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THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.听 BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 麻豆约拍 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

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IN TOUCH 鈥� MP Marsha de Cordova鈥檚 fight for disability support

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TX:听 01.10.2019听 2040-2100

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PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 EMMA TRACEY

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White

Good evening.听 Tonight:听 One visually impaired MP鈥檚 fight for the tools to do her job.听 And one view of how talking newspapers could reach many more listeners.

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But first, with the country buzzing with talk of an impending general election, this surprise result in the last one only seems like yesterday.

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Result announcement

I do hereby declare that Marsha Chantal De Cordova is duly elected to serve as the MP for Battersea.听 [Cheering]

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White

Well it was in fact the 8th June 2017 and in a night of surprises Marsha De Cordova鈥檚 capture of Battersea for Labour with a 10% swing was one of the biggest.听 Far from holding her back, her visual impairment 鈥� she has nystagmus 鈥� made her perhaps a natural choice as Shadow Disability Minister.听 But since then the struggle she鈥檚 had to get the support to do her work 鈥� which she feels she needs 鈥� has shocked and surprised her.

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Earlier this year, she went public about it to fellow MPs.

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De Cordova

Unfortunately, obtaining the support and additional support that I need in this place to operate and function as an MP has been challenging.听 I鈥檓 having to continuously fight for additional support when I鈥檓 being told by IPSA 鈥� we know you have additional needs but we鈥檙e not going to support those additional needs.听 It has made it very difficult for me.听 I should be here, the people of Battersea have sent me here to represent them, I shouldn鈥檛 be fighting the authorities here to get the additional support that I need.

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White

The IPSA, Marsha refers to there, is the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, a non-party body which counts administering a disability assistance budget amongst its responsibilities.

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When she talked to us just a few days after being elected, Marsha could already see the kinds of difficulties and pressures the job would throw up.听 The sheer weight of paperwork she鈥檇 have to deal with in a form she could read, just navigating the notoriously winding and rambling nature of buildings designed in the middle of the 19th century and the need to keep track of constituency cases, as well as the relentless parliamentary timetable.听 So, I asked her 鈥� what鈥檚 gone wrong with your support.

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De Cordova

This year IPSA got in touch with me to inform me that some of the support that I was getting was made in error.听 I had funding support for an additional member of staff and it was that funding that was then stopped, so therefore, I had to let that member of staff go.

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White

So, what effect has that had?

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De Cordova

Well it鈥檚 had a huge impact on me being able to carry out my shadow ministerial responsibilities.听 I obviously am still trying to do my very best in representing disabled people but it鈥檚 not been easy.听 In another vein, I also asked IPSA to take into account the additional costs I would have due to having to print papers in larger fonts and obviously it鈥檚 going to cost me more to run my office.

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White

And that鈥檚 because you need large print?

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De Cordova

Yeah, for example, if I鈥檓 printing a speech that I鈥檓 going to have to read in the Chamber it would be printed in up to font 46, that鈥檚 obviously lots more paper, lots more ink.听 So, I wanted them to take that into consideration and that鈥檚 what they said they wouldn鈥檛 do.

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They have now, I鈥檓 happy to say, conceded on that and will now be allocating the additional funding for printing costs.听 I made that speech on International Women鈥檚 Day this year and it wasn鈥檛 until then that IPSA actually did get back in touch with me and wanted to talk about a way forward.听 Prior to that, it pretty much was a clear-cut no and that鈥檚 it.

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White

How do you say that this has prevented you from doing your job?

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De Cordova

Well Peter, to say that it鈥檚 been a challenge and it has been quite a struggle would be an understatement.听 Having to battle with IPSA to almost prove that I required this support.听 Going through the process of IPSA wanting to understand the nature of the support I required and then, in my opinion, placing some unreasonable demands, let鈥檚 just say, on what they required in order to look at whether they would provide me with extra support was hugely disappointing for me because you expect authorities to have a clear defined policy in how they would support anybody with a disability.

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White

We invited IPSA, that鈥檚 the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, to comment on your concerns.听 They told us: 鈥淲e support comprehensive assessment of the specific needs of MPs and their staff so that any reasonable adjustments, in line with the Equality Act, can be identified and quickly funded to help MPs in their jobs.鈥澨� And they say: 鈥淚PSA has an uncapped disability assistance fund for costs and reasonable adjustments that are reasonably attributable to a disability of an MP.鈥�

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De Cordova

I鈥檓 really pleased that IPSA have given you guys the statement that they have and I look forward to hearing from them as to whether they will be funding the additional support that I鈥檝e asked for.

