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THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.听 BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 麻豆约拍 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

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IN TOUCH 鈥� Specialist Travel, Audio-described Circus

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TX:听 01.08.2017听 2040-2100

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PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听听 LEE KUMUTAT

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White

Good evening.

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Circus music

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White

Tonight:听 It鈥檚 a constant theme on In Touch that there鈥檚 not much that can鈥檛 be enjoyed when you鈥檙e visually-impaired.听 But circuses?听 We look at the role of audio description to introduce visually-impaired children to clowns, contortionists and the rest of the circus paraphernalia.

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And after last week鈥檚 special on technology your down-to-earth solutions to down-to-earth problems.

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But first, TravelEyes is a company which offers holidays to visually-impaired and sighted people.听 But with a twist.听 For a reduced price the sighted holiday-maker agrees to guide and describe attractions for the visually-impaired traveller while blind customers pay the full whack.听 But Simone Gould has contacted us to question an aspect of their policy which she thinks discriminates against her.听 Simone has travelled happily with the company before, as well as her visual impairment she has some hearing loss.听 And recently she was very upset to be told, after looking to book with them again, that in future she鈥檇 need to bring her own guide.听 TravelEyes told her:听 鈥淲e鈥檇 need you to bring your own sighted guide on all future holidays with us, this is so that they can support you with your hearing impairment as our sighted travellers aren鈥檛 expected or trained to assist with anything additional to vision impairment.鈥�

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Well Amal Latif set up and runs TravelEyes, he is himself blind, and I asked him why this decision had been taken.

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Latif

When someone has additional needs then we do require that they bring somebody with them and in this case, yes, if Simone鈥檚 been with us before we鈥檝e probably had a discussion about the level of her hearing impairment and at the time 鈥� I don鈥檛 know 鈥� I鈥檓 not privy to the conversation 鈥� but if it seemed like it was going to be okay that her hearing wasn鈥檛 a huge problem then we would have taken her on but I guess the big test comes when you鈥檙e out there, live, in location, and if the tour managers realise that additional support is required that鈥檚 why she would have to bring somebody with her.听 Our sighted travellers are just members of the general public who like the idea of coming on a trip where they鈥檝e been asked to guide and describe the sights for which they receive a reduction in price.听 But if we ask them to do other duties as well, like to add that level of communication or the support that somebody with additional needs needs then that鈥檚 a totally different ball game and鈥�

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White

Isn鈥檛 this rather exaggerating what would be necessary in this case?听 I mean Simone makes the point that all she really needs is someone to remember to speak a little more clearly and maybe a little more loudly.听 You don鈥檛 surely need to go on a massive course to do that?

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Latif

If that鈥檚 what you鈥檙e saying you don鈥檛 need to go on a massive course but our experience is if people generally have a hard of hearing problem and if it has become an issue it means that they just can鈥檛 hear what鈥檚 happening in noisy places.听 And we鈥檝e probably worked out that she鈥檚 struggled to hear what鈥檚 going on around her and it鈥檚 not healthy and safe for us to expect our sighted travellers to be supporting her for something that they鈥檙e not trained to do.

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White

But this is the kind of thing that blind people often get told 鈥� when there are problems with people on mainstream holidays the implication is either that you鈥檙e causing other people more trouble or you鈥檙e causing other people on the tour more trouble.听 Isn鈥檛 the fact really that Simone will know how to manage her own disability and how to tell people how they can help her?

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Latif

Well TravelEyes is the world鈥檚 most accessible travel company, so what we鈥檙e actually offering is we want Simone to come on the holidays and we want her to feel fully supported on the trips as well.听 So if she does bring this person we offered them a reduced rate and no other travel company out there in the market offers that level of reduction to a carer.

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White

But she may still find herself paying for two people, whereas the other visually-impaired people who鈥檒l go on your tour will only be paying for one?

