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Enduring ancient boundaries and the clues they give us
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Mr Pedant (U2464726) on Wednesday, 4th May 2011
I’d like to start a thread on ancient boundaries in Britain and their endurance.
I like the idea that many of our county boundaries pre-date the Anglo-Saxons and are based on Roman Civitates, in turn often based on the boundaries on Iron Age tribes.
For instance East Yorkshire corresponds to the Parisii, Kent to the Cantii, possibly Essex to the Trinovantii etc.
Many of our boundaries such as counties, hundreds, dioceses, parishes etc are very ancient and must give clues to our ancient history.
For instance it’s understood that a diocese of Worcester corresponds to the territory of the Hwicce people.
Looking at my map of Roman Britain and trying to work out where the traditional county boundaries lie I made two observations-
The northern boundary of Essex and Herts (both part of the AS kingdom of Essex) appear designed to ‘keep in’ a Roman Road running parallel to the northern boundary. Was this boundary originally that of a civitates and one whose boundaries were designed to make it responsible for the upkeep of that road.
The Western boundary of Kent does not extend as far as London Bridge, despite Kent being one of the wealthiest kingdoms in Britain and Surrey (meaning South district?) being considered a backwater. Indeed the boundary seems designed to keep the easternmost of the three major roman roads heading south through that county entirely within its boundaries.
Could Surrey be the ‘south district’ of a civitates based on London? With London responsible for the upkeep of these roads. Perhaps Middlesex was the northern portion.Link to this forum: Enduring ancient boundaries and the clues they give us
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Message 2
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Wednesday, 4th May 2011
Are you including "natural" boundaries such as rivers?
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Message 3
Posted by Mr Pedant (U2464726) on Wednesday, 4th May 2011
I suppose so, but major rivers would seem of less interest as they are obvious choices for boundaries and their selection and continuity are not a real surprise.
Link to this forum: Enduring ancient boundaries and the clues they give us
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Message 4
Posted by ArweRheged (U14720560) on Thursday, 5th May 2011
Hi Mr P,
Anecdotally, it looks as though Roman roads were often used as boundaries in later times - very often parish boundaries follow them and hedges or walls replace the actual road.
I'm no expert on the saaf, but your observations may well have hit on something. Do you suppose that Roman roads were used as boundaries because they were obvious, or because they were still in regular use and therefore keeping them within one's land allowed one freer movement?
The Iron Age tribal boundaries probably did shift a bit and were perhaps never that clear in the first place. A massive tribe like the Brigantes were almost certainly a fedaration of tribes, each with their own area, but whether those areas correspond to the later counties is difficult to say. It might have settled down a bit later on - the Coritani were spread across two or three moden counties, but one could perhaps make a case that modern Lindsey still matches Saxon Lindsey or that East Yorkshire still looks like the old Parisi territory - and perhaps that was also the original heartland of Deira too.
The role of London is also intriguing. It looks as though you argue that the real action was elsewhere - Colchester?
Regards,
A RLink to this forum: Enduring ancient boundaries and the clues they give us
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Message 5
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Thursday, 5th May 2011
I was particularly thinking of rivers which change theircourses. We had an interesting (well, I found it so) case near here a few years ago, where one bit of land, with no access to it, was in one council's area, because it used to be the left bank of a stream, but that has moved c50 metres. Eventually the two councils agreed to move the boundary to the current stream bank.
Link to this forum: Enduring ancient boundaries and the clues they give us
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Message 6
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Thursday, 5th May 2011
The Western boundary of Kent does not extend as far as London Bridge, despite Kent being one of the wealthiest kingdoms in Britain and Surrey (meaning South district?) being considered a backwater. Indeed the boundary seems designed to keep the easternmost of the three major roman roads heading south through that county entirely within its boundaries.
