Ancient and ArchaeologyΒ permalink
The Icknield Way
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Message 1.Β
Posted by stanilic (U2347429) on Saturday, 26th November 2011
One of the discussion points in this area is whether or not the Icknield Way existed.
Of course it exists today, running along the foot of the Chiltern escarpment, but the earliest written reference to it as a through route is in the twelfth century.
It has been argued by some that as the Anglo-Saxon invasion route theories have progressively collapsed so has the relevance for this route.
A view is that this was just a local road used by the locals joining up their settlements or for taking their sheep to market as my great-great uncle used to over a hundred years ago.
The jury is out but does anyone else have views about this or other supposedly ancient tracks which may no longer measure up to rigorous scrutiny? -
Message 2
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Sunday, 27th November 2011
Hi stanilic
The obvious example in the North of England is the 'Roman' road over Blackstone Edge. It is now generally thought to be an abandoned turnpike.
TP -
Message 3
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Sunday, 27th November 2011
stanilic
Having frequently had sunday walks in my childhood along what we believed to be the Icknield Way below Christmas Common-- the valley that the motorway now climbs- I can offer you no evidence or facts.
But the Turnpike Era of roadbuilding countered the local DIY tendency which was to focus on building roads that only served the local region and neglected the need for through roads, which was very real.
Evidence from Africa during the periods of European exploration suggest that through-road trackways are integral to the way that such locally preoccupied societies operate.. And in much of Africa there were traditional rights of way which "innocent" travellers could use, while often paying some kind of tribute to show respect to the local tribe. An "honest" man or group of men travelled along the track, and the "locals" had good reason to keep an eye on it for various reasons- including neighbourhood watch policing. Even in the world of Thomas Hardy people seem to have been spotted quite far off when plodding along such places. The Tuareg control of the trans-Saharan route was perhaps an extreme example, for the profit from the trackway was a major source of livelihood.
In this way a trackway would permit the distribution of useful material (and messages) and no doubt salt and stone muct have moved around Pre-Historic Britain.. Stonehenge incorporates stones from many places.
The location of the Icknield Way would offer several advantages- not least the fact that it is follows a spring line- always a useful thing for travellers, and small towns along it- and the "way" itself gain from the slight elevation above the plains with their wetlands, as well as the porous chalk which made the "way" a "safe" place to walk with "sunday best" shoes.
Moreover- in time of war or conflict- the escarpment above offers a ready-made defence resource should any enemy seek to use it as an invasion route.
Cass -
Message 4
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Sunday, 27th November 2011
Further to my last- I understood that generally the trend in archaeology over almost two hundred years has been to suggest that goods were traded or exchanged over long distances much more than people had assumed would be the case..
Burial goods etc often reveal this to be the case, and goods can not move without people.
Furthermore it is a long time since I really read any works on Ancient Britain- but the very fact that there were regional divisions with "Kings" and "Queens" suggests that it was already necessary to be able to meet the demand "take me to your leader"- for when "Nation speaks to nation" it is usually Head to Head, which also meant the movement of both people and goods, prior if friendly relations were established to more regular commerce.
And Twin Probe's point about the "Roman Road" being a Turnpike really just reflects that the road builders of the Turnpike Age of wheeled traffic copied the Roman road-building techniques. When not all roads led to Rome metalled surfaces were not necessary.
Some time ago we had a thread about the local boundaries- and round here the modern borough boundaries in Victorian times were still connected to various oak trees, with an annual procession along those boundaries, with people from both sides of the boundary walking in a "measured" way to re-assert and re-establish the correct line. Children were often beaten at particual points in order to "impress" the locations on their minds as well as their bodies- and also impress their peers "on the other side" by demonstrating the mettle of the next generation- just in case they could start getting ideas about being able to "push the boundaries".
These boundaries naturally, with this annual treading down, naturally emerged as walkways- and by the Nineteenth Century metalled roads. And- as I suggested before- the Icknield Way really runs along a kind of "shoreline" [In Burgundy the long escarpment above the Rhone-Saone Valley is called the "Cote d'Or"- as opposed to the Cote d'Azure on the Mediterranean. And mention of sheep brings up my own family background in the Cotswolds, where some family names reflect that these people are people of the stone hills. But my brother married someone of the "marsh".
Cass -
Message 5
Posted by TheodericAur (U14260004) on Sunday, 27th November 2011
Hi Stanilac
I had thought that the Icknield Way was part of the Iron Age tracks that crossed Britain. As I understand it it links with the Ridgeway and also has another link towrds Sarum.
Kind Regards - TA -
Message 6
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Monday, 28th November 2011
TheoderickAur
Exactly-- Surely Iron production is an example of something that had to be centred where the raw materials could be found, and yet Iron was such an advance on previous "metals" (in the road building sense) that everyone wanted to get access to it..
Captain Cook realised that "the island of love", Tahiti, was not based upon free love as romantic Frenchmen thought.. Cook realised that the crew were pulling nails out of the actual fabric of the ship to pay for sex- the Tahitians having very quickly grasped the advantages of this metal.
Cass -
Message 7
Posted by stanilic (U2347429) on Tuesday, 29th November 2011
Cass
Christmas Common: know it quite well. A classic yet fascinating example of a common edge settlement in the Chilterns.