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Latif

So what Simone will be getting is a reduced rate for her sighted carer, so if you did go to any other travel company she鈥檇 be paying double.听 TravelEyes is a company, as opposed to a charity, and I鈥檓 blind myself and the reason why I set it up was because I felt frustration in the hands of mainstream travel companies. 听I totally see that if that is the situation, if she would have to pay herself then it is probably would work out a bit more expensive than her but the upside is she鈥檚 paying less with us than any other travel company and she would feel fully supported.

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White

Some people might think that this is an easy way for TravelEyes to sell two holidays for the price of one.听 It means one less person you have to go to recruit to do this rather unusual thing on the holiday.

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Latif

Well sighted travellers do go for a reduction so it doesn鈥檛 directly help us but we need to operate professionally, safely on the trip for the benefit of everyone.听 So we need to take into account the majority of our customers.听 We want everyone to have a wonderful holiday and this is a very important step.听 So if something happened we鈥檇 be sat round the table here saying why did TravelEyes mismanage the situation and not put the right support in place.

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White

I mean it does seem to me that the assessment here of who needs perhaps more help and who doesn鈥檛 is a bit arbitrary?

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Latif

Well we are professionals in blindness and we鈥檙e professionals in travel but we don鈥檛 claim to be professionals in additional needs.听 So we discuss with that person how they would like to be supported, what elements they need and on that basis we decide a recommended way forward which we would have done with Simone.听 So some people do tend to 鈥� they can tend to understate the level of support that they need.

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White

I should just say, as you鈥檝e said that, I mean Simone says that her level of need was understood and that if there was a problem it should have been discussed with her.

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Latif

I can鈥檛 really comment on the situation, I鈥檓 not familiar with it personally myself but we did discuss it with her, we have detailed booking forms but then on the trips her tour managers realise that the level of support that they need is beyond what should be required of our sighted travellers who are on holiday too.

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White

Amal Latif.听 Your comments are welcome.听 And we鈥檇 also like to know the holiday experience which works best for you in catering for visual impairment.

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Now, have you ever been to one of these?

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Circus music

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Well Lennon and McCartney鈥檚 music captures completely for me the atmosphere of circus but what would I know 鈥� I鈥檝e never even been to one, never actually thought there was any point that as a totally blind person there鈥檇 be anything I could get from it.听 But Circus Starr doesn鈥檛 agree.听 It鈥檚 a touring circus which specialises in introducing children to the Big Top whose circumstances have meant that they鈥檝e never been before, including children who are blind and partially sighted.听 They鈥檝e borrowed techniques, such as audio-description, which for many years has been used effectively to make TV, film and theatre more accessible by describing what鈥檚 going on in the gaps between dialogue.

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Judith Halle from Circus Starr has been telling me more about the company and how the project will work.

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Halle

Circus Starr is a touring circus and it鈥檚 for children and families who find it difficult to access live arts events due to their access needs or economic circumstances.听 We are in touch with many, many organisations throughout the country.听 We do a 75 venue tour throughout the country and we donate the tickets for free to organisations.听 And it鈥檚 paid for by local businesses.听 So鈥�

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White

But they find the children?

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Halle

Yes, they鈥檝e got the families there and the children.听 And we also talk to local special schools or support organisations and people like that to see whether they鈥檝e got children or families who can benefit.听 And it just came to our attention that some of the children were not getting the most out of the circus performance because it鈥檚 traditional circus that they鈥檙e seeing, so there鈥檚 clowns, there鈥檚 acrobats, there鈥檚 all sorts of things like that, it鈥檚 all human of course, but without some sort of audio-description they weren鈥檛 getting the most out of the performance because as an acrobat act there won鈥檛 be so much narrative there.听 Our clown, there is narrative with her because she has an interaction with the audience and also with our ringmaster but even so it鈥檚 much more of a visual show than it is a narrative, yeah.

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White

What do you think the biggest challenges are in this kind of audio-description?

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Halle

Getting across, I would say, the sense of excitement, of shock 鈥� some of the stunts the gymnasts do and the contortionists do are quite shocking, you think wow how on earth did they do that and come out of it the other end.

