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THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.听 BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 麻豆约拍 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

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IN TOUCH 鈥� Citizenship; Tactile Art Exhibition

TX:听 14.12.2021听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening.听 Tonight鈥�

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Clip

They are massive, they鈥檙e about as big as a dining room table.听 Quite bulbous.听 The texture鈥檚 quite rough, almost like the surface of a stone, I would say.

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White

Any guesses as to what we could be talking about?听 Well, Fern Lulham will reveal all shortly.

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But, first, Brian Aylward wants to apply for the test that will allow him to become a British citizen.听 But Brian contacted us because he hadn鈥檛 been able to get the test revision materials he needs in his preferred format.听 In Brian鈥檚 case, that鈥檚 braille and, as you鈥檒l hear in a second, it鈥檚 a strong preference.

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You apply for the test through the 麻豆约拍 Office but provision of the test preparation materials have been outsourced to another organisation.听 Brian has been explaining the circumstances to me, why he wants to apply for citizenship.

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Aylward

I鈥檓 originally from the Republic of Ireland but I鈥檝e lived here in Northern Ireland for nearly 16 years.听 A lot of my friends and people who I know, who are born here, are entitled to dual nationality by virtue of the fact that they were born here and I鈥檝e always, maybe, had that as a long-term goal to also acquire British citizenship.听 I also think it would create more choices for me in terms of international travel, if I had both passports.听 But I also have lived here and contributed here for a long time and would like to formalise that, so to speak, by applying for citizenship.

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White

So, when you initially asked for the information that you needed in Braille what were you told?

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Aylward

Well, I first contacted TSO, who were the test material organisers, and they told me that they didn鈥檛 provide information I was looking for in braille.听 They then asked me to write a letter, saying why I needed braille access.听 It鈥檚 quite obvious why we鈥檙e looking for braille if we鈥檙e requesting it, we are people who are blind, those of us who are requesting braille usage.听 I filled out the form online and it stated if you had disability requirements to fill them in.听 They then wrote back to me saying that they merely provided the material, i.e. the booklet and past examination papers, in audio CD, in large print and so on, which is no good to me because I鈥檓 a braille user.

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White

Brian, you may think it鈥檚 obvious but maybe some won鈥檛, just explain why is it so important that you get the information in braille?听 As you鈥檝e just explained, the 麻豆约拍 Office said to us that you could get this information on audio CD, why isn鈥檛 that good enough because although, as you say, you鈥檙e blind, a lot of blind people do access information by audio rather than braille.

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Aylward

That is correct but just because something鈥檚 right for one person, who鈥檚 blind, doesn鈥檛 mean it鈥檚 right for another.听 I find it easier to study if material is actually written in front of me in braille and if I鈥檓 not just listening to it on sound.听 If I鈥檓 trying to memorise stuff based on just listening to sounds of things, it uses up a lot of energy for me that could be used in other ways and on other things.听 And also, it should be my choice what format I use.听 We鈥檙e not asking people with eyesight to study material that they don鈥檛 have written in front of them and I don鈥檛 see why I should be expected to do something that people with eyesight would not be expected to do.听 After all, I鈥檓 just looking for the same access as anybody else.

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White

Now, again, initially, the 麻豆约拍 Office told us, and I鈥檓 quoting: 鈥淟earning materials supplied for the test are compliant with disability legislation and they鈥檙e available in a variety of formats including audio books, the handbook is not in braille.鈥澨� Now is it that you contest the fact that this actually does comply with disability discrimination legislation or is it that you don鈥檛 actually think the legislation, itself, is clear enough as regards the right to the format of your choice?

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Aylward

I would say both actually, Peter.听 In my opinion, I鈥檓 not a lawyer, based on my understanding of the law, it is not compliant with existing legislation.听 But I also think existing legislation may be could and should be worded strongly because a lot of the way laws are worded can be quite vague and open to various interpretations.听 But I would also argue that under the existing law, it is not compliant because it鈥檚 not basing the decision on whether or not to provide the format on people鈥檚 individual needs, it鈥檚 adopting a same uniform fits all which goes both against the letter and the principle of equality laws that exist both in Great Britain and in Northern Ireland.听 And I should point out, that the 2010 Equality Act does not apply here on Northern Ireland, unlike the rest of the United Kingdom.听 In Northern Ireland we are operating under the pre-2010 framework that existed within the United Kingdom.

