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IN TOUCH 鈥� Photo ID at Polling Stations; Network Rail on Tactile Paving

TX:听 20.07.2021听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening.听 One step forward, two steps back 鈥� tonight we look at fears that just as the campaign to give visually impaired people equal rights to vote secretly and independently seemed to be bearing fruit, there鈥檚 another possible legislative spanner in the works.听 And we鈥檒l be hearing from Network Rail鈥檚 Head of Public and Passenger Safety.听 Is it really going to take another eight years before all station platforms in the UK have tactile paving to make them safe?

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But first, earlier this year we reported on an experiment, during council elections, where visually impaired voters at nine polling stations in Norfolk, could use audio equipment at their polling stations to identify candidates and where those candidates appeared on the voting paper.听 This would allow them to cast their vote without assistance and in secret, something which hadn鈥檛 really been possible before.听 It followed a ground-breaking judicial review, in which a high court judge said that the previous method of voting was unfit for purpose.

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Well one of the voters taking part in the experiment, Joy Croft, told In Touch what she thought of being able to use audio.

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Croft

It went pretty well, it鈥檚 not bad for an electronic voice and what鈥檚 good about it is that I鈥檓 in charge of playing it, I could play it as many times over as I wanted to.听 The thing that was better was that the steward wasn鈥檛 standing over me reading the names, which meant I was more private, which is what I want, of course, like any voter but also, I didn鈥檛 have the embarrassment of having to ask him to read it over and over again.听 I just did it myself.听 I was born in the United States and I鈥檝e only been voting here since 2000, so this very much the most kind of independent way that I鈥檝e been able to vote so far.

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White

Joy Croft.听

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Well, the RNIB, which organised the trial, now wants to see that equipment made available in all polling stations throughout the UK.听 But their satisfaction with that has been rather tarnished by the government鈥檚 plans to introduce a requirement for photo ID at polling stations under the current Elections Bill.听 The government view is that by asking voters to prove that they are who they say they are, it鈥檒l guard against potential voter fraud in future elections.听 Well, the RNIB fears that this will exclude around 40,000 blind and partially sighted voters who鈥檒l find it difficult to provide photo ID.听 And their Director of Development, Keith Valentine joins me now.

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Keith, just explain exactly what your concerns are about asking visually impaired people to provide voter ID.

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Valentine

Thanks Peter.听 Yeah, I mean 2022 is the 150th year of the right to vote in secret for citizens in the UK and the root of what we鈥檙e saying here, in terms of access at voting and voting ID, is that citizens that are visually impaired need to be able to exercise their right, we think it鈥檚 foundational, we think it鈥檚 part of the process of being included fundamentally in society and participating in communities and that鈥檚 about giving back, as well as receiving support.听 We鈥檝e obviously had some delays in the adoption of the equipment that Joy was speaking about there, partly relating to the pandemic and our real push now is to make sure that that鈥檚 adopted.听 And in regard to the ID, it鈥檚 simply the case that those 40,000 people, and I suggest it鈥檚 more widely as well, won鈥檛 necessarily have the kind of photo ID that will be out there in the general population.听 The obvious one to point to Peter is the driving licence as a definite indication of who you are.听 So, our concerns here about disincentives to vote at all being created as well as the difficulties in voting themselves.

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White

But aren鈥檛 there other ways to acquire photo ID?

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Valentine

Yeah, there鈥檚 always going to be workarounds and people will do that but on the whole, within the population, photo IDs are at a much lower level than it is in the general population.听 So, the point we would make to government here is there is a definite need to consider the way that blind and visually impaired people live their lives.听 At root, the point here, is that the legislation needs not to be blind to the needs of those people as they participate in society, something as fundamental as an election.

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White

Now you鈥檝e been talking to MPs about this.听 I think you had a number of online sessions with them.听 What kinds of things are they telling you, are you making headway with this point?

