麻豆约拍

THIS TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.听 BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS THE 麻豆约拍 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

听

FACE THE FACTS

Life in Gangland London

Presenter:听听听John Waite

Producer: 听听听Joe Kent

TRANSMISSION: Thursday 5th March 2015听 1230-1300听听听听听听听听听听听 麻豆约拍 RADIO 4

听Clip 鈥� Dwayne Simpson

All I wanted was so I could just be calm 听鈥� before there was no way I would walk on the road with my mum, little brother, sister, no one, I鈥檓 not walking with any one of you lot because I don鈥檛 want to draw you into what I鈥檓 in.

听Waite

The voice is Dwayne Simpson鈥檚 and now Dwayne is dead, stabbed to death in the street exactly a year ago, a few months before his 21st birthday.听 The video he made renouncing gang life was never finished and so has never been heard in public before.

听Clip 鈥� Dwayne Simpson

If it wasn鈥檛 for friends I wouldn鈥檛 have a criminal record, I wouldn鈥檛 have been shot, I wouldn鈥檛 have been stabbed, 鈥� these things wouldn鈥檛 have happened.

听Waite

If it wasn鈥檛 for his friends, who were in a gang he says, he wouldn鈥檛 have had a criminal record, wouldn鈥檛 have been shot, wouldn鈥檛 have been stabbed.

听Clip 鈥� Dwayne Simpson

Being a bad boy what鈥檚 that doing for you? 听Bad man tings. What鈥檚 that doing for you, what is being a bad man doing for you?听

Man鈥檚 been through stuff, so man knows.听 I鈥檓 appealing to all you guys out there just leave it alone.

听Waite

This week I鈥檓 entering what you could only call a parallel world in which gangs are simply part of life for generations growing up, where violence or the threat of it is an everyday reality, where children as young as nine are used to carry drugs and hide weapons.听 The 麻豆约拍 Office has identified the 43 areas most affected by gangs in England and Wales, 25 of them in London.听 Which is why for this edition of Face the Facts I鈥檓 investigating life among the capital鈥檚 street gangs.听 What it鈥檚 like to lead a gang, how they recruit new members and how they try to stay one step ahead of the police.听 I鈥檒l also be finding out what it鈥檚 like to grow up in an area dominated by gangs and to lose a loved one to them.

听Music

听For that I鈥檝e come to A Town or Angel Town in Brixton in South London to meet Dwayne Simpson鈥檚 mother, a minister in her local evangelical church, Lorraine Jones, a much loved figure around here, is known to many simply as Mum.

听Jones

Dwayne was standing out here with his closest friend.听 He said we鈥檙e planning to watch football, it starts in the next hour.听 I said, Ok I鈥檓 popping to Iceland, I won鈥檛 be too long.

听Waite

And that was the last you spoke to him?

听Jones

That was the last I spoke to Dwayne conscious.听 When I did get back I packed out the shopping, two of the youth from the area came panting 鈥� Mum, mum Dwayne鈥檚 been stabbed.听 So I said is it serious? He said yes Mum.听 I saw the ambulance and I saw paramedics and so much blood everywhere, they had his chest open.听 I mean John it鈥檚 like I went into a 鈥� it鈥檚 a shock and it鈥檚 ironic that a week before that happened I was actually having a conversation with Dwayne about the transition of death, he made a comment 鈥� 鈥楳um, I don鈥檛 know how long I鈥檝e got to live, we鈥檝e just buried Peter, there鈥檚 so many youth that are dying, I don鈥檛 know if I鈥檒l reach 21.鈥櫶� So I said, well Dwayne don鈥檛 speak like that, the Lord is our protection.

听We come here 鈥� John 鈥� this is where he lay.

听Waite

This is where it actually happened, it鈥檚 festooned with flowers and hundreds of ribbons fluttering on this fence.

听Jones

My sons, on their way to school, they have to pass here.听 So it鈥檚 very traumatic.听 And I always have to look, that鈥檚 where he went to save a soul, which he did manage to save.

听Waite

On February 25th last year Dwayne spotted a friend being chased.听 He tried to intervene and was stabbed three times, once in the heart.听 It was one of two gang related killings in the borough last year, the council told us, classed as such because according to the police both Dwayne and his killer were former members of a notorious Brixton gang.

听Police sirens

听Paramedic

Move out the way please.听 Excuse me, coming through, watch your backs.

听Waite

But it was here at Kings College Hospital that doctors tried to save Dwayne.

听Sutherland

The emergency department is very busy, we鈥檙e a specialist centre for major trauma, so anyone who鈥檚 been stabbed or shot or significantly injured from the whole of South East London, Kent and Medway would be brought to us for their treatment.