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White

And the audio describers will go into quite a lot of physical detail about what鈥檚 happening?

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Halle

Yes, yes they do.听 So earlier this year, for instance, we鈥檒l be doing the audio described performance in the autumn tour which starts in September but earlier this year they came to one of our shows in Crewe here and they did training with the crew and the performers and also did a dry run on the audio-description as well.听 So they all come very well prepared, they know what it is that they鈥檙e going to see and then they take it from there.

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White

Judith Halle.

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The audio-description is being provided by VocalEyes, which has a long track record in the field.听 Lee Kumutat has been talking to its deputy director, Toby Davey, and first to Roz Chalmers, who鈥檚 a freelance audio describer who has been working on the project.听 Roz began by explaining the challenges of tailoring audio-description to a young audience.

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Chalmers

For the children it was very much about working with Rachel, who was the education and outreach officer, to work out a different way of describing.听 Initially we went in thinking the ringmaster might be able to describe live, as he went along.听 Circus Starr is quite a small organisation and everybody does everything.听 They are so busy.听 And because it鈥檚 a circus act there are health and safety things and a lot of the time the ringmaster was spending time making sure that things were safe for the artists, he just really didn鈥檛 have the time to focus on doing description.听 So in that case we came in to do the description.听 But we also thought about the experience beforehand, so Rachel developed a sensory box, which gave the feeling and the smell of the circus, so we had smells of candy floss, of which there is plenty and hot dogs.听 And we had the feel of greasepaint, which the clown used.听 We had the feel of sawdust, which was in the ring.听 So there was that kind of thing that she went out to groups and introduced them to begin with.

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Kumutat

Much more sensory rather than just the audio.

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Chalmers

Much more sensory, that鈥檚 right.听 So then Toby and I went in to do some visual awareness didn鈥檛 we?

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Davey

Yeah, we were training the performers because before the performance there鈥檒l be a touch tour for Circus Starr.听 So we were training the performers as to how best to run a touch tour, how best to communicate and guide blind and partially-sighted people and young blind and partially-sighted people as well because obviously there鈥檚 probably different things you would do with a young person that you might do with an adult.听 And it was also them getting a sense of how best to get a blind or partially-sighted young person to interact with various bits of props that they were using during the performance.听 And I think it was quite interesting seeing some of the performers, when we did visually awareness training and we did guiding with them and getting them to look down because they were constantly looking up.听 Yeah, yeah, because they鈥檙e not obviously 鈥� when they鈥檙e performing they鈥檙e not really looking down.听 So getting them to go up and down steps and do guiding exercises I think was quite an interesting exercise for them.

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Chalmers

It was because these are people who know exactly where their body is, they have to, they have to know 鈥� they鈥檙e in the air and they don鈥檛 need to know where there is, where the other person鈥檚 hand is who鈥檚 going to catch on to them.听 And just to see them when they try to work without sight they were 鈥� they found it much more difficult than most people because they rely very much on the sense of sight, you take that away from them and they did struggle.听 But the important thing was we were working with an international cast and for some of them English was their 鈥� one of three or four language and it may be their fourth language, so we had to use props in a particular way.听 And what we said to them is what would you like to do, what are you prepared to do.听 So, for example, there was one artist who used an enormous ball, probably about a metre 鈥� yeah a good metre in diameter, and she rolled it up 鈥� she stood on it and rolled it up and down a series of ramps using only her feet and we got the children to stand on this ball, obviously we supported them, we got the children to stand on this ball and walk it up and down, so it builds muscle memory, so when I鈥檓 describing that they got an idea of what that artist might be feeling.

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Kumutat

That sounds like fun but presumably that鈥檚 before the performance but what I was wondering Roz is what happens in terms of audio-description if there鈥檚 audience participation?听 I mean that鈥檚 what happens a lot at children鈥檚 performances, that鈥檚 how you 鈥� you keep children focused and involved often isn鈥檛 it?