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Valentine

So, the argument, and we had people with us from parties across the board in government, I think the basic argument about the right of people to be able to vote in the same way as anyone else is definitely landing.听 And I think that we had a number of MPs that were recounting examples from their constituencies of people they know that have had difficulty in voting or voting in secret within their constituencies.听 So, I get a sense that the case is well made and understood but there鈥檚 a sense from the MPs that we鈥檝e spoken to, to see this picked up.听 The real job here though, Peter, I think is to build from that, to get an active and positive conversation with government particularly about how they鈥檙e going to implement the equipment that鈥檚 going to make it possible for everybody to vote, as is their right, come the next elections.

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White

Now this isn鈥檛 your only worry, I think, you鈥檙e concerned about the inaccessibility of relevant information surrounding elections 鈥� manifestos, more local candidate information 鈥� that kind of thing.

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Valentine

I mean it links to a fundamental point that we鈥檒l be making or we have been making and we鈥檒l be making over the next year, that a right to accessible information isn鈥檛 simply about large print or a bit of braille here and there, it鈥檚 about participation and the ability of people to properly understand and engage with the dynamics of what鈥檚 going on politically in their communities.听 And in many instances, the requirement on public authorities to publish accessible information.听 In law it鈥檚 legislated and I think too often our campaigns guys are out there trying to get bodies to subscribe to what the law sets out that should be followed.听 I think, as well, there鈥檚 a job for all of us to do to raise the profile of the significance of this, that these are issues that where they鈥檙e got wrong actually as a barrier to inclusion, they become an exclusion.听 And I think simply if local authorities and those administering elections 鈥� and I鈥檇 suggest conversations with political parties as well 鈥� can have in mind that there are large proportions of the population affected by sight loss, that could be their supporters, that could be active citizens, I鈥檓 sure they鈥檒l see the value of just adhering to accessible information as a matter of right.

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White

There was a time when the RNIB itself provided quite a lot of this information, almost automatically, I mean the major manifestos for example, couldn鈥檛 they do more of that now, don鈥檛 you need to be a leader instead of asking other people to do it?

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Valentine

One hundred percent we need to lead in our field.听 I don鈥檛 think the RNIB鈥檚 ever going to be an alternative to mainstream organisations adhering to their statutory responsibilities and basically following the law in terms of the information that they report.听 But we put as much effort, as we possibly can, into mitigating those processes and you鈥檒l know, certainly in terms of newspapers and our establishment providing audiobooks and all of the various other things we鈥檙e doing a hell of a lot to get information to people.听 But we recognise that there鈥檚 only so much you can do from a charitable perspective bearing in mind we have a pact, if you like, with the public that gives us their money to pursue this stuff.听 And I think, in this area, we鈥檙e wise to make the point to government, to legislators, local authorities, and I鈥檇 extend that to companies and political parties, to do their bit to make the system work for blind and visually impaired people, who shouldn鈥檛 need a charity to intervene so that they can exercise their rights like every other person, that should be the way that the country works.听 And I鈥檇 argue, as well, that doesn鈥檛 just benefit blind and visually impaired people, that creates the kind of community where we鈥檙e all operating equally and can participate, and that can only be good for everybody.

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White

In a statement from the Cabinet Office, they told us: 鈥淭his government will continue to work with charities and the electoral sector to ensure support for voters is available in more accessible formats, improved training for electoral staff on disability awareness and expand support for people with a wide range of disabilities at polling stations through the Elections Bill.鈥澨� So, they鈥檙e sounding positive.听 Are we nearer to people with a visual impairment having the same voting rights as anyone else?

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Valentine

I think we are nearer, whether we鈥檙e an inch forward or a mile forward, I think we鈥檒l find over this next six months to a year, as we start to look at how these devices are implemented and the various other policy areas that relate to that.听 What 鈥� we鈥檙e certainly not getting pushback from government and the minister gave us words to share with MPs at the meetings last week.听 But we see this as something that we aren鈥檛 going to step back on.听 I think it鈥檚 a foundational issue for the inclusion of blind and visually impaired people in society and absolutely applaud the government taking that position and making that commitment.听 We obviously are keen to see what that means in detail and that it solves the material problems that blind and visually impaired people face in putting their tick or their cross in that box and voting for the person that they believe to be the right person to be elected.