Could Surrey be the ‘south district’ of a civitates based on London? With London responsible for the upkeep of these roads. Perhaps Middlesex was the northern portion.Â
Watling Street, however, goes right across Kent and leaves the county at its western boundary (Deptford Creek). So surely the 'upkeep' of the road from Dover to Deptford Creek was the responsibility of Kent.Link to this forum: Enduring ancient boundaries and the clues they give us
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Message 7
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Friday, 6th May 2011
As an inhabitant of the region of the Great Northwood- with a fragment still less than 100 yards away- I might suggest that the northern border of British Kent quite deliberately did not go down towards the Thames..
After all what was there to gain? The Channel ports were much more convenient for Kent's needs, and for many centuries even after London was a great city- these hills and woods were famous for the smugglers routes through from the Channel into London- presumably avoiding the payments due in London- including that customary one to the keepers of the Tower of London..
I remember, however, rather amusing or intriguing a lecturer at Uni when I suggested that Mercia was a kind of "middle of nowhere" place defined more than anything else by its exclusion from other places; and hence the need for non-natural boundaries like Offa's Dyke.
Going back further, our school at Oxford was walled by a fragment of the old City wall, with in fact a round turret base protruding into the playground.. On occasion, therefore, we were given a front row seat of the Oxford tradition of "beating the bounds", which involved (as far as I remember) taking boys around to various key marker points that defined the limits of Oxford and ritually beating the ground.. There was a headstone just the other side of the Cherwell through the University Parks which was inscribed as another place for beating.. and here such beating clearly performed a valuable function of clearing the weeds and other vegetation away from this marker stone.
This had all the hallmarks of a very ancient tradition of marking out of territory- and passing the knowledge on to other generations.. Does anyone know whether the practice was carried on elsewhere?
CassLink to this forum: Enduring ancient boundaries and the clues they give us
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Message 8
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Friday, 6th May 2011
We used to see the annual "Sheriff's Ride" passing my grandparents house - see
Supposedly dating from the time of Queen Mary, local tradition reckons that it has "always been done"Link to this forum: Enduring ancient boundaries and the clues they give us
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Message 9
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Friday, 6th May 2011
Wasn't this carried out at St Stephen's in Ambridge on a tediously regular basis?
Ur, is your Sheriff's ride something like the Common Ridings in the Borders, riding the marches?Link to this forum: Enduring ancient boundaries and the clues they give us
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Message 10
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Friday, 6th May 2011
Take a look at the link on my previous post - do you think it sounds like it? In my day, some sheriffs still rode - but latterly, they use a land rover with a cutout of a horse's head on the bonnet.
Link to this forum: Enduring ancient boundaries and the clues they give us
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Message 11
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Friday, 6th May 2011
ferval
This is interesting.. Are these the "Border ridings" that controversially for some recently allowed girls to ride as well as boys?.. And the Yorkshire divisions- the Ridings- are presumably related to this tradition of marking boundaries?
But the OP made me think of maps in my 1990's History Atlas of Africa that showed pre-European Africa dotted with pockets of tribal heartland and no clear frontiers across vast areas of open space...
I rather think that the idea of markers and stones- not unlike the scent-markers left by lions, foxes etc.. were indicators of territory that are roamed rather than possessed.. It would appear that in Africa there were formalities that demanded signs of respect when passing through such territory, but nothing quite like our concept of a totally encircling boundary.
CassLink to this forum: Enduring ancient boundaries and the clues they give us
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Message 12
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Friday, 6th May 2011
Ur, it does sound a very similar sort of thing but rather less alcoholically fuelled.
They have grown into major tourist attractions and have of course developed their own, presumably recently augmented, customs. Further north in Lanarkshire these events are called Lanimers, the one in Lanark being the best known and have a Lanimer queen etc.
All good fun.Link to this forum: Enduring ancient boundaries and the clues they give us
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Message 13
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Friday, 6th May 2011
I was discussing with Catigern on another thread the other day that in places up in the Borders landholding was often on the basis of a mere service rent- viz having possession of a horse and riding equipment ready to defend the border..
It seems possible that these northern "ridings" also served the purpose of bringing everyone out together-- It was one way to make sure that there was not just one horse that got painted up differently to prove possession of "the rent"..
CassLink to this forum: Enduring ancient boundaries and the clues they give us
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Message 14
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Saturday, 7th May 2011
It depends when you are talking about, of course. Take a look at that Lichfield link, and read about the Court of Arraye, and subsequent Green hill Bower.