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Chalmers

It is.听 I mean you鈥檝e got to 鈥� you鈥檝e got to be 鈥� we鈥檙e actually sitting in the auditorium with Circus Starr, we鈥檙e sitting in the auditorium and there鈥檚 an awful lot of excitement, obviously, going around and the children in Circus Starr 鈥� they are constantly relaxed performances, so children are not sitting there quietly.听 So we have the right equipment so that we could be heard without being invaded by that kind of noise.听 And yes audience participation 鈥� the clown brings out three or four dads from the audience, he does an act where he鈥檚 hit on the noise and he asks somebody to kiss his nose 鈥� kiss it better 鈥� and that sort of thing, we need to get that across, so that the children can join in the fun.

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Kumutat

And what about what the other audience members are doing because if you鈥檙e visually-impaired you can鈥檛 see what the other audience members are doing so if other audience members are waving their hands about in response to something will you say that, will you say people in the audience are nodding or standing up or there鈥檚 an ovation 鈥� will you do that?

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Chalmers

If the people can鈥檛 鈥� anything that people can hear we obviously leave them to hear it but sometimes they played Happy and everybody got up and danced and we told the children that everybody鈥檚 up and dancing and they got up and danced as well.听 So it is very much in that kind of case.听 And when you go to a circus part of the experience is being part of that crowd and feeling 鈥� almost being given the go ahead to do exactly what everybody else is doing if they want to.

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Kumutat

Thank you very much Roz.听 Toby, so give us the headlines on what鈥檚 not to be missed in performances over the summer for children if you鈥檙e wondering what to do with your visually-impaired child over the holidays?

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Davey

For young blind and partially-sighted people we鈥檝e got Northern Ballet鈥檚 Little Mermaid, which is being audio-described.听 There are things like Mamma Mia! that鈥檚 being audio-described; War Horse for slightly older people which is going round the country, that鈥檚 going to be audio-described.听 And for people who are interested in ballet as well Matthew Bourne鈥檚 Cinderella is going to be audio-described in the autumn as well.听 So there鈥檚 lot of audio-described performances for young people out there.

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White

Toby Davey with things to do in the summer and before that Roz Chalmers.听

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And Circus Starr is on the road this autumn with free shows in four locations 鈥� Nuneaton, Milton Keynes, Luton and Leicester.

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Finally, you鈥檝e been having your say about last week鈥檚 programme on new technology.听 Charles Crisp was particularly interested in the growing technique of going online to get objects described to you.听 But he was keen we didn鈥檛 forget about simple low-tech ways of labelling.听 He says that for tins and items with metal lids there are magnetic discs which can be used over and over again.听 鈥淭he most useful one for me,鈥� says Charles, 鈥渉ave been the waterproof labels.听 They can be fixed to clothing and they鈥檒l survive the washer.鈥澨� And he goes on, 鈥淲aterproofing is also handy in the greenhouse and the garden.鈥澨� Charles made some simple tags from thin plastic and stuck the label on them.听 鈥淪o much better,鈥� he says, 鈥渢han elastic bands and Blue Tack.鈥�

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But Les Smithson won鈥檛 hear a word against the humble rubber band.听 He says:听 鈥淚t can be wrapped around bottles so that I can tell my shampoo and toothbrush from other people鈥檚 in the bathroom.听 I also use it to mark my stuff in the fridge and larder and I put it around door handles so I can find my bedroom and bathroom when I鈥檓 staying in strange places like hotels.鈥澨�

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So just the kind of down-to-earth suggestions there that we welcome.

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We鈥檇 also like your help with next week鈥檚 programme.听 NHS England guidelines for providing visually-impaired people with their medical information in a form they can actually read themselves or hear have been in place since 2015.听 So has it made a difference to you?听 Are you getting your doctor鈥檚 letters, your appointment notifications, test results in your preferred format?听 We鈥檒l be putting some of your experiences to NHS England next week.

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You can call our action line with that on 0800 044 044 for 24 hours after the programme.听 Email intouch@bbc.co.uk and you can visit our website to get the podcast.听 From me, Peter White, producer Lee Kumutat and the team, goodbye.

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