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Was the Fyrd operating in the mid 5th Century?

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by TheodericAur (U14260004) on Saturday, 17th July 2010

  It seems probable that Germans (Saxons) settled in Roman Britannia during the occupation either as foederrati or retired Roman soldiers.
  
  In this case there was probably an indigenous Saxon population in place during the 5th Century.
  
  With the influx of invited Warriors during the mid 5th century could the Fyrd system have been used to create armies to harry the Brythons in the South of the country?
  
  Kind Regards - TA

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  Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Sunday, 18th July 2010

  This link might provide your answer?
  
  
  
  Tacitus was writing about Germans in the 1stC ad, and their fighting organisations may well have still been intact during the 5thC? Infantry and little/no 'cavalry'?

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  Posted by TheodericAur (U14260004) on Sunday, 18th July 2010

  Hi ManUpstairs
  
  Many thanks for the link.
  
  I apprecate that the Fyrd was possibly in existence but did it start in Britain with the advent of the warriors invited to Britain by the Council in the mid 5th Century utilising the "Anglo Saxon" farmers already established here?
  
  Kind Regards - TA

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  Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Sunday, 18th July 2010

  I personally think, rightly or wrongly, that it- whatever the exact manner or variant of 'Fyrd'- was the foundation of the Germanic way of warfare, and whether it was utilised by invaders (or 'invited') in the 5thC or by those serving the Romans, was ingrained into the Teutonic psyche?
  
  The Germanic Teutons, and later Anglo-Saxons, were a violent, warrior-based peoples, and must have had such a style of warfare as standard military practice?
  
  

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  Posted by stanilic (U2347429) on Sunday, 18th July 2010

  There are umpteen definitions for an army in Old English starting with just three warriors and then working up.
  
  The fyrd was the name given to a system implemented by Alfred the Great to ensure he always had a standing army to fight the largely professional Scandinavian warlords who had devastated most of Anglo-Saxon Britain. Alfred split and rotated military duty so that whilst some remained in arms to protect the kingdom the others could till their fields. He also reduced the number of hides necessary to arm a soldier capable of performing in the front ranks. It is also likely such a warrior would have his own armed servants to support him thus swelling the size of the army in the field.
  
  Prior to the fyrd Anglo-Saxon kingdoms could only mobilise for war at certain times of the year as the agrarian cycle permitted. This rather constrained the times for military action which was why the predominantly professional Scandinavian army was so successful.

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• Message 6

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  Posted by TheodericAur (U14260004) on Tuesday, 20th July 2010

  Hi Stanilic
  
  I had always thought that the Fyrd was available to a War Lord or leader from quite early on prior to Alfred.
  
  What I was wondering was whether it was possible that if 150 or so warriors did arrive (Gildas 3 keels) could they have used the Fyrd system to use the local farmers as an extension of their army?
  
  Then by expanding the warrior group by further invites could have increased the size of the army when required to using a larger Fyrd.
  
  I was wondering whether this was a change from Roman methodologies of having a fully paid up army?
  
  Kind Regards - TA
  
  

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• Message 7

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  Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Tuesday, 20th July 2010

  Hi TA
  
  Don't you feel that there are three ways of raising an army?
  
  1. Paid up professionals - the Roman model.
  2. Militia service to local landholder based on some type of property qualification - the Clans or the fyrd.
  3. Fight with us for a share of the profits.
  
  Surely the fyrd is a mid- to late-Saxon institution and it is an anachronism to employ the term in the 5th century context. I imagine that Saxon arrivals in their 3 (or 30) keels were often welcomed for their military experience and their craft knowledge. But in the event of conflict is not (3) a more realistic model?
  
  Best wishes,
  
  TP

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• Message 8

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  Posted by TheodericAur (U14260004) on Tuesday, 20th July 2010

  Hi TP
  
  It would appear that Tacitus mentions a form of Fyrd by German Tribes in the first century that was based around a β€œking” with his companions who were in fact paid for as you state (scenario 3) but often in goods not precious metals, the farmers who gave some of their time in lieu of protection (scenario 2) and the nobility (King) getting paid directly (scenario 1) by the Romans.
  
  It would seem that this is the basis for the Fyrd which was a standard across Germanic Tribes.
  
  To my way of thinking this scenario would fit well with the hypothesis of having small warbands which could, if required, be expanded in times of need to react to a larger force.
  
  It would also explain the reference that the Germans rebelled because they were not paid their tribute of food. Now if there was a famine as Gildas says food would have been at a premium and far from the Brythons nor wanting to pay the Germans perhaps it was the case that they just couldn’t as they needed the food for themselves.
  
  Kind Regards - TA
  

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• Message 9

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  Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Tuesday, 20th July 2010

  Hi TA
  
  You have stimulated me to dust off my copy of Germania if I can find it. But meanwhile I feel really uncomfortable in applying a tribal characteristic of 1st C Germany to 5th-10th C Britain. Few human institutions are quite so long lived!
  
  Best wishes,
  
  TP

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• Message 10

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  Posted by Herewordless (U14549396) on Tuesday, 20th July 2010

  Apparently, Tacitus's accounts of the Germanic tribes must be understood with caution.

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• Message 11

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  Posted by TheodericAur (U14260004) on Wednesday, 21st July 2010

  Hi TP
  
  I think that the structure of a King or Chieftan being surrounded by his body guard of picked and paid troops all suppported by the populace which are co-opted to fight for their master in return for protection and for the Chieftan to put this army at the disposal of a High King for profit is pretty much a natural and standard state of affairs for many centuries pre and post 1066.
  
  Why I am making a point of this here is that the Roman model was perhaps used to by the Council to hire in Warbands to defend Britain as foederatti in the Roman manner.
  
  The people who came over in 3 keels were not farmers they were soldiers.
  
  Land was given to them and food was the payment. No doubt the land had to be farmed to be of any worth and where these warriors settled they would have needed farmers to make the land pay.
  
  In turn they would have protected them.
  
  Either these would have been immigrants from their own land or locals who may have been Saxon / Germans from the Roman era as we discussed.
  
  It would seem possible that if there was a basis of people paying for protection in the form of going into battle when required for a limited period as part of the payment, that this apparently small band could raise a considerable army quickly which would be a great help in offence where required.
  
  Now we suddenly have the possibility of an army that could make swift progress and gains and yet fade away as if nothing had happened and reverted back to their main job of farming.
  
  This means that these people would not have to be paid and the problems and costs of having a standing army in the field disappears.
  
  Kind Regards - TA

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 10.

  Posted by TheodericAur (U14260004) on Wednesday, 21st July 2010

  Hi Man Upstairs
  
  I totally agree - I think that you can see from these posts that we tend to be fairly conservative when taking any written records into account.
  
  Kind Regards - TA

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