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TX:听 24.07.2018听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 KEVIN CORE

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White

Good Evening.听 Tonight, a new UK standard for assistance dogs. We鈥檒l be finding out why it鈥檚 needed and the possible implications for guide dogs owners.听 And what would you do with $25,000 to come up with an adventure?

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Clip

Ooh, and I鈥檓 over, and it should be almost home safe and dry.

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White

Well how does hanging off a sea stack at 400 feet sound?听 The blind adventurer Red Szell鈥檚 been there, done that.听 We鈥檒l be telling you what鈥檚 next.

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But first, there was a time when Guide Dogs were the only assistance dog in town.听 The first training school in the UK opened back in the 1930s and the dog guiding a blind man or woman quickly became a familiar and much-admired sight.听 But in more recent times dogs are increasingly being used to help other groups of disabled people.听 Those with hearing loss, mobility difficulties, people with epilepsy and with emotional problems.听 Well that鈥檚 now led to the idea that there ought to be some kind of national standard to which dog and owner partnerships would have to adhere when operating in public.听 As the plans stand dogs from the Guide Dogs organisation will be regarded as meeting the standard.听 We鈥檝e now seen the draft consultation document which contains a flavour of the voluntary assessment which might be undertaken in order for a dog to meet the proposed new UK standard.

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Noise distraction 鈥� the dog should remain composed when something is dropped behind them.听 They can show a startled response but should not show any continued or disproportionate anxious behaviour after approximately 30 seconds of the startled stimulus.听 At the end of the public access assessment the dog applicant partnership will be classed as pass, defer or not suitable.

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White

That was drawn up by the working group from the Office for Disability Issues.听 One of the groups they鈥檙e talking to is Assistance Dogs UK.听 That鈥檚 an umbrella group which includes Guide Dogs.听 Their chair is Peter Gorbing and I asked him why this new standard is necessary after many years without one.

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Gorbing

Well I think there鈥檚 several reasons.听 Firstly, there鈥檚 no legal clarity really about what constitutes an assistance dog in the UK.听 So, I think everyone recognises that it is a dog that鈥檚 well trained to work alongside a person with a disability.听 But there is no legal definition of it.听 As you said in your introduction, demand is growing as different organisations setting up and in fact many of the newer people who are training their dogs themselves are saying look actually we want to know what the standard is that we need to reach.

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White

What evidence is there that there鈥檚 really a demand for this?听 I mean it鈥檚 been described as something that business wants but do we know that?

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Gorbing

Well one of the problems we have at the moment is that people who run businesses really don鈥檛 understand what their legal obligations are in relation to public access rights for assistance dogs.听 So, I speak a lot to shop owners, to people, for example, like airlines who are saying look, we鈥檙e very happy to widen access for people with assistance dogs but we just don鈥檛 really understand what the current rules are because there鈥檚 nothing to tell us 鈥� we have to, as the business owner, we have to make the assessment whether the dog is trained to a level that we think is acceptable.听 Now you can imagine when you鈥檙e taking a dog onto a plane that鈥檚 a pretty big ask to ask of airlines, so I think we deserve to give them more clarity so that they鈥檙e able to take their legal responsibilities seriously.

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White

One of the biggest examples that affect guide dog owners of course are: a. restaurants and b. taxis.听 Is this something that would help with that or is it going to provide them with more excuses to refuse to serve people?

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Gorbing

Well I think that鈥檚 a very good example, Peter, where I do think that it will help to massively clarify the situation because it鈥檚 so unclear at the moment there鈥檚 lots of wriggle room for people to get out and say oh well I didn鈥檛 understand, I didn鈥檛 understand the system.听 We need to get a system that people are absolutely crystal clear what their legal obligations are.

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White

You don鈥檛 think it鈥檚 enough to have a law, which we actually have, that says they must take guide dog owners and then enforce it?

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Gorbing

Well yes but the trouble is that there are lots of grey edges around the edge of that and consequently there鈥檚 a relatively small number of cases ever get taken and a relatively smaller number of cases that ever get won around this.听 So, in principle yes but in practice there is too much wiggle room.

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White

We mentioned that there was going to be some kind of test and that鈥檚 being discussed at the moment but what kind of things will the test cover?

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Gorbing

Well I think it鈥檚 probably better to call it an assessment in a way than a test because it鈥檚 going to be looking at really whether someone working alongside with their dog has done the kind of training and the preparation to take the dog into different public places, their calmness around traffic, ability to negotiate crowds.听 So, that actually they can really say look we know this dog can work safely in a public place and public access really isn鈥檛 and mustn鈥檛 be an issue because we have to make sure the public access rights are opened up to many more people with an assistance dog.

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White

Not everyone is happy about this idea.听 David Cavill is the chair of the Pet Education and Behaviour Council.

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Cavill

My worry is that there will be pressure from some of the major charities who want to stay in control of their funds, that鈥檚 what it boils down to, and some animal trainers who are pushing it forward merely for their own advantage and not because there is any perceived or established need.