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White

Now, literally, just a few hours ago, before this recorded interview, we have now been told that someone wanting the revision handbook, as they say, in braille, can apply direct to the 麻豆约拍 Office.听 What do you say to that, have you been told that at any point?

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Aylward

No, absolutely not.听 This is the first kind of any progress at all on this issue, what you鈥檝e just reported to me.

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White

Now, I suppose I should say, it says you can apply for it, I suppose they still haven鈥檛 said that you鈥檒l get it but are you now going to do that?

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Aylward

If the 麻豆约拍 Office would be so kind as to forward me the information regarding how I could possibly do that I certainly would.听 But it鈥檚 still concerning that they鈥檙e saying you can only apply for it and that there鈥檚 no guarantee that you鈥檒l actually get it.

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White

Brian Aylward.

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So, what exactly are Brian鈥檚 rights in this matter and on what basis are you supposed to balance Brian鈥檚 strong preference with what it鈥檚 reasonable to ask a supplier to provide?

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Well, Anne McKernan is the Head of the Legal Services Division at the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland.

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Anne, as Brian mentioned, the laws are slightly different in Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK.听 Britain operates under the Equality Act 2010 and it鈥檚 the Disability Discrimination Act, as Brain said, that鈥檚 still relevant in Northern Ireland.听 So, what rights does Brian actually have in Northern Ireland?

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McKernan

So, both pieces of legislation prohibit discrimination by the 麻豆约拍 Office and other public bodies when they鈥檙e carrying out their public functions.

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White

The key, in a way, is that word reasonable, isn鈥檛 it?听 The 麻豆约拍 Office told us that they offer The Life in the UK test which is what it鈥檚 called with extra time for a visually impaired person, with a reader and a scribe and that assistance dogs are allowed, they鈥檙e pretty clever some of these dogs, they also told us that learning materials supplied for the test are compliant with their disability legislation and available in a variety of formats.听 But the fact is Brian didn鈥檛 feel that these were suitable for his access needs.听 Would you regard a braille version of the revision handbook as a reasonable adjustment?

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McKernan

Well, my own view, is that the 麻豆约拍 Office is a very large and powerful organisation with big resources.听 They have, already, demonstrated a commitment to accessibility and so, my question would be why not?听 Now reasonable is always going to be determined on a case-by-case basis in that regard, so, it鈥檚 very case specific.听 What I would suggest, in the first instance, is to making a complaint under the accessibility regulations and as the caller is in Northern Ireland, the Equality Commission in Northern Ireland can help him to do that.听 And then, secondly, as the caller is in Northern Ireland he may consider enforcement under the Disability Discrimination Act, claiming discrimination by failure to make a reasonable adjustment for a disability.听 But how this is done in Northern Ireland is by legal proceedings in a county court.听 It would then be up to a judge to decide if the 麻豆约拍 Office had made sufficient reasonable adjustments or if a failure to provide a braille format is unlawfully discriminatory on the grounds of disability.

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White

And, as I understand it, what the 麻豆约拍 Office would then have to show is that it was difficult for it to do it.

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McKernan

It would have to be more than simply difficult to do.听 I mean one of the things that they would need to look at was to say were there unreasonable burdens on this, was it unreasonable to expect that the 麻豆约拍 Office would do this.听 Now it seems to me, when you鈥檙e looking at the sort of resources that are available to the 麻豆约拍 Office and the needs of braille users, then they would have to be in a position to try and justify the stance that they have taken before a county court judge.听 And this test, I mean, this test is like a 45-minute test, multiple choice questions, it ranges across history and geography and politics and culture and values and loads of things.听 So, there鈥檚 quite a lot to learn.听 They鈥檝e suggested to him, for example, that he would be provided information in an audio format.听 Now for Brian, learning visually is via braille and so it seems to me that he would be placing the onus on the 麻豆约拍 Office to then explain why that couldn鈥檛 be provided for him in the way in which it would be provided for a sighted person.

