Ancient and ArchaeologyΒ permalink
Vote for Thornborough Henges!
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.Β
Posted by Brigantes (U1879425) on Wednesday, 17th August 2005
On the Βι¶ΉΤΌΕΔ Yorkshire poll:
You may be aware that Thornborough's ritual landscpe is subject to a quarry application. The quarry company are keen to make out no-one really cares about Thornborough and it has no tourism potential.
A strong vote here would help change that perspective. -
Message 2
Posted by kevmar (U1902470) on Sunday, 21st August 2005
Yep I heard.
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Message 3
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Sunday, 21st August 2005
Re: message 1.
Brigantes,
I had to seek in the AA Road Atlas of Britain (Mark and Spencer) where Thornborough was situated. After a lot of research I found it between Masham and Sowerby. Not a big city I presume.
As a Belgian heading for the Hadrian Wall at the Newcastle side, I thought that it was in North Yorkshire, but it turned out to be in Northumbria. Has that "umbria" something to do with the Italian Umbria?
So I thought that Thornborough was situated near Newcastle. I thought it while I read that the Romans of the Hadrian wall had a lot to do with the Picts, of whom the Brigantes were a tribe. But South of the Wall. Indeed the Wall was very transparant and it was in the middle of the Pict's land, more as a stabilizing factor and as customs and yes to have soldiers in the middle of the Picts if their was disturbance.
Brigantes, can you enlighten an ignorant Belgian about the whole question? Also what is the main trump of Thornborough?
A last question, but if it don't suit you don't answer. I had the impression that a person here on the board was a "medievalist" but it turned out to be a teacher in mathematics, if I recall it well. For some odd reason I thought that it was a lady, I asked her?/him, but she/ he didn't answer to me. i suppose private reasons.
Brigantes, I have the same odd feeling that you are a lady.(small smile). Feel free to answer. And BTW it is not important at all. (other smile). Perhaps it was because you always were in the middle of that women concert on the Archaeological? (broad smile). Hope that Nelly or Fee don't see my smile...
Kind regards. -
Message 4
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Monday, 22nd August 2005
Re message 3
I'm afraid I have no information on Thornborough as I have never been there.
However, with regard to Hadrian's wall, it was built to control the movement of the native celtic tribes. The Brigantes were the most prominent and powerful tribe in northern England. The Picts were a separate celtic people who lived predominantly in the north east of Scotland, (although it may well be that "Pict" is a generic term for a number of Scottish Iron Age tribes).
As I understand it, the wall meant the Romans could monitor and control contact between the tribes. While impressive as a defensive fortification, that was not its prime purpose, as raiding Picts could, and did, simply get into boats and sail or row past it.
The Romans actually built a number of fortifications in what is now Scotland. The Antonine Wall was further north than Hadrian's Wall and ran from the Clyde to the Forth, the narrowest part of Scotland. They also built a string of forts and watchtowers along the Gask ridge even further north (River Tay). I believe there is a recent theory that the famous battle of Mons Graupius was actually fought near Gask, rather than much further north as has traditionally been assumed. I only saw that in a newspaper article a few weeks ago.
Regrettably, there is not much left of any of these Roam works, although there are some impressive ditches surrounding a fort at Braco in Perthshire. The Scottish Tourist Board do not make much of these, probably because the present day Scots wish to perpetuate the myth that the Romans could not conquer what became their country.
It has never occurred to me that the "umbria" in Northumbria could be linked to Umbria in Italy. I have never heard this suggested before, but that doesn't mean it is wrong. Many English place names come, naturally, from the time of the Angles, Saxons and, later Danes, but it could be that Northumbria is derived from a name given by the Romans. Certainly many towns and cities have names derived from Roman terms, most notably Chester, Manchester, etc. from Castra - a camp. -
Message 5
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 23rd August 2005
re: message 4.
Tony,
thank you very much for this excellent survey about Hadrian's wall.
Didn't know about the Antonine Wall, nor about the Gask ridge. When I am at the Hadrian's, I will ask for the Antonine and about the Gask ridge, looking for any reaction (devilish, sardonic smile).
Appreciated the Scottish approach. No Scot around? Warning: I am a Belgian, not an Englishman.
Tony, see you with more comments after the visit to Hadrian's wall.
Kind regards. -
Message 6
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Wednesday, 24th August 2005
Dear Paul,
I'm sure you will enjoy Hadrian's Wall. It is very impressive. I suspect quite a few people will have heard of the Antonine Wall, even through there is very little of it left to see, but I doubt many people will even have heard of the Gask ridge.
