Â鶹ԼÅÄ

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.Ìý BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE Â鶹ԼÅÄ CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

Ìý

Ìý

IN TOUCH – Has the World Become More or Less Challenging for Visually Impaired People?

TX:Ìý 28.03.2023Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

Ìý

PRODUCER:ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý BETH HEMMINGS

Ìý

Ìý

Ìý

White

Good evening.Ìý We’ve set ourselves a tough question this week:Ìý Is it harder or easier to be blind in today’s world?Ìý It’s a tough question because it depends on so many variables – how old you are, how much or how little you can see, whether you have a job, how well you cope with technology, whether you find change an exciting challenge or a constant irritant.Ìý So, if it is so tough, why are we asking it?Ìý Well, partly, so, that we can draw attention to the things that are good and suggest ways of improving what people say is bad and partly because you, our listeners, are asking us.Ìý It’s cropping up increasingly in items we cover, your emails and conversations we’re having with a range of visually impaired people.Ìý Here are just some of the things you’ve been telling us:

Ìý

Jill Kaye

My 92-year-old mother-in-law has done brilliantly with some technology.Ìý She uses a speaking microwave and watch and for the past few years a smart speaker.Ìý She’s never in her life used a computer keyboard or even a typewriter keyboard but with the smart speaker she can ask it questions about history, how to spell words and where certain shops are.Ìý She has no idea that she’s actually browsing the internet.

Ìý

White

That from Jill Kaye.Ìý And, by way of contrast, this from 24-year-old Angelique:

Ìý

Angelique

I’m really worried about the society we’re living in, it makes me feel as though I was born into the wrong generation.Ìý It’s almost impossible to do anything without being asked to go online, whether it be applying for jobs or leaving the country.Ìý I think this digital obsession in technology has gone too far.

Ìý

White

And there’ll be more of your views throughout the programme.Ìý But a strong suggestion there that this is not just about older people resisting change and younger people embracing it.Ìý While technology is a crucial element in this programme, it’s as much about how society has decided to use it as it is about the things it’s enabled us to do, which we couldn’t do before.Ìý We’ve invited along a group of three people who span the generations, have done or do a varied range of jobs and who have a widespread of views.

Ìý

Matt Johnson specialises in IT and data law.Ìý Roshni Hafeez is a VAT specialist with HMRC.Ìý And Mike Lambert was a lecturer in further education and a disability coordinator.

Ìý

Just to put some flesh on the bones of this debate, I’d like to start by asking you all to pick one thing which makes your life much easier now and one that makes it harder.Ìý Mike Lambert, I’m going to start with you.

Ìý

Lambert

Well, I think, computers and technology make it easier in the way that, for example, I can walkaround now with a dozen books on a device in my pocket, I can do emails, I can do internet research and all these things were not possible earlier in my life.Ìý What makes it difficult?Ìý I come back to computers.Ìý I think the number of flat screens at checkouts that have now been computerised in ways that really challenge my [indistinct word].

Ìý

White

Okay, so computers good, computers bad, basically.Ìý Roshni, what about you?

Ìý

Hafeez

Well, in some ways, seconding some of the things that Mike said there.Ìý So, I would definitely say that screenreaders on computers have been a massive gamechanger in terms of how the technology has advanced in my lifetime and the doors that that has opened to leisure, education and training.Ìý In terms of the negative, undoubtedly touchscreens.

Ìý

White

Okay.Ìý Matt?

Ìý

Johnson

I would say one thing that has been particularly helpful in terms of accessibility is the increased ubiquity of homeworking.Ìý You’re not dealing with 8.00 am commuters on the tube or the bus line or struggling with the 5.30 pm pub crowd.

Ìý

White

And the thing you hate most or which has done least to help you?

Ìý

Johnson

I’m going to have to agree with Roshni here, I’m going to have to say it is touchscreens.Ìý I don’t necessarily understand why everything from toasters to banks of lifts need to be touchscreen accessible but it is genuinely the thing that causes me the most concern in terms of how blind people interface with the world around them.

Ìý

White

Right.Ìý Just in day-to-day things, Mike, I mean, one of the things I noticed you said, when we asked you about things like this, is you’ve practicality given up dealing with money.