听Waite

Last year the London Ambulance Service responded to more than 900 calls where someone under 25 had been shot, stabbed or injured by some other weapon.听 But according to A&E consultant Emer Sutherland even those figures, compiled for this programme, don鈥檛 reveal the whole picture.

听Sutherland

We know that sometimes rather than call an ambulance their mates will put them in a car and bring them and all the time they鈥檙e continuing to bleed, then they鈥檒l sometimes just put them at the front door and drive away because they鈥檙e so frightened that if they bring an ambulance to their local area that there鈥檒l be recriminations because the police will come and an investigation might start.听 We know from the trauma meeting this morning we鈥檝e had three people who were stabbed last night.听 One particular is a young lad, he鈥檚 15, he鈥檚 medically stable now, he鈥檚 on the ward, he鈥檚 got a tube in to drain a lung, so I鈥檓 going to go and ask the youth workers to see him.

听Goins

This is a patient who came in about three o鈥檆lock this morning - stabbed seven times.听 My understanding is the police are looking at an attempted murder case.听 I want to find out how he鈥檚 feeling post trauma, how safe they feel at home, how safe they feel out and about, how safe they feel at school.

听Waite

Apart from the medics treating the young victims of violence youth worker, Marie Perryman Goins, from the charity Redthread, tries to ensure that they don鈥檛 return.

听Goins

Hiya it鈥檚 Marie again.听 Is there anything I can get you whilst you鈥檙e here 鈥� drink or anything to eat or do you want me to make any calls for you?

听Waite

We agreed not to record their conversation but Marie tries to establish what dangers the 15 year old may face when he leaves the hospital.听 He鈥檚 under no obligation to talk to her but patients usually do.听 The charity has helped gang members move house to avoid violence, to find work beyond the risky business of selling drugs and to get counselling for post-traumatic stress disorder.

听On another ward I meet other teenagers being helped by Redthread and although it must be stressed only a small minority of young people get caught up in gang culture the effects for those who do can be devastating.

听Gang Member

I just got shot in my leg, one side was shattered and the other side got snapped.听 The doctor didn鈥檛 really say anything about me getting back to walking properly.听 There鈥檚 a large possibility I will but nothing鈥檚 been said.

听Gang Member

Basically two months ago I was walking through an estate.听 I was approached by about 10 boys, like 16-18 years old, they approached me, they said where am I from?听 They just approached me, tried to circle me, we started fighting, I didn鈥檛 know they had a knife at first, see when I was trying to get away they stabbed me like three times in my leg.

听Waite

Did you think you might die?

听Gang Member

Yeah, a lot of stuff just runs through your head in the heat of the moment.听 Obviously I thought I could have died so I was thinking about my mum and that.听 Then when I did survive that made me think now I need to wake up and smell the coffee, like make something of my life now.听 The charity, they鈥檝e been helping me get a hostel and that, and work and stuff.听 If they weren鈥檛 there for me I could have been dead or in jail.

听Abdullah

When you speak to them and you understand some of the stories that have happened to them before they鈥檝e come to the hospital it is like living in a war zone.

听Waite

As the victims lie in their hospital beds they鈥檒l be visited by Redthread workers like Karim Abdullah, who tries to get them to re-evaluate their life.

听Abdullah

They鈥檙e not in their usual environment, they鈥檝e got chest drains coming out of them, catheters inside them, left with stoma bags - they鈥檙e literally taken out of their comfort zone, slammed into an environment they鈥檙e not used to and they鈥檙e looking for help.听 And what we do with every single young person that comes through the door that鈥檚 been a victim of an assault is that we alert to the fact that we could have read about you in the newspaper.听 Your mother could be mourning her son or her daughter.听 And we get them to think about that.听 And it does get through to them.

听Waite

Soon youth workers from Redthread will be based at every major trauma unit in London, thanks to money from the Mayor of London and from central government.听 As part of the 麻豆约拍 Office鈥檚 Ending Gang and Youth Violence programme, launched after the 2011 riots, money is available for projects like Redthread鈥檚 which encourage people to leave gangs, for others which try to stop people joining them in the first place and for enforcement action.听

听

All initiatives that came too late for Joe 鈥� we鈥檒l call him.听 He joined his first gang aged 11 and was selling drugs within a year, following in his elder brother鈥檚 footsteps.

听

Joe

He had a reputation in the borough for being one of the most notorious gang members but also for making a lot of money so he had quite a lot of respect from locals and I wanted to be like him.听 I started off by drug dealing.听 I was selling cannabis and then as I got older it progressed didn鈥檛 it, I started selling hard food and I was thinking right I鈥檓 a drug dealer now, you know what I鈥檓 saying, I thought wow you鈥檙e being young doing that.听 It adds to your ego innit.

听

Waite

Didn鈥檛 you worry that the police would perhaps stop you?

听

Joe

You see a 12 year old kid in his uniform and that you really think police are going to stop him?

