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Peter White talks to RNIB's new CEO Sally Harvey, who outlines some of her plans for the future.

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IN TOUCH – Sally Harvey, RNIB Chief Executive

TX:Ìý 07.11.2017Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

PRODUCER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý CHERYL GABRIEL

White

It’s generally acknowledged to be a tough time for charities and the last year has been a particularly tricky one for the RNIB – the Royal National Institute of Blind People.Ìý We know it’s been struggling with a deficit and they’ve undergone a major reorganisation to work out their priorities.Ìý They’ve also not had a permanent leader.Ìý Sally Harvey has only been acting Chief Executive over this period.Ìý Well now that at least has been settled – she’s got the permanent job although even that wasn’t without controversy.Ìý Last week we heard why the Shadow Disability Minister, Marsha de Cordova, was disappointed that no visually-impaired candidate even reached the final stages of the interviewing process, let alone getting the job.

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So for today’s programme I’ve been talking to Sally Harvey about these and a great many other matters as well.Ìý She said on her appointment that the RNIB was at a turning point, I asked her what she meant.

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Harvey

The turning point for me is about making sure we seize all the opportunities right now, that we make the right decisions to really build a sustainable future for us and obviously blind and partially sighted people who we’re there for.

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White

Well there are reasons for thinking that there are worries about the sustainability isn’t it, I mean you’re taking over at a challenging time, not least because in four of the past five years the RNIB has spent more than it’s earned or received via donations and last year alone that gap was more than £8 million.Ìý So really that is a worrying thing in itself, how’s that been allowed to happen?

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Harvey

You’re right Peter there has been a deficit over the last four years.Ìý This year, so 2017-2018, we’re actually budgeting for a small surplus.Ìý So a lot of my time last year was spent in moving us to that more sustainable position but it’s challenging times.

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White

Aren’t you always budgeting for a surplus?

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Harvey

No we’re not.Ìý So I think that’s an important point for people to hear is that we have made decisions in the past to budget at a deficit, to use some of our reserves in order that we can invest in services to blind and partially sighted people and invest in our future.Ìý The reason we need to change that plan is some of that investment hasn’t delivered the return that we hoped for and expected and therefore we have had to make changes to that plan.

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White

Can I ask you specifically about that because one reason given for the deficit has been the failure of a policy to generate income from services, like braille production and audio book production, which obviously are services that can generate income, presumably by things like consultancy and by selling services to those in a position to buy them, like councils and companies.Ìý Was this just a miscalculation and was it a bit of a hair-brained scheme?

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Harvey

Certainly not a hair-brained scheme.Ìý You’re right, RNIB runs a number of commercial activities where we expect and indeed do deliver a profit.Ìý I think that’s really important for people to hear – that the commercial activity that we deliver does make a return on that.Ìý What we anticipated and hoped for was that would be more than it actually has been and that’s what has led to us in part needing to make the changes that we have.

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White

Because you couldn’t presumably or didn’t anticipate that it was going to leave you with a deficit?

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Harvey

The deficit was because of the choices how we budget.Ìý The commercial income made a profit, the deficit came about from the fact that we anticipated that the growth would fund our charitable – some of our charitable services.Ìý So Talking Books, for instance, costs us £5 million a year and what we wanted was that commercial income to cover those costs.Ìý So we haven’t been able to cover those costs and therefore we continue to fund those through our charitable income.

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White

But as you’ve said that kind of deficit isn’t sustainable so what’s got to go?Ìý It’s okay talking about what you’ll keep but things will have to go if you’ve got to save that kind of money haven’t they?

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Harvey

Not necessarily.Ìý In some cases we’ve had to make some difficult decisions and I’m sure we’ll talk about some of those but in other cases it’s about doing things differently, it’s about investing in technology, it’s about reaching our customers differently and there are different ways of doing business that are cheaper and more effective ultimately.

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White

Are you now saying you can’t make money out of those kind of things, out of consultancy and is that because people just aren’t in the market to buy it any more – councils are strapped presumably?