Regards,
Tony. -
Message 7
Posted by Gilgamesh of Uruk (U211168) on Thursday, 1st September 2005
Northumbria - North of the Humber (Latin name Abus, pre-Roman name Aber) is the best I can come up with
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Message 8
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 3rd September 2005
Re: message 4.
Dear Tony,
I am back. Yes I enjoyed the Hadrian wall and visited three parts of it.
I first thought to give my comments on my Newcastle thread in the Hub, but there I started already with some comments on binge drinking and scarce clothed young ladies walking to the night clubs in groups. Perhaps better to go further with my Yorkshire-Dutch friend John Heseltine overthere. The Hadrian's wall isn't quite the same subject and BTW. these Ancient Boards needs some support too with messages. I don't say anything about those, who trie to keep the Battlefield one alive...Or is it an English method to let it die? (cautious smile).
Other BTW: BRIGANTES, WHERE ARE YOU?
Kind regards,
Paul. -
Message 9
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 3rd September 2005
Re: message 8.
Tony, correction. I meant: Re: message 6 of course. Kind regards again. -
Message 10
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 3rd September 2005
Re: message 7.
Gilgamesh,
thank you for this explanation.
Of course as always you will be right. It is much more obvious than my supposition. But you know me now already. I am very inventive and imaginative...Do you remember Tassos the Greek...
Kind regards. -
Message 11
Posted by Brigantes (U1879425) on Sunday, 25th September 2005
Thornbrough Henges has a number of potential trumps.
Firstly, the site itself is a complex of some of the largest monuments created in Britain, At its hiatus, the structure was three massive and identical 240m circular walled structures made of earth, wood and plastered with gypsum. This each of these henges is spread over 1.6km of Yorkshire and appear to have been used as a temporary "ritual" venue for a large number of people - possibly the largest gathering in British prehistory - but that is simply an assumption based on the overall size of the structure and the short term camps that surround it.
However, this mighty structure hides an even greater secret. Thornborough is just one site out of quite a few that make up Britain's largest ancient monument complex - a string of monuments, each laying claim to being "super" monuments and spread out along two lines stretching for more than 20 miles.
A key and intriguing aspect of this complex is the fact that six of the seven super henges have an alomost identical construction.
There is also the matter of the suggested alignment to Orion's Belt, which would make this 3,500BC monument possible the first major monument so aligned. -
Message 12
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Monday, 26th September 2005
Re: Message 11.
Brigantes,
I suppose you are answering to my message 3.
Brigantes, if so I thank you very much for your reply. I did a bit of research on the internet now and saw an air photograph of one of the "henges" I suppose. I sought the word in my dictionary but didn't find it.
But the most amazing thing is that I some days ago saw a photograph in a hospital, where my wife worked before, asking for a walking around I think in the neighbourhood of Assebroek (near Bruges) and on the "affiche (advertisement paper?)" it was exactly such a photo as in Thornbrough, but only half a circle I believe, perhaps because the other half was demolished by farming. I will try to learn more about it next week.
I have a vague remembrance to have seen a book about other sites aligned along the Orion's belt.
BTW. I have seen the study of the University of Newcastle and other items related to it.
With support for the friends of the monuments overthere,
kind regards,
Paul. -
Message 13
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 27th September 2005
Addendum: Message 12.
Brigantes,
I phoned the hospital today and yes they knew about the "affiche" of the supposed "henge" and it is at Assebroek. It was for a bicycle tour including that site. The one promoting the tour will contact me and he seems to know more about the site.
Kind regards,
Paul. -
Message 14
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Wednesday, 28th September 2005
Addendum: message 13.
Brigantes,
I had a phone call with the man, who organized the bicycle tour and who made the lay-out of the "affiche" of the supposed "henge".
He said that it was indeed something like I mentioned and he received the air photograph from the City Archaeologist of Bruges and I can contact her to have more information. She received the photo he said from the university of Ghent.
It seems indeed to be the same case as in Thornborough. And as perhaps overthere, the man said that there is a building project to destroy the site. The building land is immensely expensive around Bruges...
I will try to speake with the City archaeologist tomorrow or Friday and ask her about any relationship with the "Henges" of England and refer to the sites I have found from the university of Newcastle.
Kind regards,
Paul. -
Message 15
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 1st October 2005
Addendum message 14.