听

I used to rob drug dealers, vulnerable drug dealers that I thought were vulnerable.听 How can I describe it?听 I鈥檝e got more of an edge to rob them, you know what I鈥檓 saying.

听

Waite

Did you hit them?

听Joe

Yeah of course I hit them, I used violence, I was a very violent person, I was a very violent person.听 I had respect because people viewed me as well 鈥� he鈥檚 so and so鈥檚 younger brother so we expect him to be like him as well.听 So I kind of walked in that type of footstep as well, you know what I鈥檓 saying.听 Most people were scared to retaliate against me because they knew that if they did worst case scenario they would end up getting shot or stabbed, do you know what I鈥檓 saying.听

听Waite

And did you carry a weapon?

听Joe

Of course I carried a weapon, I was mainly a gun person, I was a gun person 鈥� didn鈥檛 really business with knives, at the age of 13 I had two guns.

听Waite

We鈥檒l hear more from Joe later.听 He鈥檚 now quit what turned out to be a highly lucrative, if highly violent, life of crime and in that represents something of a trend, at least according to figures from the Metropolitan Police.听 The number of gang members in London they鈥檝e identified has fallen from around 4,800 three years ago to 3,600 today.听 But they still represent a significant number of gangs, according to the Met鈥檚 gangs unit Trident.

听Champion

I鈥檓 Tim Champion, Detective Superintendent on the Trident and Area Crime Command.听 We have identified 225 gangs in London, 58 that we regard as committing offences regularly.听 So some gangs are self-defined, they name themselves, other gangs or groups we鈥檝e identified.听 You鈥檝e got to deal with the violent offenders here and now but at the same time you鈥檙e looking at the next generation, so it might be younger brothers, it might be people who are currently in school and starting to get into helping out older people.听 And the message for those people is that we can help them and the gangs isn鈥檛 the way you should go.

听Waite

Tell me about some of the types of crime they perpetrate.

听Champion

Gun crime, knife crime, robbery and drug supply would be the main ones.听 A lot of it can be chaotic, a lot of it might be disputes between one gang and another and it鈥檚 not necessarily as organised as people think.

听Waite

While life on the street for a young gang member is chaotic - with fights and violence common - that chaos can be used deliberately to profit more senior gang members, who are always looking to stay one step ahead of the police.听 So says Simon Harding, a senior lecturer in criminology at Middlesex University, who鈥檚 spent almost a decade studying London鈥檚 gangs.

听Harding

They will very cynically use the young people to create a diversion.听 The police will come, they will chase the young people away on their BMX bikes whilst at the same time these olders, who are much more business involved, will be moving and shifting drugs.听 We also find what we call cuckooing, which is the drug dealers moving in to the flats of vulnerable people and taking them over.听 In my research a gang member was using his mother to take an elderly man, aged 82, from his house on a daily basis, acting as a care worker.听 She would make him travel around the Circle Line on the tube while her son was engaged in dealing drugs.听 They would return in the evening and he would be none the wiser.

听Waite

And neither would the police, that was why they chose the flat because in it lived a totally innocent elderly man.

听Harding

Absolutely, that鈥檚 exactly how it works.听

听Waite

Take me through the various stages in the gang, what鈥檚 the hierarchy?

听

Harding

You have youngers, who are probably aged around 14; you have olders who are aged perhaps 16-20 or 21 and then above that you have elders.听 We also find now that there are tinies, these are children that would be used to run errands for the gang.

听

Waite

And how do they build power in the gang?

听

Harding

Well what they have to do is they have to generate a reputation.听 Young people advance through the gang by generating what I call street capital.听 This could be how they handle a knife, how they sell weed, how they get rid of stolen goods.听 Street capital is also linked to respect, so if you were to disrespect me I then have to attack you or fight you or even stab you in order to regain my street capital.

听Waite

And that culture of violence has simply become a fact of life for people growing up in areas dominated by gangs.听 As I discovered when I met some young neighbours of minister Lorraine Jones.

听Jones

Good evening.听 Come in my love.

听Neighbour

Hello, how are you?

听Jones

Oh bless you honey.

听Waite

Aged 11-20 none of them has ever been a gang member.听

听

Tell me some of the things that you saw when you were growing up.

听Neighbour

Hundreds of fights, police, kicking open doors, robberies, lots of gangs coming in and out.

听Neighbour

Guys coming in the area that was from the opposite area.听 And then they would let off shots, regardless if you was a girl or boy but you were associated.听 Certain areas we couldn鈥檛 go to because we鈥檝e been parties where, because we was from a certain area, guns have been put to our face.

听Waite

How about you 鈥� how old are you?

听Neighbour

Sixteen.听

听Waite

Sixteen.

听Neighbour

If you see someone, a friend robbing another person, there will be excitement, you wouldn鈥檛 look at it in a bad way.听 But as you grow up you start to look back and you see that those things weren鈥檛 right.

