

I am very much so, and I’m very interested to see how this actually plays out.Ìý As it happens, I have an acquaintance locally who’s just got a new guide dog and she’s torn strips off me about the STEP programme, not realising that’s the way that I train so I can hopefully watch this in action because she is certainly struggling with distractions.Ìý But I think it’s a major step forward for canine welfare.

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White

Now we did invite people to raise other issues.Ìý Guide dog owners won’t be surprised to know that waiting lists, particularly for those who need a dog replacing due to retirement or health reasons, was very high on the list and we’ve already heard it referred to.Ìý Derek Howey is waiting for his seventh dog, never having had to wait in the past for more than two months, he says, to replace any of the previous six but he’s now worried and depressed.Ìý He emails:

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Howey – email

Life without a guide dog ain’t easy.Ìý For me working with a white cane has had forward, slow and stop, so much so that I too frequently just can’t be bothered even making the effort especially coping with the hassles of clattering into and falling over pavement obstacles etc.Ìý Am I going to be kept hanging on for what seems like forever and a day for dog number seven?Ìý Do I need to consider moving to a remote Scottish island where I will no longer need a dog?Ìý And, by the way, that’s a serious question and an option which I am considering, that’s how bad it’s got for me.Ìý The implications of doglessness are potentially huge – social isolation, weight gain and deterioration in physical and mental health are just some of the negative aspects caused by being stuck inside on your own for long periods.

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White

We thought we needed that picture of what it’s like for people who are waiting for a dog, who’ve been used to having one and I suspect Derek speaks for quite a lot of people.Ìý Pete Osborne, we’ve talked about waiting lists before on this programme, often people waiting for years, what would you say to Derek and people like him?

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Osborne

Two issues.Ìý First of all, I’d like to recognise those people that have recently lost a dog, it’s very difficult, it’s the most traumatic experience imaginable.Ìý What I would say about the waiting lists is we are doing everything possible to recover the situation and I’m afraid it takes time.Ìý I apologise to people who are having to wait for a long time, it’s a consequence of the pandemic but also the number of technical staff that we’ve got to deliver the partnerships that we need to deliver and we’re trying to recover on both fronts.Ìý We’re now breeding more than 130 dogs per month and we’re back up to levels of dogs in training that we saw prior to pandemic and levels of success that we also saw prior to the pandemic.

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White

Well, you see, I think people bristle a bit when you talk about the pandemic because so many other organisations quote the pandemic as the reason for all sorts of things.Ìý And Derek says that things like retirement among trainers, which was given last week as one of the reasons for the problems and the transition period while trainers get used to new methods, he says, they should have been anticipated and factored in and he’s right, isn’t he?

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Osborne

Arguably we could have done more to achieve that but one of the things we really have struggled with is bringing on the required number of technical staff to get us to the levels that we need to be at.Ìý We now have a wonderful academy, which is a completely different approach, we have more than 70 staff in training at present as guide dog trainers or mobility specialists and we’re bringing those staff through but it does take time for us to recover to a level that we need to be at in order to reach as many people as are waiting for a guide dog.

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White

But I mean the numbers have been going down of successful partnerships and were going down before the pandemic began.

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Osborne

The numbers that we are seeing of those people waiting for a guide dog is absolutely not where we want to be and I will personally not rest until we’re in a much better place than we are at the moment.Ìý We’ll do everything possible to bring ourselves back on track.

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White

Right.Ìý I want to bring in Paul Nicholls who has a couple of suggestions about things you could do to speed up the whole business of waiting lists and time waiting.Ìý Paul, the floor is yours.

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Nicholls

Okay, right, well, my first point is:Ìý I wonder why it takes so long for reapplication process for replacement dogs.Ìý It’s unnecessarily complicated.Ìý My last dog was withdrawn on 14th June, by mutual agreement, I must say, my reapplication still hasn’t been done.Ìý Guide Dogs insist on sending out two members of staff to do three routes with me to prove that I know three routes in an area that I’ve lived in for over 40 years, where all my dogs have lived, they just used to fill in a form, we didn’t have to prove that we knew three routes.

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White

And you would argue that you are familiar to the Guide Dogs organisation because you’ve had other dogs?

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Nicholls

Well, I’ve had numerous aftercare visits, it’s a complete waste of staff time.Ìý I can understand why it’s done with new applicants.

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White

Let’s get an answer to that.Ìý Why does there have to be this long process and other people have mentioned it – Kevin Lloyd is another guide dog owner who mentioned this very thing – what’s the answer to that Pete?

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Osborne

There are actually four elements to the process at the moment.Ìý The first and second conversation, first mobility assessment and guide dog assessment and that is something we’re looking to address going forwards, specifically for reapplicants, although we’ve not reached a conclusion on that right now.Ìý What I would say is mobility assessments and guide dog assessment has actually been part of the process for a considerable length of time.Ìý And congratulations on keeping your route knowledge up-to-date, that is not the case for all guide dog owners.Ìý And what we are seeing at the moment, actually, is a reduction in the successful qualifications from people on class, due in part to people not necessarily having the knowledge that they need of the routes that they’re doing, some of which has actually changed as a result of the environmental changes, possibly as part of the pandemic but for other reasons.