Link to this forum: Enduring ancient boundaries and the clues they give us
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Message 15
Posted by CASSEROLEON (U11049737) on Sunday, 8th May 2011
Sorry if I have sidetracked the thread -- But last night I looked again at a local history and the details that it gives of the walking of the boundaries here in Norwood, which seems to have happened every two years, starting at Rogation Time.
The crucial markers were great oak trees- one not far away showing a place where five parishes all came together. The choice of oak trees- that can live 1000 years- seems to be a practical idea- clearly visible, all with their own individuality, and immovable. It seems likely that they would have been used in pre-Roman days.
There was also a description of the way that common boundaries were patrolled by groups from either side- at a safe distance, but checking that the others respected the true boundary and did not encroach.. One could see this happening amongst older "tribal" societies too.
Moreover the walks included both beating and feasting.. And again the presence of the others may well have been a factor. Historically it was often the choir boys- as I rememebered from my Oxford days- but the beatings were handed out to the boys. Interestingly this is in keeping with the fact that the Egyptians had one word for teaching and beating. It seems that the boys were beaten in order to create a firm place association "lest they forget".. But there was probably also some ancient idea of showing "the others" just what the next generation were made of- to warn them off..
But there were also funds allocated to provide for drinking and food, and one could not rule out that at times some of the scenes on the Western Front that first Xmas were not foreshadowed. Fair exchange is no robbery.
CassLink to this forum: Enduring ancient boundaries and the clues they give us
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Message 16
Posted by stanilic (U2347429) on Sunday, 8th May 2011
Mr. Pedant
We sit on the shoulders of giants. On reading your post I immediately thought of Margary and the Viatores.
There is an old county boundary now defunct which I suspect might possibly be Bronze Age. I can't prove it but given other local features including an Iron Age earthwork, a possible Roman temple and an alleged Roman road I feel it is definitely possible.
We have to accept that there is a distinct possibility that later Saxon parishes were based on earlier Saxon estates, which were based on earlier Romano-British villa properties which had their origins in pre-history.
The problem is that we just don't know and are dependent upon the archaeological record for any support or confirmation that it can provide. Even then this is the Department of Assertion & Suggestion.
It is great fun though, studying maps, walking ancient tracks and delving through the archives. You find out so many other interesting things in the landscape.Link to this forum: Enduring ancient boundaries and the clues they give us
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Message 17
Posted by Mr Pedant (U2464726) on Friday, 13th May 2011
The Western boundary of Kent does not extend as far as London Bridge, despite Kent being one of the wealthiest kingdoms in Britain and Surrey (meaning South district?) being considered a backwater. Indeed the boundary seems designed to keep the easternmost of the three major roman roads heading south through that county entirely within its boundaries.
Could Surrey be the ‘south district’ of a civitates based on London? With London responsible for the upkeep of these roads. Perhaps Middlesex was the northern portion.Â
Watling Street, however, goes right across Kent and leaves the county at its western boundary (Deptford Creek). So surely the 'upkeep' of the road from Dover to Deptford Creek was the responsibility of Kent. I think Kent\Surrey was the strongest part of my nebulous argument and I’m afraid I seem to have overplayed my hand.
Agree about Watling Street, I meant the three north-south routes over London Bridge, but unfortunately for my argument the easternmost does actually enter Kent before it gets to Sussex.
Interesting to note that Kent extends a little beyond Deptford Creek, so presumably there was a cross-creek community significant enough to be a factor in deciding the boundary. Seems interesting that they didn’t go all the way to the crossing though, perhaps there was diplomatic value in retaining Surrey as a buffer zone between Kent and the Britons then middx\Essex who occupied the London area.
Beating of the bounds: Still done to mark the bounds of the parish? Of the Tower of London I believe.
Suppose that while my arguments are weak, boundaries are remembered by people on the ground, not the rulers and so will be very stable and conservative in an age without maps.Link to this forum: Enduring ancient boundaries and the clues they give us
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