Brigantes,
I was yesterday in the archaeological museum of Bruges. Met one of the collaborators of the city archaeologist. They have a website: www.raakvlak.be
Someone of the University of Ghent has made airphotographs of Flanders' archaeological marks: Semey Jacques. I found under Bourgeois J, Meganck Marc, Semey Jacques: "Cirkels in het land. Een inventaris van cirkelvormige structuren in de provincies Oost en West Vlaanderen, II. In archeologische Inventaris Vlaanderen. Buitengewone Reeks 5. Gent 1999 126 p. (circles in the land. An inventary of circle form like structures in the provinces of East and West Flanders Archaeological inventaris Flanders. Exceptional series 5. Ghent 126 pages)
If you want to see and download the picture of the circle in Assebroek.
click on www.raakvlak.be.
click on: "niewsbrief" (newsletter), click on "nieuwsbrief archief (newsletter archive) Click on the newsletter of 17-06-2005: "een nieuwe website voor Raakvlak". There you can see and download the photograph I mean: "vermoedelijk prehistorish monument te Assebroek" (supposed prehistoric monument at Assebroek).
I will contact the university of Ghent with the information of Thornborough Henges and all the stuff I found on the internet. I will keep you update about that.
Kind regards,
Paul. -
Message 16
Posted by Brigantes (U1879425) on Tuesday, 4th October 2005
Hi Paul,
No I'm not a lady.
Thanks for digging into this and please continue investigating.
I'm in the middle of setting up a new online magazine called World Heritage Alert. Linked to this is an existing online forum which has the aim of drawing together the international heritage campaign community in order to share news and views.
I run the TimeWatch campaign for Thornborough and am involved in a number of other campaigns. -
Message 17
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Saturday, 8th October 2005
Re: Message 16.
My dear manly Brigantes,
I will certainly not give up my investigation. Had no time this week, but next week I will contact the university of Ghent about the "Assebroek Henge".
In the meantime, thanks to you I am now in the archaeological circle of Bruges and received this evening my first newsletter.
I hope you will give some explanations on these boards about your investigations and your campaigns too.
Kind regards,
Paul. -
Message 18
Posted by Brigantes (U1879425) on Wednesday, 12th October 2005
Cheers Paul.
I am Chairman of TimeWatch.org, one of a number of campaign groups working to stop the quarrying of the Thornborough Henges ancient monument complex.
We are a pro-heritage rather than anti-quarry campaign. with more than 400 square miles of gravel beds, we just don't understand why our most important ancient places should be the target of quarrying. -
Message 19
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Sunday, 16th October 2005
Re: Message 18.
Brigantes,
thank you very much for your reply. Excuse for the delay, had a busy week last week.
Still having to call the University of Ghent about the Assebroek Henge.
Keep up doing the good work. You have my support from Belgium. I will try to let the University of Ghent contact that of Newcastle on the subject(smile). I don't believe these big shots in both universities will move (big smile). But on the other side, you never know.
Kind regards. -
Message 20
Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Monday, 24th October 2005
Re: Message 18 and 19.
Brigantes,
I did contact the University of Ghent. See Google: university of ghent: Click on Faculties and Departments: You have to seek in the : Faculty of Arts and Philosophy...(ver big smile). There: Department of Archaeology and ancient history of Europe.
I thought to contact Jacques Semey, because he was the man who made the aerial photographs it seems (associated scientific researcher (he is a pilot too), but I had Lic. Marc Meganck (scientific researcher aerial photography in East and West-Flanders) on the phone.
He was very friendly and knew immediately about the Assebroek circle, which is according to him very large, some 200 M, nearly the same in yards.
He said that it was not sure if it was an "henge" while it could be also a medieval circle. There was no one found in Belgium till now but there were other medieval ones in the rest of Europe, he said.
He said that up to now there wasn't a project for the Assebroek circle while there was not a threat for the moment and he (the circle) lays there to lay happy and not disturbed. That were also the words of an assistente of the Archaeology service of Bruges. If there is no threat for an archaeological site they let it mostly lay till they have time to do research...
I said also to him that I read today that the circular structures were burial mounds of the Bronze Age. I read it in a book about the language border between the Germanic and Romance languages coming from Γ‰taples in France to Switzerland. They follow the language border during the centuries, and meanwhile give a lot of information on prehistory, the Roman, the Celts and Germans based on multidisciplinary research from archaeology, history and linguistics. The linguists seems to have brought most of the three by the study of the toponymy. There was a photograph in it about a "circular burial found" from the Bronze Age from the University of Ghent by J. Semey. Are these Henges in Thornborough also burial mound circles from the Bronze Age?
Brigantes, that's all what I have for the moment for you.
Kind regards.
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