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White

But if it becomes obvious that somebody like Paul is experienced and knows what he’s doing and he’s well known to the organisation, can’t there be some more flexibility?

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Osborne

I agree we need to make more rapid progress with that and I promise that’s something we’ll take away and look at.

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White

Alright.Ìý Second point Paul.

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Nicholls

Isn’t there a case to be made for actually closing, temporarily closing, the list for new applicants until the dog supply has reached a point where we have to wait weeks and months, rather than months and years?

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Osborne

Whilst there is a case for doing that, we’ve decided not to do that at…

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White

Have you considered it?

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Osborne

Yes, we have considered that.Ìý And we have decided not to do that at this stage because we think it’s really important for us to be able to reach out to people and support people in different ways.Ìý So, our vision rehabilitation specialists – and we’ve been rapidly recruiting those people over recent years as well – who are able to go out and support people, so give people the base level skills that they might need to then progress to guide dog ownership subsequently if that’s what’s needed.

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White

Okay, I’m going to move on, I’m sure you’ve got more you’d love to ask Paul.Ìý I want to end, though, with a couple of questions about eligibility.Ìý Who gets priority when it comes to their place on a waiting list.Ìý [Indistinct name] you got in touch with us about this, what was the point you wanted to make?

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Guide Dog owner

I’m on dog number five and I waited four years for her.Ìý I’m severely sight impaired and what I’d like to know – why we are having to wait so long for a dog.Ìý Is it because A. the dogs are not confident or good enough to take a visually impaired person who has no sight, because that’s what I’ve been told by the trainers or B. is it something wrong with the breeding programme.

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White

So, you’re saying you think, at the moment, that totally or almost totally blind people are having to wait longer…

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Guide Dog owner

Yes.

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White

… can I also say Sandy Bannister’s another example of someone who asked a very similar question about eligibility and also asked whether there was any statistical information about, you know, the numbers of totally blind people getting dogs.

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Osborne

Yeah, I’m very sorry if people are getting that impression because it’s not something that we can evidence and indeed the way in which we’re training our dogs very much includes all of the requirements that anybody might need, including somebody with limited or no vision.Ìý In fact, a lot of the training actually takes place, particularly the later stages of the training, in blindfold or mind folds so that we can actually get this absolutely right.Ìý Though I’m conscious that it is a perception…

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White

You are hearing this, I take it, from what you say.

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Osborne

Yeah, we do hear this on occasions.Ìý I can find no evidence to support it, we will continue to be very aware of it.Ìý And indeed, the matching process that takes place is very much on the basis that it’s more complex than someone’s vision, it’s someone’s family situation, their work situation, the speed at which they walk, you know, etc. etc., so their vision or someone’s vision is a small part of the equation and certainly not the whole part.Ìý Really the thing we’re trying to assess is whether a guide dog will be of significant benefit to the individual in enabling their independence.

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White

Okay.Ìý Another point on eligibility.Ìý Irene Randall asked us why the guide dog waiting list wasn’t held nationally rather than locally, so that some people who’ve been on the waiting list longest and how were prepared to travel to get a dog would get fairer treatment.

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Osborne

In certain circumstances where people have been waiting a very long time, we will take a national position.Ìý But you can only imagine the complexities, the logistics of potentially moving dogs around the country, depending on where the match takes place and making sure that we’ve got available staff that understand how to progress that partnership, that would be quite difficult to do.

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White

I think her point was though if people are prepared to travel to go to the area where there is a dog available for training, if the waiting list is based on the regions, then they wouldn’t get that opportunity would they?

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Osborne

That may be true in some cases.Ìý Around 70% of the training that we do at the moment starts residentially.Ìý So, what we wouldn’t want to do is disadvantage those people either.Ìý Where necessary we will move dogs around the country in order to get the best possible match because ultimately, it’s the success of that match and the success of the partnership in subsequent years that is actually what we’re all about.Ìý We want to make sure these partnerships stay together and that they support people like us throughout their whole life.

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White

One final question – we’ve had all the questions that we’re having from listeners but is there a timescale for getting this fixed, particularly waiting lists and raising the potential of successful partnerships because that is still lower than you would like, isn’t it, somewhere around 60%, when it was 80%?

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Osborne

Yeah, we’ve typically seen in training success at around 70% or working back towards that, that’s a gradual improvement.Ìý This is going to take time.Ìý A huge challenge we have is in volunteering, particularly for fosterers but I promise we’ll be doing everything possible, including recruiting and training more technical staff to get us back to the situation that we all want to be in.

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White

Do you have a target date?

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Osborne

No, I’m not going to give you a target date because it’s a gradual approach and it’ll take some time for us to get there.

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White

Pete Osborne, thank you very much for coming on and answering all those questions.Ìý People may still have their doubts about one thing and another but we’ve done our best to cover as much ground as we can.Ìý And thank you all of those who took the trouble to contact us about it.

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That’s all for today.Ìý If you want to respond to anything you’ve just heard or indeed anything else you’d like us to tackle on the programme, you can email intouch@bbc.co.uk or leave your voice message on 0161 8361338.Ìý Meanwhile from me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio managers Sue Stonestreet and Liam Juniper, goodbye.