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White

Keith Valentine, thank you very much indeed.

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And now, for some of your emails and as usual full of observation, humour and some interesting suggestions.听 Like this advice from David Austin to the people who collect our rubbish in response to our recent item about the menace of wheelie bins scattered all over our pavements.

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Austin 鈥� email

We can reduce the length of time bins are out, awaiting collection, by instructing councils to push back the time of collections to beyond 9.00 am, that is after peak travelling times.听 And asking households, where possible, to put out their bins after 6.00 am.听 This would mean no bins or few bins, at least, overnight, wouldn鈥檛 it?听 Similar arrangements can be made for commercial waste, with even the streets of our capital city perpetually littered with junk 24 hours a day, why can鈥檛 we have direct collection from premises during the day when businesses are open?

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White

And our item on bringing up baby when you鈥檙e visually impaired drew this delightful but sadly anonymous anecdote.

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Anonymous email

I always change both my daughters on the changing mat on the floor so I wouldn鈥檛 drop the baby.听 One day, after changing my eldest daughter, I left her safely on the changing mat while I went to clear the soiled nappy and other items away.听 When I returned, I found to my horror that she wasn鈥檛 on her changing mat, I crawled around on all fours but I wasn鈥檛 able to find her.听 I knew that she was unable to walk, so she couldn鈥檛 be far.听 My husband returned home from work to find me crying.听 He asked me what the matter was.听 I replied 鈥� I鈥檝e lost the baby.听 He took a look around the lounge and to his delight found the small baby underneath the sofa.听 He asked her what she was doing under there.听 She smiled and chuckled back at him 鈥� she鈥檇 discovered the art of crawling.

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White

Baby鈥檚 revenge 鈥� sweet.听 We always like your emails, serious or more light-hearted, you can email intouch@bbc.co.uk.

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And now to another subject that has created a good deal of listener interest.听 Last week, we returned to the issue of installing tactile paving to the edges of all station platforms to warn visually impaired people they were approaching the edge.听 Concern about this had been heightened by the death of a passenger last year, at a station in southeast London.听 But the stated target of completing this work by 2029 didn鈥檛 seem fast enough to many people.听 However, in a statement to us last week, Network Rail said an additional 拢10 million had been agreed with the Department for Transport, which would mean additional work could start straightaway, to be completed as soon as possible.

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Well, it鈥檚 a figure we still haven鈥檛 had confirmed to us by the Department for Transport, so clarification of exactly what was happening still seemed necessary, so I鈥檓 delighted to welcome Network Rail鈥檚 Head of Public and Passenger Safety, Allan Spence.

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Allan, first of all, just what can you tell us about how quickly this work can be completed?

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Spence

Hello.听 Well, thank you very much for the opportunity to give you some further information on this.听 Clearly, after the awful circumstances of Cleveland Gervais dying at Eden Park Station in 2020, there鈥檚 been a huge amount of focus on how we can accelerate fitting of tactile surfaces on the edges of station platforms.听 We鈥檝e got a programme in place in the majority of the network, there鈥檚 still one region that I鈥檝e yet to see the targeted plan for what they鈥檙e doing.听 But across the network we are prioritising where we accelerate fitting the tactile surfaces.听 And certainly, over the next two years, two-two and a half years, we鈥檙e prioritising those sites where we know there is the greater risk.听 And that must be our priority.

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White

Can we clarify this issue over the money though?听 Department for Transport told us that there鈥檚 been no figure that鈥檚 yet been actually finalised to complete these works.听 I mean have you or haven鈥檛 you been promised 拢10 million?

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Spence

We have agreed that we will set about planning the work for the remainder of the current control period, that鈥檚 up until April 2024.听 And that we estimate will be work that costs us 拢10 million more than we鈥檇 already planned to spend on station enhancements. 听So, that work is being planned now and will go ahead.听 We鈥檝e had close engagement with ministers and we鈥檝e agreed the need to accelerate that work.