听Waite

So you have seen friends of yours rob other friends of yours and you thought it was normal?

听Neighbour

Everyone thought it was normal because the olders you will see them do it and obviously you鈥檒l look up to them and you鈥檒l think that鈥檚 cool, if you know what I mean.

听Waite

And young people like you, not necessarily you but did some of them think that gangs were glamorous?

听Neighbour

Money, you know, smoking looks cool, it does look cool.听 You see girls, they鈥檙e in groups, they鈥檙e happy, partying and everything.

听Waite

How old are you?

听Craig

I鈥檓 11.

听Waite

Eleven!

听Craig

The things I see I don鈥檛 really like it.听 Like one time I was playing with my friends, yeah, on the football pitch, then a guy with a gun came and then he pointed it at my friend. Then he shot but it was in the other direction where all the gangs were, he just did that.听 I was shocked.

听Waite

Well 11 year old Craig there, as we鈥檙e calling him, may have been exposed to guns but even younger children are being used to carry them.听 That鈥檚 according to Sheldon Thomas who should know, he was a gang leader himself back in the 1970s and now runs the not-for-profit gang education company Gangsline.听 So he sees at first-hand how gangs are evolving.

听Thomas

What鈥檚 happened is that older gang members have realised they鈥檙e getting stopped and searched a lot, they鈥檝e kind of said well we鈥檙e not going to carry the drugs no more, we鈥檙e not going to carry the guns, we鈥檙e going to get these younger guys to do it, going to get these girls to do it because no one really stops and searches girls or young kids.听 Another way that the gangs are adapting is they鈥檙e moving into country, so when I say country I鈥檓 talking about areas outside of London 鈥� places like Portsmouth, Ipswich, Southampton, Brighton 鈥� they鈥檙e go into these areas to sell drugs.听 Why?听 Because the police down there don鈥檛 really understand gangs.听 So the fact is gang members are not stupid, people tend to believe they are, but these guys are smart.

听Waite

As well as 鈥榞oing country鈥� we鈥檝e also learnt of other ways gangs are trying to evade the police.听 Gang colours, once proudly displayed on bandanas, have largely disappeared.听 And now on some estates weapons are stashed around the place, rather than carried around.听 The role of women is also changing or at least it鈥檚 now better understood.听 Girls 鈥� and they often are girls 鈥� are used to carry drugs and weapons, we鈥檝e been told they鈥檙e also used to gather information on rivals and that they鈥檙e there for gang members to exploit sexually.听 In Joe鈥檚 case, he鈥檚 the gang member we heard from earlier, he turned sexual into financial exploitation by grooming his girlfriends to sell sex for cash.

听Joe

So certain girls in the area what I鈥檒l do is I鈥檒l show them affection, show them love, say something 鈥� yeah listen babe, I鈥檝e got you, you鈥檙e with me now, I鈥檓 the big man 鈥� you know what I鈥檓 saying.听 And then when they trust me what I do is I start sleeping with them but then you exploit their sexual nature, meaning I鈥檒l say to them let鈥檚 have a threesome, you know what I鈥檓 trying to say, and I鈥檒l get my friend in and then I鈥檒l get her used to sleeping with more than one person.听 I then refer her to the lady that runs a brothel 鈥� the mother of the brothel - you know what I鈥檓 saying. Then I鈥檇 refer her to her and what they do is that they share, they talk about their sexual experiences with more than one person so it becomes casual.听 She then drums into their head but she manipulates them saying that it don鈥檛 make you a prostitute. What it is you鈥檙e basically hustling because you鈥檙e only sleeping with them for an hour and they鈥檙e paying you silly money.听 She manipulates them to believe that they鈥檙e exploiting men when really, truly they鈥檙e being exploited, do you know what I鈥檓 saying.

听Waite

In another disturbing development sex itself, in the form of rape and sexual assault, is now being used as a weapon by male gang members.听 Claire Hubberstey is the Chief Executive of the charity Safer London.

听Hubberstey

Young people who are involved in gangs will always want to be one step ahead of the law.听 So they know that if they are carrying guns they would get a hefty prison sentence, it was very traceable. And actually thankfully in this country, its not that straightforward to get hold of.听 Knives, easier to get hold of, but still heavy sentences.听 So rape and sexual violence is a fantastic tool for them, it鈥檚 a way of instilling fear and control, it鈥檚 a way of getting people to do what you want them to do and that鈥檚 why it鈥檚 used in war as well.听 So what we鈥檝e seen is an increase in rape and sexual offences being used as an alternative to weapons.听 If you have been stabbed or shot that escalates your status within the gang and that gives you cache.听 If your sister or girlfriend is raped by somebody or your mum, actually that鈥檚 something to be ashamed of, to keep quiet.