Ìý

Lambert

Yeah, not because I’ve gone into a cashless situation, I might add.Ìý I mean most of my life I did banking myself, I would go into a branch, speak to a person, take money out.Ìý I got braille statements that I could check.Ìý And by slow steps, started with the closure of bank branches and some of my own hesitancy about using machines, it’s evolved into a situation now where my wife does all the banking and just hands me lumps of cash.Ìý So, I’ve kind of…

Ìý

White

I wish my wife would hand me lumps of cash, but still, go on.

Ìý

Lambert

It’s my money.Ìý Yeah, I’ve virtually checked out of doing my own banking.Ìý I think there’s an element of just not following the chase, a feeling – a situation accelerating away from me and having enough other things to deal with.

Ìý

White

Okay, well look, just to concentrate on banks for a moment.Ìý There is surely no doubt that bank policies over the past decade has definitely favoured the technologically sophisticated.Ìý Time was, as Mike said, when you could visit your local bank, talk to your bank manager, probably somebody you knew quite well, but not anymore.Ìý Over the past decade most UK banks have closed large numbers of their branches.Ìý According to recent figures from consumer protection company, Which, banks and building societies have closed or scheduled for closure nearly five and a half thousand of them.Ìý They cite Barclays as the biggest individual bank to close most of them, just over 1,000 by the end of 2023.Ìý HSBC is leading the pack of closures this year with another 114 scheduled.Ìý We did invite a number of banks to take part in this discussion, they all either didn’t reply or declined our invitation.Ìý

Ìý

So, to discuss some of these issues we’re joined by Andy Donald, who is Director of Communications and Public Affairs at UK Finance, which represents the banking industry.

Ìý

Andy, first of all, we know there are some sophisticated ways of helping tech savvy visually impaired customers but the overall effect of some of these changes is surely depersonalisation, you know, the absence of someone trustworthy and helpful to talk to.Ìý That’s unarguable, isn’t it?

Ìý

Donald

I think what’s happened is that the way people interact with their bank has definitely changed over time and you’re right, there are fewer branches than there were before and more people are doing online banking.Ìý But I mean at its heart banking is a customer service business.Ìý Banks do want to help.Ìý What I’ve discovered since speaking to our members is that they don’t always know a customer’s individual circumstances and so it’s really helpful if people can get in touch with their bank, explain what their particular needs are.

Ìý

White

But talking to your bank, Andy, is not that easy.Ìý I mean some big banks are indeed operating their telephone services but certainly on mine, which is HSBC, they spend a lot of time telling me how I’d be much better off banking online before going on to tell me that as there is a great deal of demand for their services there’ll be a long wait before leaving me for what seems like hours to listen to some dreary and badly recorded music.Ìý Wouldn’t it be more honest to say, because we’re not employing enough people as agents, you’ll have to wait a long time?

Ìý

Donald

I can understand that it’s frustrating getting through to a call centre.Ìý You’re right it can be often the case that you get an easier route in through, for example, the internet or mobile banking app.Ìý Some offer a video call function, that can be one option.Ìý Another thing to consider is that call centres are sometimes busier during the morning, so it maybe that calling at a different time of day allows you to get through a little bit quicker.

Ìý

White

But it’s not easy, is it, you must admit, a lot of frustration attached compared to popping into your high street branch, which probably wasn’t very far from where you lived and talking to someone?

Ìý

Donald

And there are still a large number of high street branches.Ìý Whilst you’re right that there are fewer than there where, there’s still several thousand of them around the country, so that’s still an option for a lot of people.Ìý The other thing you can do is go into the local post office, there’s about eleven and a half thousand of them around the country and do a lot of your local day-to-day banking.

Ìý

White

Right.Ìý I’m just wondering, out of Mike and Roshni and Matt, is your opportunity to put any questions to Andy.Ìý I mean Mike you may well, as you’ve given up banking altogether.

Ìý

Lambert

Well, I’ll just say that the way Andy’s striving it, is it’s a little bit – departs from my reality.Ìý When I moved to this house 15 years ago there were five banks on the high street, there’s now none.

Ìý

Donald

In terms of bank branches, what’s happened over recent years, is that fewer people are using them and that does lead to some difficult decisions for all the firms in terms of closing them.Ìý The other thing that is starting to happen, although it’s only in small numbers at this stage, is the banks coming together and opening up a shared banking hub, whereby they pool their resources into one particular location and then you can come in and do your banking face-to-face that way.