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White

So, you think you鈥檙e going to get that money?

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Spence

We鈥檙e working on those plans; in fact, we鈥檝e submitted those plans for four regions already to the rail regulator.

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White

So, do you have a new target date because, as I said, eight years is a long time to wait for all the areas to be covered?

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Spence

There鈥檚 a massive task to complete the national network.听 Just to put it in scale, it鈥檚 something over 400 kilometres of tactile surface needs to be installed.听 That鈥檚 on several thousand platforms.听 So, it鈥檚 important we prioritise, it鈥檚 important to recognise that we鈥檒l do the highest risk first 鈥� those that have got partial tactiles will be first, those where we know the station is used by blind and partially sighted people will be high on our priority list.听 It will take us a few years to complete this but we are absolutely committed that鈥檚 what we鈥檒l do.

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White

But the Lib Dem group on the London Assembly, which, you know, have taken a great interest in this, they claim that at the current rate of installation the goal of stations being fully tactile by 2029 isn鈥檛 possible, in fact they even say that to achieve 100% coverage, to do that would require quadrupling the speed of installation.听 Do you recognise those figures?

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Spence

So, at the current rate it would have taken us too long to get across the network.听 That鈥檚 why we鈥檙e putting together the plans to accelerate that programme, which means that we鈥檝e got realistic plans.听 Some of our regions, two routes, will have completed the work by June next year, those are the busy stations down just south of London in Kent and Sussex.听 And there are other regions who鈥檝e got clear plans that I鈥檝e seen that will have us complete this over the next eight years, seven to eight years.

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White

Are there ways in which this work could be done more quickly and more cheaply?听 I want to quote you an email which repeats a point made to us by a number of listeners after our programme last February which you appeared on.听 Alex Sidebottom emailed:

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Sidebottom 鈥� email

I work for a local authority designing and project managing accessibility improvements at public transport boarding points.听 I believe that Network Rail could very quickly and cheaply employ resin road surfacing, often used for anti-skid properties on many roads around the country.听 This process, although not as resilient as concrete tactile tiles, could be installed on multiple platforms in the matter of an evening, minimising the disruption even less by only doing part of platforms on one evening, then the other part the following evening.听 Anti-skid material can be layered to make ridges, dots or whatever鈥檚 needed by existing lining companies employed by local authorities, airports, etc.听 I wonder if this has been considered.

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White

Well, Allan Spence, has it or something like it?

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Spence

Yes it has.听 So, there鈥檚 a whole range of different solutions that we can and do use.听 There is the traditional concrete sections that replace big chunks of the platform surface.听 And your correspondent there is quite right, they鈥檙e expensive, they鈥檙e slower to install, the rate of progress will be less but they鈥檙e the right solution in some circumstances, where we鈥檙e doing a major station overhaul for example.

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White

Can I just ask about one other issue, which is away from the actual tactile paving work, there鈥檚 been a lot of work to improve the programme to provide assistance to blind and partially sighted people but a number of stations are still unmanned, especially in the evenings and weekends.听 Is this being addressed?

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Spence

We know that blind and partially sighted people would, by preference, be able to have safe travel without needing to get other people to assist them.听 The station operators, the train operating companies, have themselves got some responsibility for the information about which stations are fitted with tactile surfaces and hence enable that independent safe travel and which ones are not.

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White

Well, we鈥檒l continue to watch this all very carefully.听 Allan Spence, thank you very much for coming on.

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And that鈥檚 it for today鈥檚 programme but something we鈥檇 really like to start doing is getting more of your voices on the show, as opposed to us reading out your emails for you.听 If you鈥檇 like to air your opinions you can leave us a voicemail by calling 0161 8361338 but, of course, if you prefer, we still welcome your emails intouch@bbc.co.uk.

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From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio manager Jonathan Esp, goodbye.

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