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White

Have you been given reasons why your applications for funding have been either turned down or reversed?

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De Cordova

All IPSA told me, in relation to the support for the extra worker, was that the application was approved in error.听 And that鈥檚 that.

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White

So, you don鈥檛 know what the error was.听听 IPSA has a disability funding which they鈥檝e spent 拢120,000 last year and on the face of it people will think that paper and ink can鈥檛 make a very big dent in that.听 Do you have any understanding of why this has been such a problem?

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De Cordova

Again, I just think, it鈥檚 people making decisions but ultimately what needs to happen is that they need to have a comprehensive policy in place, which it sounds like they鈥檙e beginning to do, on how they support disabled members.听 I shouldn鈥檛 have had to experience what I experienced this year, which has had a significant impact on my health and wellbeing and I鈥檓 just hoping, going forward, nobody else has to therefore experience what I鈥檝e had to go through.

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White

You were quite emotional in that clip that we heard, when you spoke鈥�

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De Cordova

I was emotional listening to it, Peter.听

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White

Can you just explain what effect it鈥檚 had?

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De Cordova

Well, it鈥檚 been emotional and it鈥檚 caused me to have a lot of stress and worry and anxiety.

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White

I mean you must have known when you stood for parliament it wouldn鈥檛 be a walk in the park, it would be a tough job anyway.

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De Cordova

Well, I mean I think I鈥檓 doing an incredibly good job being a member of parliament for my constituents, so that鈥檚 a very good tick and a good plus for me.听 You, yourself, Peter, would know if you do have an impairment then that requires you to maybe need additional support and what鈥檚 important is to ensure that disabled MPs, or anybody, gets the right support that they need.

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I also look at this in the wider context, Peter, of if it鈥檚 been this challenging for me, as a member of parliament, to get the required support needed, I think of all the other disabled people that are looking for work and going into work and some of the challenges and the barriers that they are facing and it鈥檚 really why I wanted to share my experience in that particular debate because we are in a situation where the disability employment gap for disabled people has remained pretty stagnant at just about 30% for a very long time now and we need to look at how we can close that gap because frankly, in 2019 it鈥檚 just not good enough.

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White

Now when you talked to us within days of being elected, you listed the things you wanted to do specifically for disabled people.听 How successful do you think you鈥檝e been so far?

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De Cordova

Disabled people have suffered quite significantly in relation to austerity and cuts to social security support and things like that.听 Holding this government to account on that has been quite important to me.听 So, I think I鈥檝e done a fairly good job at that.听 Obviously, I can鈥檛 implement policies until we have and elect a Labour government.

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White

Also, transport was very high on your list when you talked to us before.听 This government has made a commitment to accessible public transport by 2030, they鈥檝e asked local authorities to call a halt to shared spaces schemes that are in the planning stage, something that very much has worried visually impaired people; the rail regulator has introduced improvements to the assistance travellers get and better compensation when that goes wrong.听 These are concrete improvements, aren鈥檛 they?

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De Cordova

Absolutely, and who could argue with that?听 I鈥檓 also pleased that I lobbied and campaigned to ensure that some of my train stations in Battersea will also be step free and I鈥檓 pleased to say that two of those stations will now be made step free.听 So, I give credit where credit is due.

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White

If there鈥檚 a general election soon will you be standing again?

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De Cordova

Well I鈥檓 pleased to say that my local party have reselected me to be their candidate in any upcoming general election and I will continue to hopefully represent the people of Battersea.听 But, you know, I will campaign hard, I鈥檝e got a good track record as a community champion for my constituents and I want to remain that way.

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White

Marsha De Cordova.