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White

Anne McKernan, thank you very much indeed.

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Now, time for a break from high politics, I think.听 I鈥檝e often fallen into the trap of being a bit sniffy about the idea of visually impaired people pursuing art as a major interest and in some cases, as a profession.听 It鈥檚 been quickly pointed out to me that plenty of art is dependent as much on texture and touch, as it is on visual effects and that, in any case, there are plenty of world-renowned artists who鈥檝e used their changing eyesight to add individuality to their interpretations of what they see.听 So, when we heard of a recent covid theme art exhibition, featuring the work of blind and partially sighted artists, we sent reporter Fern Lulham along to the Oxo Tower in London to find out more.听 Fae Kilburn began by telling Fern about some of her pieces.

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Kilburn

It鈥檚 how disabled people perceive themselves, so things like creative power, hardworking and another portrait has a layer of words that depicts how other people make them feel.听 Printmaking is all about precision, which is challenging when you鈥檝e lost your vision but I鈥檓 reliant on my hearing now, my sense of touch.听 For me, I normally work with materials, so that people can touch my work.听 But I鈥檝e explored audio visuals, so that if you can鈥檛 see it, you can hear it.

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Lulham

And if you鈥檙e wondering how being able to hear art might work, here鈥檚 a clip from a video piece Fae produced about the pandemic.

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Clip 鈥� Fae Kilburn artwork

Shattered, different鈥�

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Lulham

Now, any guesses on what I found next based on this description?

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They are massive, they鈥檙e about as big as a dining table.听 Quite bulbous.听 The texture鈥檚 quite rough, almost like the surface of a stone I would say.听 Not going to press too hard on it because apparently, it鈥檚 suspended in the air and I don鈥檛 want to knock it over.听 But it鈥檚 really tactile.

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Yep, you got it, a pair of giant pears sat in the middle of the gallery.听 These were sculptures by David Johnson and he talked me through what they represent for him and his on/off relationship with art.

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Johnson

Went to art school for a year and then I stopped because my sight was really going quickly then.听 And I really came back to art after I鈥檇 gone totally blind in my 30s.听 So, total blindness actually brought me back to visual art.听 My piece is a couple of giant pears and they鈥檙e just not touching, I hope, unless they鈥檝e moved on the gallery floor.听 The idea is with blindness, if you鈥檙e not touching something it only has to be not touching by a millimetre and it鈥檚 as if you鈥檙e a thousand miles away from the object.听 And they were made by taking a real pear 鈥� which I鈥檝e got a 3D print of it in my hand now 鈥� can I give you that鈥�

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Lulham

Yeah.

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Johnson

That was a real pear and we scanned it and 3D printed it and then we blew up the digital data a thousand times to produce these two enormous pears.

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Lulham

What was it about the pears that made you want to use those?

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Johnson

That English phrase 鈥� it鈥檚 all gone pear shaped 鈥� which 鈥� it could apply to covid.听 The idea that it鈥檚 something going wrong.听 There鈥檚 nothing wrong with the shape of pears.听 As I鈥檓 sure you鈥檒l agree.

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Lulham

No, absolutely, I鈥檝e got this one in my hand, that you鈥檝e given me, and it鈥檚 very nice to feel.

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Johnson

Flat at the bottom, thin at the top.

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Lulham

In another corner of the gallery, I was trying to figure out what else I鈥檇 got my hands on.

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It has two arms, it has a long body, it鈥檚 quite nice to feel actually because it鈥檚 smooth but satisfyingly springy underneath my figures.

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Luckily for me, this wasn鈥檛 a real person but instead a wire sculpture, hand woven by Lynn Cox.

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Cox

It started being a self-portrait.听 I鈥檝e used a bit of artistic licence because it鈥檚 got lovely cheekbones and I haven鈥檛.

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Lulham

Ah, I鈥檓 sure you have Lynn.