听Waite

So as knives replace guns, as sexual violence becomes a new weapon of choice and as gangs spread out beyond London and go up country, has it left the police playing catch up?听 Detective Superintendent Champion from the Met鈥檚 gang unit Trident.

听Champion

I would suggest that we look forward as well.听 So we鈥檙e trying to identify what the next thing is and move from certain gangs in London into county forces.听 We were aware of it and dealing with it as it came in.听 Gang crime hasn鈥檛 gone away, we鈥檝e still got challenges around it, there are successes around gun crime and the work we鈥檙e doing now around knife crime will drive that down.

听Waite

But you crack down on carrying drugs or carrying weapons, the gangs know that you鈥檙e doing that so younger children are employed by them, that they expect the police won鈥檛 stop and search quite so much.

听Champion

I see what you mean, they evolve, but then we evolve with them and that is our role.

听Waite

And do you get better at encouraging victims to speak out and so they turn to sexual violence because people then are less likely to report it.

听Champion

Well the reporting on sexual crimes is on the increase, which is a good sign for us.听 We鈥檙e far more aware of that and doing work in that area as well.

听Waite

You鈥檙e listening to Face the Facts, this week investigating London鈥檚 street gangs.听 As we鈥檝e heard and will hear it鈥檚 a very disturbing world and though recorded gang crime in the capital is falling, and since 2011 overall gang violence has reduced significantly, last year saw an increase in both total gang violence and knife crime resulting in injury.

听Joe

Let鈥檚 put it this way I鈥檝e left a lot of people scarred, I鈥檝e left a lot of people scarred, a lot of people scarred.

听Waite

The long-time gang member, we鈥檙e calling Joe, knows all about knife crime and gun crime and violent crime, resulting in injury, sometimes very serious injury.

听Joe

There鈥檚 one person I see, he鈥檚 in a wheelchair now, I see him on a daily basis, when he sees me I don鈥檛 know what to say to him.

听Waite

You put him in that鈥�

听Joe

Yeah I put him in the wheelchair.听 I don鈥檛 know the outcome to most people because after I鈥檝e done what I do to them I don鈥檛 stand there and watch what鈥檚 happening to them.

听Waite

How did you feel yourself when this was going on?

听Joe

I didn鈥檛 feel anything, it just adds to my ego, it just made me feel like well I鈥檝e clearly got bollocks to do what I鈥檝e done, you know what I鈥檓 saying.听 I can鈥檛 describe it, I was just very aggressive, all the aggression that was inside me I鈥檇 take out on a certain person, you know what I鈥檓 saying.听 And having balls means you can鈥檛 be thinking about the consequences, you鈥檝e got to do things.听 So when one boy said to me this man caught me slipping 鈥� being caught slipping means that they caught him when he was vulnerable 鈥� you know what I鈥檓 saying 鈥� and they stabbed him, the first thing we鈥檒l do - I鈥檒l round up all my boys. We鈥檒l go in different cars, we call them dingers because they鈥檙e stolen vehicles, you know what I鈥檓 saying, if the police track the vehicles they鈥檙e not going to come back to us 鈥� you know what I鈥檓 saying. So we go in stolen vehicles, drive round the area, anybody from the area that we see that we think is involved we hop out. . . .

听Waite

And did innocent people get caught up in this sometimes?

听Joe

Yeah definitely.听 One of my boys he was a nutcase, he was the type of person that if he didn鈥檛 find the actual perpetrator anybody that鈥檚 in the area that鈥檚 young was getting attacked, innit.

听Waite

So what have we got here Lorraine?

听Jones

It鈥檚 just a few photos.

听Waite

At Dwayne Simpson鈥檚 house, he鈥檚 the 20 year old who was stabbed to death a year ago this week, his mother, minister Lorraine, produces photographs to show me how Dwayne had tried to begin a new life, having finally decided to escape his gang life.

听Jones

This is the homeless project where we would feed the homeless and those that are vulnerable and Dwayne would help me on a weekly basis.听 This one here, this was taken two weeks before he was killed.

听Waite

He鈥檚 a very good looking young man.

听Jones

Yes, he looks like a professor there.听 He was very charming, very caring.

听Waite

But Dwayne, fine looking man that he is, he was no saint, was he? He鈥檇 had quite a chequered youth?

听Jones

It was a period when I went through my divorce, it did affect him.听 And there was a period where it鈥檚 like I didn鈥檛 recognise my son, he was smoking weed, he wouldn鈥檛 come home, he went to prison when he was 15. It was a robbery that was done in Regent Street and he was the lookout boy.听 He was supposed to be in school.听 And I got a call that he was in the police station.

听Waite

And was he involved with gangs at this point?