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Now teaching makeup on the radio.听 Bit of a challenge we thought but last week鈥檚 masterclass by Lucy Edwards seems to have come off.听 Anne Wilkins was certainly pleased to hear it.听 She said: 鈥淚鈥檓 totally blind and don鈥檛 know many visually impaired people who鈥檝e experimented as I have but, I remember as a teenager putting on nail varnish by myself and ruining a valued dressing table my mother had by spilling the varnish all over it.鈥�

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Inge-Axt Simmonds says: 鈥淰ery knowledgeable and giving every woman, visually impaired or not, confidence to have a go.鈥�

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And the programme reminded Simon Kew of a hugely inspiring artist 鈥� Sargie Mann 鈥� who gradually went blind over years, yet he was so life affirming, Simon says, even about the fading light which was so central to his work.

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Well long-time listeners may remember the interview we did with Sargie Mann a few years ago.

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Now when the first one appeared almost 60 years ago talking newspapers seemed to be an idea whose time had come.听 Parts of the local rag read on to tape by volunteers when recorders were just becoming cheaper and the cassette machine was on the horizon.听 Well the initial trickle became a flood, there are now over 500 talking newspapers throughout the UK, all independent, although many of them are members of an umbrella group 鈥� the Talking Newspaper Federation.听 They鈥檝e had to keep up with technology, of course, the cassette gave way to the memory stick and some are now entirely online.听 And despite their growth in numbers there鈥檚 always been an uneasy feeling throughout the movement itself that they weren鈥檛 reaching the numbers of visually impaired people that they should be.听

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It鈥檚 a problem which has been bothering Jonathan Horniblow.听 He ran a talking newspaper himself for a time and has a working background in IT. 听His new invention gives access to talking newspaper through a smart speaker.听 At this point I鈥檇 better declare an interest 鈥� I鈥檓 the long-time president of the Talking Newspaper Federation.听

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Jonathan explained his idea to Lee Kumutat.

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Horniblow

It doesn鈥檛 really provide a talking newspaper itself; it allows talking newspapers to distribute to people in new ways or ways that bridge a technology gap.

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Kumutat

So, explain what the difference is, how would they get their content on to your new platform?

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Horniblow

Most of them still post tapes or CDs or memory sticks out and the listener would have a special player but the problem with that is you鈥檙e reliant on the post and of course if something goes wrong 鈥� if we have snow or a strike or the player goes wrong or there鈥檚 a copying problem 鈥� and there鈥檚 that time delay of getting the memory sticks back.听 So, a lot of them are moving to putting information on the web but it鈥檚 still the case that almost three quarters of over-75s, who鈥檝e lost their sight with age, don鈥檛 actually use the internet and 50% of them they just don鈥檛 want to start now.听 So, rather than force them on to using a website I鈥檓 hoping that by providing everything from a way of telephone dialling in, right through to these modern assistants like Amazon Alexa and Google 麻豆约拍, others are available, then they can really have a choice at both ends of the technology gap and of course retaining the current ways they listen in the middle.听 It鈥檚 not supposed to be either/or, it鈥檚 supposed to broaden that choice, as technology moves on.

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What talking newspapers aren鈥檛 鈥� they鈥檙e not something like the Observer or the Guardian or the Sun, just read to you, they are more local content and it鈥檚 really up to the editor of each talking newspaper what they put in there.听 So, it鈥檚 not like you鈥檙e just going to open Alexa and say read me the Manchester Evening News, although, of course, many local newspapers might have their own app but it will probably read it in a synthetic voice and you鈥檒l just get the items one after another.

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The nice thing about talking newspapers they鈥檝e got that little bit if personality to them.听 And, you know, you are reliant on the editors knowing what you want to listen to but generally it鈥檚 a good mix.

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Kumutat

So, what would one have to do then to hear the newspaper that they were used to hearing 鈥� what would they say to their Alexa/Google 麻豆约拍?

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Horniblow

My talking newspaper is what鈥檚 called a skill, think of it like an app for a Google 麻豆约拍, they call them skills.听 So, it鈥檚 called My Talking Newspaper and initially they would say:听 Enable My Talking Newspaper.听 So, if you were to say:听 Sheffield, it would list the talking newspapers near Sheffield and you鈥檇 be able to hear immediately your local talking newspaper in Sheffield.

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Kumutat

If people are happy receiving what they are receiving with their USB sticks or even cassettes and this has been working for the last 20 years why reinvent the wheel, in a way?