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Harvey

No I’d make the point again Peter that our commercial activity is making a return on that investment, so it is making money, it’s just not making as much as we would like it to do.Ìý So in some cases, yes, we will be pulling back from some of that and that’s where some of that investment – the money we’ve invested in consultancy for instance – has been part of some of the area we’ve had to cut back on.

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White

Just talking about what you have to cut back on.Ìý Some people are still concerned that the campaigns department seem to be a casualty of your major reorganisation that you were involved in last year.Ìý Was that about money or was it about not upsetting a government which made it clear it wasn’t happy about charities putting so many resources into campaigning?

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Harvey

Oh well it’s absolutely not about that, we feel very passionate about campaigning and there will be no let-up in terms of campaigning at government or local level where it’s required, so I absolutely need to make that clear that that commitment to campaigning is still very significant.

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White

So have you got a campaigns officer because to maintain a really effective campaign you need a face and an experienced person don’t you?

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Harvey

Our approach to campaigning is two-fold, we have our national campaigning team, that’s headed up by Fazilet Hadi as a Director of Advocacy and that will focus, in terms of parliamentary work, in terms of national policy.Ìý That’s also supported on the ground by our network of campaign staff and volunteers within local communities.Ìý And our approach there is very much being responsive to empowering and supporting local communities, blind and partially sighted people themselves, to campaign on things that are most important to those people locally.

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White

Something called a campaigns’ team is really clear, you know it’s campaigning, how do they get to the people who can actually fall with the thing that they’re concerned about?

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Harvey

Yeah we have campaign coordinators in each of our 12 regional networks across the UK.Ìý They’re the people that should be contacted.Ìý The easiest way to contact RNIB about any of our work is actually by calling the helpline or registering to become a Connect member and through that all blind and partially sighted people will hear a lot more about the work of RNIB.

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White

On last week’s programme RNIB’s new Chair said that though she was happy with your appointment, after all she made it, she was disappointed that was unable to appoint a visually-impaired chief executive and that she thought it was RNIB’s job to prepare visually-impaired people to be able to take up such positions.Ìý How might that be done?

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Harvey

Ultimately like I said I know whether I’m sighted or not that actually my job is to listen to blind and partially sighted people, to make sure that I’m leading an organisation that is constantly alive to that community’s feedback.

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White

But how would you give people more leadership skills?Ìý Wouldn’t the most obvious way be offering more jobs to visually-impaired people?

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Harvey

Absolutely. ÌýSo I think I’ve got a huge commitment to this, I think Ellie talked about how she wanted to work with me to support new ways of doing that.Ìý And one of the things that I’ve done in the last year, we’ve introduced apprenticeship schemes.Ìý So in the last month actually we’ve recruited four new apprentices and that number will grow going forward.Ìý The other thing we’re doing at the moment, and I’m excited about this, albeit it is early stages so just to put that caveat in, is that looking at actually how people progress within work.Ìý I think one of the things that actually Ellie talked about last week was how – like you said – even when people are in employment actually they may not have the promotion opportunities that should be available to them because I know, more than anyone else, kind of how many incredibly talented people there are who happen to have sight loss.Ìý So actually making sure that perhaps they’re offered the right support is something that I’m really keen to explore.

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White

What’s your current ratio of visually-impaired employees to the whole workforce?

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Harvey

Yeah not where I want it to be Peter, it’s around 7% currently.

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White

That is pretty low isn’t it – a single figure percentage point?Ìý And if you can’t do better than that how can you try to persuade other companies to do better?

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Harvey

The percentage is only part of the story.Ìý First of all absolutely that number needs to be higher and I want it to be higher.Ìý But it does hide some facts.Ìý We haven’t been recruiting as much as we might otherwise have done in the last year but where we have, for instance, our helpline – we recently had 10 vacancies and we’re promoting and employing – growing that team – of 10 posts five of those people have sight loss, so 50% of those posts.Ìý Our ECLOs – six of the last seven appointments are either blind or partially sighted…

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White

ECLOs are the liaison officers who work in hospitals to help people who’ve just lost their sight.