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White

Peter Gorbing, has David Cavill got a point, is this a case of your organisation, maybe other organisations, trying to big up your parts and be the arbiter of what is and what isn鈥檛 an assistance dog?

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Gorbing

No, I think that鈥檚 so far from the reality.听 I mean firstly, David鈥檚 wrong, the initiative wasn鈥檛 from us, the initiative has come from other organisations 鈥� owners鈥�/trainers鈥� organisations 鈥� that aren鈥檛 part of the 鈥� at the moment 鈥� the accredited system.听 So, we鈥檝e been asked to be part of that because we bring a lot of experience and skills to the ideas.听 But no, we鈥檙e very happy that there should be many more assistance dogs鈥� owners, we just want it to be right for people and for dogs.

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White

Can we talk specifically about guide dogs for a moment?听 Now Guide Dogs, the organisation, are part of your organisation 鈥� they鈥檙e affiliated 鈥� they鈥檝e told us they鈥檙e happy for the consultation process to take its course.听 And of course, as plans stand their partnerships won鈥檛 be required to take this test.听 But I can imagine some people 鈥� some guide dog owners 鈥� thinking yeah but how long for.听 Once you鈥檝e got a bureaucracy and you鈥檝e got these kinds of tests in place how long is it going to be before this becomes not voluntary but required?

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Gorbing

Well the idea at the moment is that organisations that are part of ADUK that have either been accredited by the International Guide Federation or Assistance Dogs International, they鈥檒l be grandfathered into the system.听 I mean partly because of the sheer volume of dogs that they鈥檙e training that it鈥檚 going to be quite difficult initially.听 I think there鈥檚 a way of looking at this very negatively.听 To me this really opens up the possibilities, I don鈥檛 think there is any likelihood on the horizon, I mean the government have said there鈥檚 going to be no legislation around this.听 Who knows, maybe you鈥檙e right eventually that some frameworks will be put in place?听 But it鈥檚 very much about people saying look we want to do the right things and actually we need to develop a degree of self-regulation, that鈥檚 what organisations do.

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White

But there鈥檚 talk in this consultation document of partnerships being passed or classed as not suitable.听 Successful dogs getting a chip to prove that they have passed and are regarded as satisfactory.听 It does sound potentially scary, almost big brotherish.

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Gorbing

I don鈥檛 think it needs to.听 I see what you鈥檙e saying and not everything in this document and this consultation that ADUK would necessarily agree with but I think that鈥檚 the questions that we鈥檙e out for consultation, we want to find out what people think, we want to get feedback on that.听 But the reality is that dogs are microchipped in this country, that鈥檚 a legal necessity and if by doing that we鈥檙e creating some kind of register, eventually, of dogs that are assistance dogs that may or may not be a good idea and that鈥檚 really what we want to get feedback from people on.

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White

This is being described as a voluntary system鈥�

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Gorbing

Yes.

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White

鈥�at the moment.听 It begs the question 鈥� who would volunteer to have this done if they didn鈥檛 need to?听 The organisations are going to have their own rules may people not just see that as one extra element of hoops they don鈥檛 have to go through?

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Gorbing

On the basis of the number of people who come to our organisations asking how they can get their dogs assessed because they want to have a card in their hands that says their dog is recognised as an assistance dog, I think there鈥檚 going to be actually a lot of people who want to do that.

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White

That was Peter Gorbing.听 Well the Department for Work and Pensions said they were encouraging the assistance dogs sector to work together to create a UK standard which can act as the mark of a well-trained assistance dog.听 And Guide Dogs told us that as they are exempted from the assessment, as it鈥檚 currently outlined, they did not feel it was their place to comment further.

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Now I鈥檓 just taking a moment to ask for your help with something for an upcoming episode of In Touch and it鈥檚 a bit different.听 We鈥檙e diving into the world of science fiction, a genre which from Gulliver鈥檚 Travels to the latest blockbusters like A Quiet Place has never lost its fascination with blindness.

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Clip

He leaned closer.听

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鈥淵ou know what I鈥檓 blind, that鈥檚 what I am, blind as a bat.听 Everybody鈥檚 as blind as a bat, except you, why aren鈥檛 you blind as a bat?鈥�

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鈥淚 don鈥檛 know.鈥澨� I told him.

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鈥淚t鈥檚 that bloody comet, that鈥檚 what鈥檚 done it 鈥� green shooting stars and now everybody鈥檚 blind as a bat.听 You see green shooting stars?鈥�

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鈥淣o.鈥澨� I admitted.

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鈥淭here you are, proves it, you didn鈥檛 see 鈥榚m, you aren鈥檛 blind.鈥�

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White

We heard there John Windham鈥檚 classic The Day of the Triffids.听 Science fiction films, books, comics are infused with stories about blindness and visual impairment from HG Wells to X-Men.听 We want you to tell us about the sci-fi that has influenced you and what you鈥檝e thought of it.听 You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk and there are more ways to contact us, you can hear them at the end of the programme.