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Horniblow

I don鈥檛 think it鈥檚 reinventing the wheel; it鈥檚 making use of new technology as it becomes available and it is very much the case that voice assistants are actually more popular amongst an older demographic because the younger people, they鈥檝e got their apps and their iPhones and their mobiles.听 And when you think of the cost of accessibility hardware and software just five years ago, there鈥檚 now devices available for around 拢25 that you can just talk to, you don鈥檛 need a monitor or a big computer running or a keyboard.听 With things like Alexa you can ask it to remind you to take tablets or appointments.

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Kumutat

But there are objections to voice assistants aren鈥檛 there, people worry about their privacy, people worry about them listening in, do you really see this taking off?

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Horniblow

It鈥檚 undoubtedly taking off right now, if you look at the鈥�

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Kumutat

But for the demographic that you鈥檙e looking at, say the over-75s, that tend to be a bit resistant to this, is it really being embraced by them?

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Horniblow

It actually is and even more than I thought.听 Obviously, I mean there is a lot of scepticism but I think once people realise that my service or indeed any service like that, doesn鈥檛 know who鈥檚 speaking to it, so I don鈥檛 know the person is from what their name is, what account they are, anything about them, it鈥檚 completely anonymous.

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Kumutat

I鈥檓 really curious about your motivation for putting together this service, Jonathan, because what are you gaining from it 鈥� is it monetised in any way?

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Horniblow

The motivation isn鈥檛 financial but talking newspapers that are on it make a small contribution each to the overall cost of the service but the listener is never charged, so the listener never has to subscribe or sign up or pay for anything and it certainly works out as a saving for a talking newspaper because they only need to add a couple of listeners or switch a couple of listeners from using memory stick players to cover the cost of the service.听 It鈥檚 satisfying to see the number of users and it鈥檚 satisfying to see statistics like the average Alexa skill 鈥� they call it retention rate, in other words for most Alexa skills between 2 and 3% of people come back and use it again.听 With the My Talking Newspaper skill it鈥檚 around 45-50%.

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Kumutat

How many talking newspapers have signed up?

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Horniblow

At the moment there鈥檚 only around 30.听 So, it鈥檚 a small portion but it is growing and I would certainly be thrilled to see more people getting on there.听 But because of copyright I can鈥檛 just say, right, I鈥檝e found a talking newspaper I鈥檓 going to stick them on there, they have to opt in and actively be part of it.听 But I really hope that more will and certainly this is being listener driven because the last few talking newspapers that have signed up have actually come as a result of listeners saying can we hear it on the Alexa.

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Kumutat

Why do you think it is taking a bit of time for talking newspapers to sign up?

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Horniblow

Committees are often populated by very conservative 鈥� with a small c 鈥� and technically sceptical people and again it鈥檚 really only when the listeners start saying 鈥� look, you know, there鈥檚 this device can we listen on it 鈥� that the uptake has started to pick up.

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Kumutat

The Talking Newspaper Federation has said that listener numbers are dwindling and have been for the last 10 years or so, why do you think your service would see those increasing, how would you get those increasing?

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Horniblow

As far as dwindling listener numbers goes, yes some are but some talking newspapers are increasing the numbers and some are even starting.听 There鈥檚 Basingstoke Talking Newspaper has just actually started and hopefully it will pick up.

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Kumutat

It鈥檚 a really interesting model, isn鈥檛 it, is it really about demand, do these newspapers kind of get set up because blind people are clambering for them or is it about people seeing a need for a service and providing it?

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Horniblow

So, there are 500 talking newspapers and they have an average of 120 listeners each.听 If I鈥檓 completely honest, having been on talking newspaper committees myself and recorded, there is an aspect of the whole of the 听social thing of being part of a talking newspaper, so it鈥檚 not just for the listeners.听 I think it鈥檚 a little bit of both.

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White

Jonathan Horniblow.

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The Talking Newspaper Federation told us:

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Talking Newspaper Federation statement

Anything that gives print disabled people more options to access their local talking newspaper is a good thing.听 While we don鈥檛 think it鈥檚 unfair to charge, talking newspapers are small organisations and have to balance this cost against what might be a very low annual income and the number of listeners with an Alexa.

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And that鈥檚 it for today.听 Comments welcome, as usual.听 You can leave a voice message on 0161 8361339.听 You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk or go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch from where you can also download podcasts of the programme.听 From me, Peter White, producer, this week, Emma Tracey and the team, goodbye.