听Jones

Well I presume that he was, I mean a gang is a group of people, they can either portray a positive or negative and he was with a negative group of older people that influenced him and he paid a heavy price for it.听 I don鈥檛 know the depth of what Dwayne went through when he was going through that dark patch in his life.

听Waite

That dark patch was over though, his mother says, Dwayne had set up a boxing club to keep youngsters in the area off the street and secured support from Lambeth Council.听 It鈥檚 projects like this that have helped reduce the problem of gangs in the area, Lambeth is no longer among the five boroughs in London with the highest rate of gang crimes.

听

Music Whippin鈥� Up

听For most of us gang crime exists only in newspaper headlines.听 Its victims tend to be of a similar age and similar background to the gang members themselves.听 But if you know where to look their exploits are often documented in gang manufactured music videos, like this one, which shows an East London gang member posing with expensive cars and models dressed in revealing clothes drapped on his arms.听 鈥榃hipping up鈥� refers to the process of making crack from cocaine and the video was played in court during its star鈥檚 trial on drugs offences last December.听 According to one producer we spoke to videos like these often advertise the money that can be made by working for specific gangs - in effect recruitment videos.

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Music Whippin鈥� Up

听But there is an even more sinister side to some of these videos, which means that one of Britain鈥檚 most famous children鈥檚 charities must constantly monitor them.

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Akkad

So this is the welcome area.听 This is the duty room.听 And our safeguarding office.

听Waite

At Kids Company, in South East London, I鈥檓 meeting youth worker Natalie Akkad The charity provides a safe haven for local children who want to stay off the streets and away from gangs.听 But if the camera has caught them and they simply appear in one of these videos, alongside gang members, then they鈥檙e safety is at stake.

听Akkad

Rival groups can identify other young people in the videos and then make it their aim that week to go for one of the young men or women in the videos and that鈥檚 an achievement for them.

听Waite

And do you know youngsters who come here who have been attacked because their appearance in the video was seen as provocative?

听Akkad

Yes.

听Waite

The most recent attack was less than six weeks ago.听 For safety reasons we agreed not to play any of the videos Natalie has concerns about, it鈥檚 now a major part of her job to monitor those videos which are less about making music than they are about making threats to children who attend the youth club.听 Threats the club takes extremely seriously.

听Akkad

We will close early. We will 听inform our local safer neighbourhood team that we鈥檝e seen something which might escalate violence within the area.听 We usually provide cabs or some sort of safe transport for young people to get home.

听Thomas

Most of the violence is committed because of social media.

听Waite

Sheldon Thomas, founder of Gangsline.

听Thomas

Guys will cuss each other on Facebook, on Twitter using the YouTube.听 A lot of gang members tend to make music videos cussing a particular gang who then will respond in another music video and then before you know it we鈥檝e got a street battle on our hands.听 The media then gets confused, they think that they鈥檙e fighting over drugs.听 Most street gangs don鈥檛 fight over drugs, most street gangs fight over nonsense.

听Waite

But look at social media as we have for the past few weeks and what you see there most people wouldn鈥檛 describe as nonsense 鈥� guns, drugs, thousands and thousands of pounds in cash being flaunted.听 Here鈥檚 a picture of jewellery and another trophy that have been stolen from an enemy gang.听 I鈥檓 looking now at a picture of a rival gang member who鈥檚 been beaten up, half his face is covered in blood.听 There are clearly identifiable witness statements showing gangs know who鈥檚 been snitching to the police and what they鈥檝e said.听 And then there鈥檚 this:

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That鈥檚 SQ, as he鈥檚 called on the video, but his real name is Dwayne Simpson, remember the 20 year old who was stabbed to death exactly a year ago.听 The video he made is not linked to his death but it, and others like it, worry his mother Minister Lorraine Jones.

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Jones

Since Dwayne died I actually saw some of the videos before he gave his life to the Lord and there was one where he was swearing away, I was like it鈥檚 not a language which we use which he鈥檚 ever used in my presence.听 But they give these young people alcohol, smoke 鈥� if they鈥檙e smoking 鈥� money to participate and for the young people they feel that they鈥檙e having a good time and a moment of fame, when really they don鈥檛 know that this could cost them their life.

听Waite

In 2013, officers at Newham Council in North East London identified almost 500 gang videos which referred to their borough, some were removed from YouTube.听 But they can no longer afford to fund the work they told us.听 Councils can also seek civil orders, including gang injunctions, or ASBOs to ban individuals from releasing music videos. But this is rare.听 As far as we鈥檝e been able to establish only a handful of people are currently prevented from making music videos.听 I鈥檝e been speaking to one of them and what you鈥檙e about to hear is the reason he was given an ASBO, it is violent, full of offensive language and was made to be provocative to rival gangs.

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That鈥檚 Scirbz, a rapper with 67 as they call themselves, in Brixton South London.听 When he said shanks he means knives, straps are guns.听 But he resents the ban, he told me, because he portrays, he doesn鈥檛 promote what happens on the streets.