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Harvey

That’s right Peter and obviously kind of that particular role – in fact over a third of the ECLOs are actually living with sight loss with themselves and as I say six out of seven of the most recent appointments are living with sight loss themselves.

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White

I asked you about the ratio I mean have you got a target to put that ratio up of blind and partially sighted people to the rest of your workforce – do you have a target?

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Harvey

We haven’t formally set a target that takes us to a particular point but I would be expecting – well certainly I would be going for at least double that if not more Peter but no we haven’t set an actual target.

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White

Can I talk to you about some of the things that we’ve been – have been raised with us over the last year, just to get your reaction to that because judging by those kind of things there’s a feeling around and you see it on chat rooms as well that sometimes the RNIB seems to have lost contact with its customers, its clients, it beneficiaries – whatever you want to call us.Ìý Take for instance the Orbit braille machine which was supposed to be available 12 months ago but still hasn’t seen the light of day.Ìý When we tried to find out what had happened to it getting information – and I must be honest – was like trying to get blood out of a stone, it’s interesting your press officer is with me in the room – and it was very difficult.Ìý And this is what upset people, not that there can’t be production difficulties with a piece of equipment but that people weren’t being told what was happening.

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Harvey

Okay and I can understand that because of course this particular bit of kit, once we’re able to get it to market, is such a life changer isn’t it.Ìý We know how expensive braille readers are so…

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White

That’s why they were cross, you were very happy to talk about it when it seemed to be a life changer 18 months ago and not a word when it’s having a bit of trouble at the factory gate.

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Harvey

Yeah and that’s I think part of the challenge Peter is we were incredibly excited, we still are, and absolutely we’re committed still to bring it to market.Ìý As I think people will know we’re working as part of a group across the world actually to get this product to market…

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White

But why not tell us in that case, I mean it wasn’t your – probably wasn’t your fault, if it’s a production difficulty, why not just tell people what’s going on?

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Harvey

I think you’re right.Ìý So yeah so in terms of, as I said, it is experiencing production challenges, we want to make sure at the point it comes to the market in the UK that it is working effectively.Ìý It is very new production techniques, so the reason it’s taking so long is because it is something very new to the market.Ìý There isn’t anything secret about that, I think it’s more the hesitation of I suppose not wishing to raise expectations further Peter.Ìý So I’m sorry if it’s…

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White

Well they’ve been raised.

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Harvey

Well absolutely and I think the last thing I would want to do is maybe kind of repeat the mistakes of that by giving you any further kind of dates that may then not come to fruition.Ìý But you will definitely be the first to know, the moment we can get it on to the market because it’s hugely exciting news and I’m – it’s such a shame that something so positive, as you say, has become kind of almost a bad news story.Ìý That’s such a shame that that’s happened.

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White

And then there was the business of the sale of the box, which was bequeathed for the use of blind people, at the Proms in someone’s will.Ìý And people got upset about that.Ìý This is what David Small said to us about it:

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Small

They want to use it for other services, they say, but what worries me about that is when they say they’re going to use it for other services, it just goes into the coffers and who knows what happens to that money.Ìý And they will raise quite a bit of money because those boxes are quite valuable.Ìý And I say well why can’t that money be hypothecated to music because they do spend so little time on music and it’s so important?

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White

David there was talking of course about the money and what would be done with the money and the other thing that people were upset about, him included, was just the lack of consultation, it seemed to come out of the blue.

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Harvey

One of the challenges of working in an organisation, any business, is you have to make sometimes some difficult decisions.Ìý In this case we had to move quickly in order to secure the sale so we weren’t able to…

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White

So was this about the finances really then?

