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boudica
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by helliarty (U1943916) on Monday, 29th August 2005
Does anyone know why we now use the name Boudica instead of Boadicea for the Iceni warrior queen? When and why did the change occur? I am baffled?
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Message 2
Posted by henvell (U1781664) on Monday, 29th August 2005
The English language is always changing and these days there is a tendancy [sp?] to shorten longer words.This one prefers the old spelling,but then it is also old.
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Message 3
Posted by Ninja-Badger (U1689794) on Tuesday, 30th August 2005
I was under the impression that Boudica was the correct name but somewhere along the line someone copied it down incorrectly and it passed into common usage as Boadicea.
Its recently started to be correctly spelt as Boudica, though I'm not sure why. -
Message 4
Posted by Gilgamesh of Uruk (U211168) on Tuesday, 30th August 2005
AIUI, "Boadicea" is the Romanised spelling, and she would have called herself "Boudicca". Of course, the common pronunciation of "Boadicea" with a soft "c" is pretty certainly wrong which ever way you spell it.
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Message 5
Posted by Pugwash Trouserpress (U1865008) on Thursday, 1st September 2005
I always understood that latin never used a soft 'C'. Therefore Boudicca would be the correct pronunciation. Iceni wound therefore be pronounced 'Ikeni'. Am I misinformed?
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Message 6
Posted by Gilgamesh of Uruk (U211168) on Thursday, 1st September 2005
Not on this point you aren't. Latin "g" and "c" were always hard (in classical times) although, oddly, modern Italian uses an "h" as in "funghi" to harden the "g" - sort of opposite to English practice.
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Message 7
Posted by Saraoc (U1754429) on Thursday, 1st September 2005
I was wondering about that as well. The Latin C always being hard etc. However, did the Iceni call themselves the Iceni with a hard C or soft C...Or did they in fact call themselves something completely different?
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Message 8
Posted by Gilgamesh of Uruk (U211168) on Thursday, 1st September 2005
Since it's usually assumed that "Arminius" is the Latinised form of "Hermann" (and "Flavius" was originally something like "Goldkopf") it's probably risky to assume that the correspondence is too good. Look at Russian. My friend Harriet becomes "Garriet" or something remarkable like that.
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Message 9
Posted by fascinating (U1944795) on Friday, 2nd September 2005
Gilgamesh, I do not understand this, you seem to be suggesting that these German names came BEFORE the Latin ones!
The only reason we know Boadicea's name is because a Roman wrote it down. Thus Boadicea is the only name that has come down to us. Claiming that it would have been Boudicca is just guessing. It could well have been that she was given a latinised name.
The only evidence we have is that she was called Boadicea (pronounced with a hard C). -
Message 10
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Friday, 2nd September 2005
Correct,
Usually when a writer from one nation mentions a name from another nation then there is always an instant change in pronounciation at least. That change is aggrevated from following changes in pronounciation of the language of the initial text etc. For example Boadicea in Latin would be pronounced briefly as Bodika or fully as Boadikea or some villagers could say Boudike - if we used later Latin pronounciation, i.e. early Italian that could be pronounced Boaditsea, if we would translate it to Byzantine Greek that would become Vouthikea!!!
Thus, it is quite difficult to spot the original pronounciation or the proper name etc.
The most famous example is of course Alexander the Great. In the west his original name Ale'ksantros changed to Alexa'nder (in most european languages) and 'Aleha'ndro' (in Spanish), in Asian though they initially heard Aleskante'r that later became Iskante'r or even Skente'r. The sign ' shows were the pronounciation is emphasised. -
Message 11
Posted by ap Tom (U1380901) on Sunday, 4th September 2005
According to Graham Webster's book 'Boudica', the first mistake was with Tacitus in his account of the rebellion who added an extra 'c' making it Boudicca, This was mangled bt medieval copyists who managed to put it down as Boadicea. The mistake was repeated by the Victorian Romantic Poets and became entrenched in popular publications. Reverting to Boudica is an attempt to correct the mistakes of the past.
Quite simply, Boudica is correct; Boadicea is not. -
Message 12
Posted by Gilgamesh of Uruk (U211168) on Wednesday, 7th September 2005
Gilgamesh, I do not understand this, you seem to be suggesting that these German names came BEFORE the Latin ones!
Μύ
Since they were adults before coming into contact with the Romans, I think it may be reasonable to assume they had Germanic (OK, Cheruscian if you wish) names before they had Latinised ones, don't you? -
Message 13
Posted by ap Tom (U1380901) on Friday, 9th September 2005
......
The only reason we know Boadicea's name is because a Roman wrote it down. Thus Boadicea is the only name that has come down to us. Claiming that it would have been Boudicca is just guessing. It could well have been that she was given a latinised name.
The only evidence we have is that she was called Boadicea (pronounced with a hard C).
Μύ
The name the Romans wrote down was not Boadicea, though - that was a Medieval typo. Also, although it wasn't a common name there are other examples of it on the continent and in Ireland. The name also continued in use down the ages and developed with remaining 'Celtic' languages. In Modern Welsh, for example, the name is now Buddug and any philologist worth their salt should be able to demonstrate how that would have transformed from the Brittonic Boudica - not Boadicea. The meaning is Victory, and Buddug is also a Welsh form of Victoria (a similar name was used in Irish).
As for the 'C' - it is hard in Classical Latin, but soft in Medieval / Ecclesiastical Latin. -
Message 14
Posted by Gilgamesh of Uruk (U211168) on Friday, 9th September 2005
Have you ever heard that speech that Supermac gave in "old" (i.e. new) prounciation Latin? Takes some following if you are used to hard C / soft V, but perfectly comprehensible with effort.
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