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Cox

Yeah, I start with a piece of anything from 10 metres to 50 metres copper wire and I鈥檓 just pulling it through, twisting it around.听 I like the copper because the person feeling it can move it a bit and they can change it.听 So, for me, it鈥檚 all to do with appreciating artwork on more than one sense 鈥� you can touch them, maybe you can smell them.听 I draw with chocolate, so obviously you鈥檙e not advised to taste them but they鈥檝e got a distinct smell.

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Lulham

I was distracted from my daydream of edible exhibits by someone who stood out in the crowd 鈥� a man wearing an eye-catching suit with large dots covering it.听 These matched his artwork which was all covered in braille dots of many different colours.

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I鈥檓 now up against the braille picture.听 It鈥檚 rough on the surface, it almost feels like there鈥檚 sand on the surface and stickers.听 And this is all different colours, different coloured dots on a light blue background.

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Feeling an unmistakeable twank of fashion envy, I couldn鈥檛 resist to getting Clark Reynolds to tell me more about his work and, just as importantly, his suit.

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Reynolds

It is a bright yellow suit and on it is dots in various sizes that can be touched and it鈥檚 all braille.听 So, literally, I am a walking art piece.听 I discovered braille a couple of years ago and it was like 鈥� why is this not an artform.听 It鈥檚 beautiful when you blow that dot up and the dot becomes a frame in itself, so I can hold so much information.听 But the ideas 鈥� it makes people approachable and ask about braille and talk about sight loss, you know, we can鈥檛 talk about the positives about sight loss, it鈥檚 always about the negative.听 Art has helped me with my sight loss.听 And I hope, one day, I can co-exist with mainstream art, that is the goal for me.

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Lulham

Do you think being blind has any advantages over being a sighted artist?

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Reynolds

Yes, I don鈥檛 have to worry about competition.听 I鈥檝e got more freedom.听 It takes all the hard work out of it.

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Lulham

In terms of composure, do you just do it all by feel or by touch?

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Reynolds

Yeah and then I paint everything twice, just in case I鈥檝e missed it.听 And I get things 鈥� ooh, I like the length of that I鈥檒l use that as a guide.听 And it鈥檚 simple things like that.听 Use household items.

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Lulham

Feeling inspired I asked the experts to share some advice for any aspiring visually impaired artists.

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Montage

Everyone鈥檚 perspective is unique.听 Don鈥檛 create what you think you should create, create your own unique perspective.

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Just play really and just enjoy, you鈥檒l probably be surprised at how much you do get out of it.

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Visually impaired artists perceive the world differently and I think that鈥檚 our great strength.听 Monet was visually impaired in his later years.听 Matisse.听 That didn鈥檛 stop them being visionary artists, it just altered what they did and how they did it.

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Have fun, I think that鈥檚 key, you鈥檝e got to have fun.听 Don鈥檛 get stressed 鈥� oh my god, I can鈥檛 see what I鈥檓 doing.听 Explore that, explore the craziness that is blindness, you know.听 Art has given me the reason never to grow old.

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Lulham

Lastly, I located David and his assistant Jan because I just couldn鈥檛 leave without doing one more thing.

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I鈥檒l give you your pear back, oh that it is and it sounds like you and Jan make a great pair鈥�[laughter].听 Is that too cheesy?

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Well, if terrible puns are a form of art, I might just be on to something.听 Otherwise, it鈥檚 back to the drawing board for me.

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White

Fern Lulham with a fascinating quartet of visually impaired artists.

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And that鈥檚 it for today.听 Let鈥檚 have your comments, questions, stories, emailed to intouch@bbc.co.uk.听 You can leave your voicemails on 0161 8361338 or go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch where you can also download tonight鈥檚 and previous editions of the programme.听 Do join us next week for a bit of an In Touch Christmas bash, all socially distanced, of course.听 You can join in by telling us about the most inappropriate Christmas present you鈥檝e received as a blind or partially sighted person.听 I nominate a mirror, which I was given once.听

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From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio managers Carwyn Griffith and John Cole, goodbye.