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Harvey

No, not in particular, it’s a combination of yes we’ve talked around our financial position and the need to move away from a deficit, so of course it would – I would be communicating wrongly if I was to suggest that it didn’t make a contribution to that deficit.Ìý But it’s also about making sure that RNIB, at any point in time, is delivering services that make I suppose the biggest difference and that’s where it’s really difficult, it’s a real difficult call when services such as the Albert Hall, of course for those who used it, was an incredibly valuable service.Ìý The Albert Hall isn’t going anywhere and so actually we were – we had to take into account that actually people could still go to the Albert Hall, the Albert Hall still does schemes for disabled people to be able to go and I think we haven’t yet got the details of it but we are also looking at making further arrangements for blind and partially sighted people to have access to tickets.Ìý So we were reassured that people would still be able to use the Albert Hall but yes we need to make decisions because there is so much that we need to do with the relatively small amount of money that we do have.

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White

And one more, easily our biggest reaction over the year was the proposed sale of some of the specialist holiday hotels that so many people told us they loved and valued and again felt unconsulted.Ìý I mean can you bring us up to date with that for a start – what is the plan?Ìý We’ve kind of heard whispers of being able to save some of those hotels, what’s the current position?

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Harvey

Yes the position is there’s three hotels we’re talking about here, one of which – the Lauriston – has been now sold and is being run, it’s being refurbished currently and is still being run as a hotel.Ìý The staff we employed have all been transferred to that new employer.

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White

So as a specialist hotel for visually-impaired people but inviting other sighted guests?

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Harvey

Which as it was before when we ran it, it was also – took many sighted guests.

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White

And the other two?

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Harvey

The other two are still in the process of negotiations, I think most listeners will know that RNIB doesn’t actually own those hotels.Ìý So the actual details of those sales I’m not at liberty to share because there are other parties in that mix.Ìý

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White

Are you hoping they’ll survive as specialist hotels?

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Harvey

Absolutely, the expectation, as it currently stands, is that they will both be sold as going concern hotels, which I’m delighted to hear that that is where we’re currently at.

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White

But there does seem to be a connection with those three stories.Ìý To put it simply and I hope not sentimentally, has the RNIB lost its heart?

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Harvey

Oh gosh I really hope not and I don’t believe we have, I mean blind and partially sighted people are at the heart of the organisation, in fact it’s one of our values.Ìý We’re doing huge amounts to make sure that as we make difficult decisions – and like I said I’m not going to shy away, there has been some difficult things we’ve had to decide upon in the last year – but the ambition going forward – I talked at the beginning of my interview with you about that vision for the future Peter and for me customer plays out time and time again.Ìý What I said to the interview panel was I wanted to ensure that RNIB firstly delivers great customer experience, that blind and partially sighted people are at our heart, that through our growing Connect community that people can be in touch with each other, supporting each other, being empowered and supported.Ìý I’ve talked about employing more people with sight loss, it really is the future, we’ve got to get this right because we are an organisation of blind and partially sighted people. ÌýSo no absolutely we’re committed to getting this right.

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White

Just on that subject and connecting with people.Ìý RNIB has for a while now had membership don’t most donors think that when they give to the RNIB that it has a responsibility to all blind and partially sighted people and don’t most blind and partially sighted people think that the institute is there to serve them equally?Ìý I just wonder what the point of membership is.

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Harvey

Membership isn’t something that blind and partially sighted people have to pay for, it’s not a club in that respect, it’s actually part of a growing movement.Ìý That’s the emphasis we’re putting on it, is being part of their organisation.Ìý So RNIB Connect is growing, over 30,000 people have signed up to say they want to be more connected to RNIB

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White

If I were to ask you to sum up in a sentence what you would like to have achieved, let’s say – let’s give you five years, in the next five years, what would you say?

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Harvey

In five years’ time Peter I want RNIB to be wholly relevant to the two million people living with sight loss, valued in the way that it is delivering fantastic services and is connecting blind and partially sighted people to each other.

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White

Well we wish you luck, it’s in all our interests that you succeed.Ìý Sally Harvey thank you.

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Harvey

Thank you Peter.

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White

Well tell us what you think and what you’d like to see the RNIB doing over the next five years.Ìý You can call our action line for 24 hours after tonight’s programme on 0800 044 044, you can email intouch@bbc.co.uk or click on contact us from our website, that’s .Ìý And that’s it, from me Peter White, producer Cheryl Gabriel, and the team, goodbye.

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