Ìý

White

I mean do you know if the banks have any idea how many of their visually impaired customers won’t find it easy to bank online or use an app?

Ìý

Donald

They wouldn’t necessarily have those figures unless people are in touch with them.Ìý There was some interesting research I read by Experion which found that about 85% of people with support needs hadn’t actually got in touch with their bank or building society.Ìý If people are able to get in touch, discuss the options available and that will vary between different banks but that would be really important in terms of understanding what people are asking for and possibly what services can be improved or enhanced.

Ìý

White

Right.

Ìý

Lambert

I think that’s really trying to shift the responsibility on to vulnerable customers, that we should make our opinions clear.Ìý So, I think that’s a bit disingenuous to say that we need to let you know.

Ìý

White

Just before I give Andy a final chance to answer that.Ìý Roshni or Matt, anything you want to put to Andy Donald?

Ìý

Johnson

Yeah, you mentioned there Experion related research, you know, the banks didn’t know what was needed.Ìý Even if you get through to someone and you say – hey, look, I need accessibility improvements in x, y and z, unfortunately, the person you get through to at a call centre is unlikely to have the necessary training or knowledge to get there.Ìý So, is there a scheme across banks that is going to improve things?Ìý If you want to hear from us, how easy are you going to make it?

Ìý

Donald

I hear both those points and I certainly didn’t mean to come across as disingenuous because I understand the point that’s been made about being asked to contact your bank.Ìý As to whether work is going on, on creating a system that allows people to get in touch.Ìý There is a pilot scheme going on at the moment with a number of firms, that’s not just banks, in terms of trying to put in place a system that will allow people to effectively notify the system which would then disseminate it out to various institutions.

Ìý

White

Okay.Ìý Andy Donald, thank you very much for coming on to face the music, thank you.Ìý

Ìý

And we stay on the whole issue of personalisation because on the issue of trains, sadly the rail delivery group were coming on to face the music but they withdrew when they discovered we wanted to ask them about the controversy over whether to continue with manned ticketing offices at stations.Ìý We also, asked the Department for Transport if somebody would come on to talk about this, they said no minister was available.Ìý But it’s something our listeners do care about – Janice Mitchell told us:

Ìý

Janice Mitchell

I don’t have a ticket office at my local station, it’s all automatic computer screens and most of the time they’re broken.Ìý I often can’t use it anyway because it’s a touchscreen.Ìý I often just get on the train and hope a conductor will come along or I’ll buy a ticket when I arrive.

Ìý

White

Back to touchscreens again.Ìý Well to find out what the thinking is about ticket sales and other access issues on our trains, we turned, instead, to Tony Miles, of the magazine Modern Railways.

Ìý

Tony, why is this issue of ticket sales such a sticking point?

Ìý

Miles

It does appear, certainly from the government’s point of view, that getting people off trains and off stations is an easy fix in terms of saving money because the industry’s costing it too much.Ìý I understand why people are concerned because certainly the fears are that there is a political will to destaff stations, despite the fact that the last piece of research done of people that needed accessibility support, 44% of people across a range of people needing support said we need more staff at stations and 38% said we need more people on trains.Ìý That’s the feedback but it doesn’t necessarily trigger any kind of reaction in the Palace of Westminster, as it were.

Ìý

White

I have to say my bugbear on the railways is the hit and miss nature of the services that are meant to help us.Ìý You know, the delivery of announcements on the trains had improved enormously since the various crises on the railways – covid, slump in usage, industrial problems – you can’t rely on them anymore or I find you can’t.Ìý I don’t understand why, for instance, quite often, you don’t have announcements now, they don’t tell you which side of the train to get out – all that kind of stuff.Ìý You aren’t here to speak for the railways but do you know why that should be?

Ìý

Miles

I’ve been trying to look through all the reviews and all the rules and stuff and apart from the fact that nearly all the disability regulations focus on people in wheelchairs and people who need assistance to get up big steps, very little mention of people with visual impairments anyway, that there are no straight guidelines for what should be announced and what not.Ìý There are things like – you must announce the next station and so on but there’s no guideline that says – and how about telling people which side the train…the platform will be, really simple stuff, which they can do on the tube – the next stop is on the left – but why can’t they do it on a national rail train, it’s because there isn’t a rule that says they have to. ÌýThere seems to be a trend, at the moment, for the lowest you can get away with.Ìý If it doesn’t say we have to, then we probably won’t.