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Now blind author and adventurer Red Szell has just taken on a challenge which is likely to test him to the limit.听 And that鈥檚 the idea.听 He鈥檚 one of three winners of an international award worth $25,000.听 He had to come up with a challenge which would change the perception of what visually impaired people can achieve.听 If you鈥檙e scared of heights, block your ears.

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Clip

Coming out over a bulge that bulges out about two feet, so my legs are about two feet in front of me underneath the bulge.听 My upper body is leaning out, I鈥檝e got hold of something with one hand and the other.听 Oh, the end is nearly in sight, well it would be if I could see it.听 Is there a foothold anyway?听

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First blind man on top of the Old Man of Hoy, how鈥檚 it been?

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Absolutely bloody marvellous, dreams do come true.

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White

Well that was Red Szell 450 feet up the Old Man of Hoy five years ago.听 Now that鈥檚 a sheer sea stack off the Orkney Islands.听 But climbing is only one element in the challenge he鈥檚 set himself.

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Szell

My project is an extreme blind triathlon.听 I want to climb another sea stack, surprisingly enough, called Am Buachaille which is in the far northwest corner of Scotland just beneath Cape Wrath.听 And just getting there is a challenge.听 It鈥檚 a 10-mile cross country off-road tandem ride to get to the top of the cliff, then we abseil 200 metres down to the water鈥檚 edge, strip off, swim 30 metres to the base of the sea stack and then we鈥檝e got 90 minutes to climb 213 metres and abseil back off before the tide comes in and cuts us off.

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White

And why this particular project?

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Szell

It鈥檚 the third and most extreme of the big three Scottish sea stacks and to be perfectly honest without the financial backing of the Holman prize there鈥檚 just no way I could even attempt it.听 Just getting the kit up there is going to be a major project and to be honest I also want to film it for posterity, just to show what it is possible to do even if you have lost your sight.

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White

So, how are you going to prepare for it?

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Szell

Well fortunately I鈥檓 not doing it until next mid-summer鈥檚 day so I鈥檝e got the best part of a year to lose the flab, give up the beer and curry and just do an awful lot of indoor climbing, training, a lot of outdoor tandem training and keep up with my mad outdoor swimming activities that I do most weekends anyway.

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White

What鈥檚 going to be the toughest part of this challenge?

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Szell

I think actually just doing it against the clock.听 I鈥檓 quite a slow and methodical climber and knowing that with every passing minute the tide is coming in and that I might have to spend the night on a sea stack with my climbing partner, Matthew, is 鈥� well it鈥檒l spur me along to success I hope.

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White

And you mention Matthew, I mean how much help are you going to need to do this?

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Szell

It鈥檒l be Matthew and me, an adventure cameraman called Keith Partridge who filmed things like Touching the Void and also a professional mountain guide called Nick, there basically as the rope safety expert just to make sure that we don鈥檛 do anything that could end with an unfortunate outcome.

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White

Now the prize is given by the San Francisco Lighthouse, which is an American organisation that helps visually impaired people.听 It鈥檚 called the Holman prize, who was Holman?

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Szell

James Holman was an 18th century British explorer who went blind whilst he was serving in Nelson鈥檚 navy and he was sent to a retirement home in a monastery and just got itchy feet.听 And so, he decided to take himself off to China and India, all by himself, and just travelled around the world and wrote up his experiences in a journal.听 And has actually become quite famous amongst the exploring fraternity as the blind adventurer and so the prize was named in his honour when it was founded in 2017.

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White

Now I know you鈥檙e aware of the irony that you could well end up succeeding and still find yourself next day walking into a bollard in your local street or pouring water everywhere because you鈥檙e making a cup of tea, all those irritations of blindness, what do you think is the real value of this kind of extreme sporting challenge to blind people?听 Does it make us feel better or does it just make us feel even more inadequate?

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Szell

I spent 20 years nursing my wounds and feeling disenabled and disinclined to go out and challenge myself and actually it was only by getting back into climbing that I felt any sense of physical improvement.听 I think my sight loss had begun to rule the way that I viewed myself.听 And actually, to get better at something is taking one back for the good guys and if all I do is encourage somebody to take up yoga or Pilates or tandem bike riding and just get out of the house and discover the joy of doing a physical activity with other people and discover that other people can be incredibly helpful then I think that鈥檚 job done.听 So, okay I know I鈥檓 doing it in a rather extreme and eye-catching way or headline grabbing way but for me it鈥檚 just important that other people don鈥檛 waste years of beating themselves up on the sofa going why me.

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White

Red Szell, very best of luck, we鈥檇 like to keep tabs on your progress.听 Thanks for joining us.

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Szell

Thank you very much Peter.

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White

And that鈥檚 it for tonight.听 Whether you鈥檙e climbing a sea stack or walking your guide dog, we always welcome your reactions.听 Just don鈥檛 mix the two.听 You can call our action line for 24 hours after the programme on 0800 044 044.听 You can email in touch@bbc.co.uk or you can click on contact us on our website.听 And you can also download tonight鈥檚 edition of In Touch and many previous programmes too.听 From me, Peter White, producer Kevin Core and the team, goodbye.