I am actually trying to get a feel on this issue as it keeps coming up in local meetings. The idea of the Icknield Way as an ancient long-distance route has entered the public imagination. I don't know who gets the most po-faced: those who now deny it existed or those who thought it was a given. The ramblers take the greatest offence!
In my view ancient man moved about the countryside as you and TA rightly point out and an escarpment is a pretty good landmark to use either on the right or the left depending on the direction in which you are going.
Then there is dear Dr. Gelling who argued that the Anglo-Saxons identified their route by following given landmarks which they had named in certain ways.
Either way a track of some sorts would have become established.
However, having said that we have the dafter examples of the Viatores who got some right but much wrong. In one case they got very snotty about a track the locals called the Roman Road but then invented another of their own which is just barking. The road the locals favoured is probably a Bronze Age track.
I think the idea of a long-distance track may be valid but it can't be evidenced until the twelfth century. -
Message 8
Posted by stanilic (U2347429) on Tuesday, 29th November 2011
TP
Thanks for the tip. I will look that one up.
I have done a lot of work on local turnpikes and cannot understand how anyone could mislay one. -
Message 9
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Tuesday, 29th November 2011
stanilic
When you say that it can not be evidenced until the twelfth century, does this mean that Roman records make no mention at all.
Just opening Jaquette and Christopher Hawkes I find metion of a revolution as the Middle Bronze Age becomes the Late:
At the same time , the founders grew increasingly inventive,and devised ingenious new techniques in casting which allowed them to speed up their output and elaborate their designs. The bronze-founders present an interesting social phenomenon. They formed themselves into a wealthy class almost independent of established society, a caste of intinerants who ranged wide regions in pursuit of markets. It seems that there were no middlemen, these travelling smiths making the implements that they sold. They acted also as scrap metal merchants, buying up their customer's broken or old-fashioned bronzes, probably taking them in part exchange for new types fresh from their own methods".
Shades of the "extra-social" and protected status of the "Free-masons" and the Ironworkers of the Middle Ages.
And, in fact, another of those childhood memories of the Chilterns was what a good place it was for flints, and centuries before these travelling bronze-founders one could imagine the Icknield Way having a role in the distribution of flints or flint-tools..
There is even later a mention of iron workers coming and settling in the Weald and then the trade moving towards. The La Tene warriors from the Continent in Third Century BC seem to have been keen on chalk lands where they could dig imposing and effective defensive positions.
For people to become wealthy through trade - as Mr Osborne might have said today- there does need to be a not inconsiderable flow of traffic, and I think that people too readily assume that warriors make war on anyone. Generally there is no "honour" to be gained by a warrior from beating up or killing the "honest workman" merely trying to make an honest living- and spreading wares that would benefit everyone.
Cass -
Message 10
Posted by stanilic (U2347429) on Tuesday, 29th November 2011
Cass
The flint and clay soils are the main feature of the Chiltern high ground. This is why so much is wooded as the soil is not good for arable. The chalklands had light soil ideal for the ard plough.
You may have hit on the basis for feudalism with your comment about warriors killing workmen. Can you remember the old adage that the knight fights for all, the church prays for all and the ploughman feeds all? I think that is in Piers Ploughman. Whilst the serf was not free, he was tied to the land so whoever owned the land had a ready workforce. This is possibly why elites bumped each other off.
There is nowt in the Roman record for Icknield Way as it wasn't one of theirs. It even goes to the north of Dunstable looping round to Limbury. The argument that it was a local route connecting settlements stands up in my view but the absence of records is very suggestive.
So you have Chris and Jacquetta Hawkes wee book? My mother knew them as a young woman and worshipped Chris Hawkes. She took a dim view of Jacquetta going off with Priestley, wasn't it? -
Message 11
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Tuesday, 29th November 2011
stanilic
Of course re warriors the Japanese were a bit special- A samurai was entitled to kill anyone he met on the road who failed to show him respect.. But that was just an extreme of a tradition in which the warrior was a "cut above" the common herd.
But in 1961 Papau New Guinnea when war (usually a one day affair) was still wages between the Kurelu and the Wittaia guest warriors would come from more distant villages- and they included one man who claimed a number of kills, but- though a useful asset on the battle-field was actually discounted behind his back because he killed just anybody.. In a war all the villagers were expected to turn out and join in the singing, chanting etc- but only warriors went on to the Hill that was the traditional place of slaughter, where warriors earned their reputations.
Pretty much consistent with what I saw in inner city schools. After initial "pecking order squabbles" in the first year boys who were good at fighting fought rarely- unless there was a point of principal and honour at stake.
In my first 2,200 strong boys comprehensive any boy who misbehaved when taught by a female teacher was considered "the lowest of the low" by his peers- and likely to get himself some "licks" from his peers. Just not a "manly" thing to do.. Oh the sexism of such times!
My Hawkes book is a relic of long ago.. And surely they were often on TV in the Fifties. If I ever knew anything about them as people it is lost in the sand of time.
Cass -
Message 12
Posted by stanilic (U2347429) on Tuesday, 6th December 2011
TP
I have had a look at pictures of the Blackstone Edge road and now remember it well. It was the steep hill and the central gully which I found odd when I saw it some decades ago. I was given a very hard Roman sell at the time so parked my reservations on the proverbial mental shelf.
Rain water does not drain into the gully and how could anything be brought up and down it other than on a pack animal? it would be easier to navigate across the landscape without the road.
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