Â鶹ԼÅÄ

‘This isn’t about blaming my mum’

“I recently found out that my mother was a covert or vulnerable narcissist,” says Charlotte. “That was during therapy, and it has completely changed my outlook on life for the better.

“Although my mother died in 2009, aged 68, she has continued to be in my head, as she has throughout the whole of my adult life. I never went into therapy thinking I want to gripe about my mother for hours and hours. That wasn't the point at all, I wanted to talk about me.”

‘It’s a beautiful picture, but that’s not the person she was’

“It’s very difficult to describe her really because my main memories of her are of her behaviour, attitudes, judgements, and snide comments,” says Charlotte. “I've got a framed photograph that my dad took when they were first dating, and she looks absolutely amazing in it. But I don't like it because it's a beautiful picture, but that's not the person that she was.

“She would say things like, ‘Your friend’s mother agrees with me that you are...’, whatever it might be, ‘selfish, lazy, vain’. She made me feel that I was selfish if I had fun. And one of the most significant things was that I was the only one of the three daughters to keep in touch with my father after my parents separated, and she made me feel really bad about that”.

‘For 40 years, I thought that was my fault’

Charlotte recalls what she describes as the “biggest single incident” to have affected her childhood.

“I must have been eight or nine, and we were sat around the table on a Saturday, early evening, in the summer. She had said something and just one or two words came out in a really Merseyside accent. And I said to her, ‘You sounded really Liverpudlian then’, and she completely flipped, instantly flipped. She got up, her chair fell backwards, ‘I'm not from Liverpool, I'm from Birkenhead!’, and went stamping and screaming upstairs. I looked at my dad and said, ‘What have I said?’

“My dad and I went to the foot of the stairs and mum was on the half landing. By this time, she was just in her underwear, her bra and pants, screaming and ranting. She pointed her finger down the stairs and said, ‘Look what you've done to me’. I thought she was pointing at me.

“The next time I saw her, she'd had electric shock therapy and she was slumped on her bed, almost dribbling out of one side of her mouth. And for 40 years, I thought that was my fault, and that's what I had done to her.”

‘She didn’t have the mental capacity to reflect and realise’

Louise, Charlotte’s younger sister, remembers their mother in a more positive way. She says she recognised her mother’s narcissistic traits but didn’t have a label for them at the time. “I feel a little bit more sympathetic to my mum because she had these traits, and she didn’t have the mental capacity to reflect and realise. That’s not necessarily her conscious fault.”

Louise describes her mother as “proud, slightly domineering on occasion, vulnerable at times, volatile, yes. Wanting to make sure that situation centred around her when it needn’t necessarily have done so."

“I saw a mum who felt that life had not delivered in her childhood, in her marriage, and in later years", says Louise. "And so, there was a, sort of, frustration there. I sensed that.”

Louise thinks she feels more compassion for her mother than Charlotte because of their father.

“I never had that viciousness, the vitriol for being in touch with dad. Now that's because I wasn't, because I took the easy path, I suppose looking back on it, being honest. And good for her, that was the right thing, that was the adult decision to make.”

‘For the first time I saw her through somebody else's eyes’

“There was a horrific, horrific phone call,” says Louise. “My husband could tell that I was getting agitated so he put it on loudspeaker so he could listen in. She just started questioning why I was with him, saying I'd rushed into having a family, I wasn't doing the right thing. My husband could hear all of this. He just ended up picking up the handset and giving a ‘What for?’ down the phone, then slamming the phone down.

“He just said, ‘That’s not what a mother does. That’s not what a caring mother, new grandmother does.’ He called her out on it, and they did have a difficult relationship as a result because every time she's called out or was called out, it never went well. She couldn’t take it on board, she couldn’t reflect. It was us being vicious and nasty and manipulative.

“I do recognise traits. Again, I didn’t know the label to put on it at the time”.

‘When my mum did die, I did have a huge wave of grief and loss, but there was a sense of relief as well’

Louise describes how she believes Charlotte “needed that process” of therapy about her mother much more than she did. “It’s obviously had a bigger impact on her than on me. My husband had already recognised these traits in her, so I felt I could at least talk about that with him. I've got that sounding board, whereas Charlotte hasn't.

“It's good to revisit it, but I don't want to dwell on it either. Our mother died a few years ago, which in one way is bad, she has no right of reply. But at the same time, it allows us the freedom to talk things through,” Louise says. “I'm influenced by her, but I've also had a number of years without her, a number of years in a marriage, and a number of years with four children, which keeps you busy. So, there are other things to think about and look forward.”

‘I understand the part we each played. I’m at peace with that’

Having spoken to both Louise and Charlotte separately about their mother, reporter Ena Miller then sat the two of them down together. Louise was asked if she thought their mother’s behaviour had had an impact on Charlotte. “Huge and not for the good,” says Louise. “Building up and batting her down, building up and batting her down.”

“Thank you,” said Charlotte through tears. “I didn’t know you knew, and I didn’t know it was obvious to anybody apart from me. My feeling was that I was the outsider and there was no empathy for me. So, to learn that you understood, is a big thing for me.”

Louise was also asked what she hopes for her sister’s future. “Equilibrium,” she says. “You’ve done a lot of yo-yoing emotionally; other sides of your life have been a rollercoaster. I hope all of this helps you put things in a box with a label so you can move forward happier.”

When asked what’s next for the sisters, Charlotte says, “Probably to have a session where we go out shopping, do a bit of crying, do a bit of drinking and laughing and rebuild that sister relationship that's always been there.”

You can listen to the whole Woman’s Hour’s Narcissistic Mothers series by searching for Narcissistic Mothers on Â鶹ԼÅÄ Sounds. Join the conversation on Instagram and Twitter @bbcwomanshour.