Ìý

White

Right.Ìý I just want to bring in our guests while we’ve got Tony here because one of the things that’s fair to say is the assistance can work very well – I don’t know how many of you three regularly use trains but what’s your experience been?

Ìý

Hafeez

The lack of staff in stations is definitely a concern.Ìý I have to travel a lot with work and often come back at quite unsocial hours and walking through a station, in not the best part of town, I’m also a female wearing a headscarf and using a white cane, you do feel incredibly vulnerable.Ìý I’ve raised this with staff at my local station, because my local station is only manned between 6.30 in the morning and 2.30 in the afternoon, so presumably all blind people are going to want to do what they have to do between those hours because they don’t work or do anything else.Ìý I have raised the issue and the advice I was given was to stay within visibility of the cameras – because, of course, you know where they are if you can’t see anything – so that you’re safe.

Ìý

White

Tony, have you got anything optimistic you can tell us?

Ìý

Miles

There are some good things, there have been some great things like tactile displays that help you work out the whole plan of station, that have been tested and approved and awards have been given…

Ìý

White

But then you get to the station and there’s no one to help you.

Ìý

Miles

Well, you’ve got to know where that tactile thing is and, yeah, the tactile edges are just fascinating.Ìý I was on a station the other day where the PA apologised for lack of tactile edges as I was poking my feet around the new tactile edges that were there.Ìý So, it’s that the road is paved with good intent but it probably needs a few more people to get out there and actually walk the walk.

Ìý

White

Tony Miles, thank you very much indeed for coming on.

Ìý

We’re nearing the end and I want to ask all three of you if you could suggest one thing to improve the situation and maintain what’s good while improving what’s bad, what would you suggest?

Ìý

Johnson

There needs to be categorical legislative reform with respect to the minimum standards that technology needs to meet in terms of accessibility.Ìý There need to be requirements that are imposed on large tech manufacturers and there need to be fines for non-compliance.Ìý That’s the only thing that is going to ensure a more equal playing field than we have.

Ìý

White

Right.Ìý I think I heard a growl of assent from Mike on the idea of legislation.Ìý So, apart from agreeing with Matt, anything else?

Ìý

Lambert

No, that was the first thing that occurred to me, I just feel that we had the 2010 legislation and the United Nations Convention have inspected this country and said there just aren’t enough cases being brought and therefore nothing’s enforced.Ìý And things can go on like what the guy was saying about the railways, that people just take a sort of don’t care – I don’t really have to try.

Ìý

White

Roshni, I’m going to take the liberty of steering you – I mean, by all means, say whatever was in your head but one of the things, I think, you told us when we were setting this up was where on earth do people get training to cope with computers and technology.

Ìý

Hafeez

Yeah, that is very nuanced because it is imperative that rehab staff etc. are equipped with the skills because it’s no longer about how to use a liquid level indicator or basic white cane skills, it’s actually how to interface with touchscreens on your iPhone and how to configure JAWS to meet your needs on your laptop.Ìý So, I think, while that wouldn’t solve a lot of the external infrastructure problems, it would definitely go a long, long way to making sure that people have improved access to the built and technological environment, thus giving them the ability to advocate more strongly for themselves and the changes they want to see.

Ìý

White

Right, loads of ideas there.Ìý I wish we had an hour for this because you’ve come up with so many things and we’ve also had guests who’ve done the same but we don’t have an hour – yet.Ìý Mike Lambert, Roshni Hafeez, Matt Johnson – thank you all very much indeed for steering us through this complicated subject.Ìý There are many other areas, we just didn’t have time to cover.Ìý And so, we’d like you, our listeners, to continue to add to the debate.Ìý You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk, you can leave a voice message on 0161 8361338 and you can go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch.Ìý

Ìý

That’s it, from me, Peter White, producer, Beth Hemmings, our guests and studio manager Sue Stonestreet, goodbye.

Ìý

Ìý

Ìý

Ìý