听Scribz

They feel that my music influences people, the younger generation mainly, obviously they鈥檝e got a big problem with it, whereas the way I see it is it鈥檚 entertainment, I鈥檓 just rapping what鈥檚 actually happening, It鈥檚 like, come on like, you watch the news, you see people dying, people getting arrested.

听Waite

And drugs 鈥� did you rap about that?

听Scribz

Yeah, I don鈥檛 rap about me selling drugs directly, come on that鈥檚 what鈥檚 out here, that鈥檚 what people are doing, that鈥檚 how we鈥檙e living like.

听Waite

And when you talked about these things 鈥� drugs, guns, violence 鈥� did you have personal experience of these things?

听Scribz

Not at all.听 The police know that.听 They don鈥檛 have a strong enough case to say that I鈥檓 actually doing this, so they use young people as a reason to give me a ban.听 I haven鈥檛 been in prison for no drugs, I haven鈥檛 been in prison for no guns, like I鈥檓 not going to say I haven鈥檛 been around people that鈥檚 been in prison for that stuff.

听Waite

But I mean you have been to prison?

Scribz

One time, yeah I was armed with a knife, I went and I done my time for that, that was when I was young, silly mistake, cool.听 I鈥檝e come out, I鈥檝e had a little fight with someone in probation, they happened to be a gang member and told the police a whole new thing. I don鈥檛 know why and I鈥檝e ended up in prison for that, remand, the whole time, I weren鈥檛 guilty, I came out.

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Music

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No one can tell me the music I made was gang music. Gang music is the people that鈥檚 out there telling people they鈥檙e going to go and do this and they鈥檙e going to do that.

Waite

Can I just quote a couple of your lyrics to you?听 Live rounds in that mac, act up get splashed.听 We sell drugs to get cash.听 What are macs?

Scribz

They鈥檙e a form of gun and that鈥檚 what鈥檚 out there in the whole of London, the whole of England.

Waite

Can we look at a couple more?听 My young uns shoot when I say click, clack, that mac, watch 25 spray 鈥� I guess that鈥檚 bullets is it?

听Scribz

Think that鈥檚 a typo error but yeah.

听Waite

Well that sounds pretty provocative, if you cross me I鈥檒l come round with my gun.

听Scribz

I could tell you how it goes, live rounds in that mac, they act up and they get splashed.听 We don鈥檛 f*** with no bocats, licking stains, I'm on that.听 ASAP in tha trap, 听he sells shit to get cash.听 Get the drop where they at, then the post up in them flats.听 If you listen to it carefully that is a story of your typical London behaviour of the young people.

听Waite

The police clearly see a connection between what you write about - violence and gangs - and encouraging violence and gangs.

Scribz

No connection.

听Waite

But despite the proliferation of music videos and social media posts, which are at least in part meant to entice new recruits, the real recruiting takes place on the streets and one to one.听 Sheldon Thomas, Chief Executive of Gangsline.

听Thomas

When you look out your window you would never know that your son or daughter is talking to a gang member, and all the while they鈥檙e just kind of talking to you, saying to you 鈥榦h you know what we鈥檒l buy you some sweets, don鈥檛 worry we鈥檒l buy you a drink.鈥櫶� We鈥檝e got a gang member right now in Harlesden somewhere, he buys a whole community trainers, the whole community chicken.听 So any time the police come round there you can just say ah we鈥檙e not turning him in or whatever and before you know it that guy says 鈥榶eah, why don鈥檛 you carry that over there, yeah why don鈥檛 you hold on to this.鈥櫶� What鈥檚 happened is it鈥檚 got worse because there鈥檚 now drug dealers as young as nine years old in some areas.

听Waite

And having reached a situation like that, says Mr Thomas, drastic action is needed to warn every child of the dangers.

听Thomas

I think every school in the UK, primary schools and secondary school, should have a gangs prevention workshop.听 You have to go to the root which is a seven year old child, it stops them getting involved in selling drugs and making money because it鈥檚 the money that entraps people who鈥檚 coming from a vulnerable background.听 Now not only just vulnerable background we need to go to Southampton where those white schools are who will come into contact with a gang member from London, or from Birmingham, selling drugs in their area, so that those schools can begin to understand what gangs is about.听 So it鈥檚 about educating every single school and I just don鈥檛 understand why no one gets it.

听Waite

The Department for Education told us, and I quote:听 鈥淚t is teachers who know best what is right for individual children. Many good schools already work with the police and other organisations to protect them from harm.听 We updated guidance earlier this year setting out what schools should be doing to keep children safe and providing information on issues such as gang and youth violence.鈥�

听Meanwhile, as we鈥檝e heard, the 麻豆约拍 Office continues to fund local projects to tackle gangs, including some which aim to dissuade youngsters from joining them in the first place.听 But former 麻豆约拍 Office minister, Liberal Democrat MP Norman Baker, would also go further.听 Mr Baker had ministerial responsibility for gang crime until he resigned in November.

听Baker

I wouldn鈥檛 want to be too prescriptive but I certainly think that in areas where gangs exist, which is certainly in our larger cities, there鈥檚 got to be a very good reason why there isn鈥檛 an engagement about gang culture.听 This is part and parcel of being in an inner city environment these days and schools I鈥檓 afraid, in the absence sometimes of any sensible parental lead, have to pick up the pieces.听 So I think if any school wants to opt out of that there has to be a very good reason for doing so.听 And I think they should actually start in the primary schools.

听Waite

Joe, who we鈥檝e heard from throughout this programme, was 11 when he joined a gang.听 He went on to lead his own gang but now in his early 20s he鈥檚 left that life behind.听 Indeed he works part time for a gang awareness charity.听 And though most of us might be shocked at what we鈥檝e heard today, the cynical tactics used by gangs to lure young recruits to their ranks, the casual violence they meet out, even to innocent bystanders, the profits made from selling drugs, the girls deliberately exploited.听 For Joe, for almost half his life, that was everyday life.听 As we鈥檝e heard he injured one rival so badly they now need a wheelchair. But Joe too, he reckons, has paid a heavy price.

听Joe

I鈥檝e been stabbed three times, I鈥檝e been stabbed in my neck with a screwdriver, got stabbed in my leg and I got stabbed in my back, you know what I鈥檓 saying.听 I鈥檝e been shot at, I鈥檝e had a gun put to my head, I鈥檝e had a gun put in my mouth, you know what I鈥檓 saying.听 I鈥檝e shot people, I鈥檝e stabbed people 鈥� that鈥檚 part of the lifestyle innit.

听Waite

And were you scared?

听Joe

Young 鈥� I wasn鈥檛 scared because I鈥檝e always had that, I鈥檝e always been a brave person, not even just being brave like, I felt secure by the older people in the community, you know what I鈥檓 saying. Because they鈥檝e always reassured me that they鈥檝e got my back and it鈥檚 about how you do that.听 I have to wake up every day thinking, boy I could die today, you know what I鈥檓 trying to say.听 And for that reason I never really 鈥� I never took public transport, I never took train, I never took buses, I was always a cab man, I was always in a cab, always in a car, you know what I鈥檓 saying.

听Waite

And did this start to worry you Joe, that this was where things were heading 鈥� either you were going to get killed or you were going to kill someone?

听Joe

That wasn鈥檛 even on my mind, the thing that was on my mind was when situations got worse, got out of hand and then they weren鈥檛 even just coming for me because they knew they couldn鈥檛 come for me like that, you know what I鈥檓 trying to say. They were trying to target people around me, meaning my family, you know what I鈥檓 saying.听 I remember I got a little phone call off of one of my boys saying that there鈥檚 a few cars that are circling round your house innit and my mum was ringing me saying to me like what do I do, I鈥檓 scared etc. etc. And you鈥檙e thinking through your head like what if someone does something to your family, you know what I鈥檓 trying to say.听 And there are things you鈥檝e got to do, obviously the situation got dealt with the wrong way but nowadays I don鈥檛 retaliate like that, I don鈥檛 walk round with a gun no more, I don鈥檛 have a gun no more.听 I feel at peace, you know what I鈥檓 saying, no more waking up thinking oh there鈥檚 the police at my house again or none of this stress.

听Waite

And now all these people that you hurt, the girls you put on the game, the man you tell me that you paralysed, what do you say to them now Joe?

听Joe

Now if I could go back in time I would not have done a lot of things that I鈥檝e done, you know what I鈥檓 saying, I鈥檝e done all of that just for money.

听Waite

And do you feel genuinely bad about what you did?

听Joe

Certainly, definitely.听 Certain things that I鈥檝e done that I feel was a life or death situation. Certain situation where I felt the person deserved it, innit, do you know what I鈥檓 saying. And there鈥檚 a certain situation where I鈥檓 so remorseful.听 It鈥檚 the not the thing you want to get involved in trust me, I won鈥檛 lie you can make a lot of money from it so you鈥檒l think everything鈥檚 all bliss but then when you come to reality you realise what you鈥檝e actually got yourself into - it鈥檚 a whole big plate and it鈥檚 a plate that you won鈥檛 be able to finish.

听Jones

My sons have to pass the spot where their brother was stabbed to death, every single day when they鈥檙e going to school.听 My daughters, when they鈥檙e going to work.听 This needs to stop.听 The community are scared, we are scared and our fear is that it鈥檚 going to erupt again and whose child is going to be killed?

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