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Romans and Eskimos?
This discussion has been closed.
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Message 1.
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Monday, 28th June 2010
I was listening to an audio version of Juvenal's Satires and I am positive that, in one throw-away line about the extent to which Roman arms have travelled, he mentions Ireland and Eskimos. I had heard about the reference to Ireland before but Eskimos? That is stretching things a bit.
Of course, maybe I mis-heard, or it could be the translator who did seem to take some liberties with using modern parlance which can give misleading impressions but I wondered whether anyone could shed any light on what the term might acually refer to.
Cheers,
Tony -
Message 2
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Monday, 28th June 2010
Hi Tony
I believe that Inuit were only moving into Greenland during the Medieval period when, of course, they encountered the Vikings. Even if we accept that Roman explorers visited Orkney, Shetland and the Faroes they couldn't have meet them; could they?
Best wishes
TP -
Message 3
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Monday, 28th June 2010
Even if random Roman ships occasionally reached really up to northern Scandinavia or Greenland, the return info would not be digested enough to be well accepted and understood. For example, when the Massaliote captain Pytheas returned from his voyages in the northern seas he clearly discribed Polar atmospheric phenomena and complete & constant night (things not studied and largely not known back then despite knowledge of earth's spherical shape and differential night/day durations with latitudes), and it was on the basis of these descriptions of his that most of his contemporaries did not believe him and he was taken more seriously much much later in post-Renaissance times.
If a Roman ship went that north and returned, being an occasional one-off style visit, it would mostly convey minimal information of almost nothig of the people that lived there. While Ireland was very close, and thus in contact, with the Roman Empire, we have little reference to original Scandinavian tribes by Romans (who mostly knew them via Bourgoundians, Goths and Vandals who derived from Scandinavian tribes that moved to the south), let alone having references about smaller and more scarce Inuit tribes in the polar region. If Romans reached up there, most probably than not they would had met no-one. If they met anyone they would have trouble communicating with them, and they would be only buying some clothing and fish and then having seen there would be nothign much of interest to trade from up there, they would go back as fast as possible. -
Message 4
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Tuesday, 29th June 2010
TP
What about the Dorset culture.
We know now that the Romans were in serious contact with Scandinavia, Viking navigation wasn't rocket science. -
Message 5
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Tuesday, 29th June 2010
Hi Haestan
Thanks for the link. I have to admit that the 'Dorset Culture' was completely new to me; I'm really shamefully ignorant about New World archaeology.
There are masses of Roman artefacts in Denmark sure enough although these are assumed to have moved by the land route from the German provinces. Since there are Roman artefacts in Shetland that might well have arrived in Roman ships those same ships might easily have reached southern Norway where some Roman material has been found. Whether this represents 'serious contact' or not depends on your definition.
It the strict sense Viking navigation wasn't rocket science, unless you have some amazing new theory of longship propulsion to advance! But I'm not sure what more general point you are trying to make.
Kind regards
TP -
Message 6
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Tuesday, 29th June 2010
It the strict sense Viking navigation wasn't rocket science, unless you have some amazing new theory of longship propulsion to advance! But I'm not sure what more general point you are trying to make.
Navigating by latitude was known in Roman times and the St Peter Port Guernsey ship was certainly capable of making the journey.
I did a quick google but couldn't find anything on Roman/Dorset archaeology. -
Message 7
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Wednesday, 30th June 2010
I suspect the reference I heard may actuallty be to Scandivanian culures. The translator did seem to take some liberties. For example, he mentions the "Yugoslavian coast" in a later section and he does seem to use modern expressions in the translation. MInd you, I think "Eskimos" is going a bit far.
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Message 8
Posted by Zama (U14312920) on Thursday, 1st July 2010
Apparently a Polar Bear was displayed in the Roman Arena during Nero's reign (1st century AD)
Presumably this was obtained through trading contacts from the northern reaches of Scandinavia. Maybe tales of "Eskimos" were about people living in places like Lapland.
The Romans seem sometimes to be a little like Americans in regard to travel. Why go anywhere outside the Empire when the Empire itself is so massive?
However, there are tantalising reports and hints of various Roman travels outside the Empire:-
An expedition to Ethiopia (and Lake Victoria?)
Travels down the west coast of Africa - how far?
A Roman ship wreck off the coast of Brazil. Was this off-course or on an actual mission?
A Roman fort in Ireland? No consensus on this one. -
Message 9
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Thursday, 1st July 2010
Hi Zama
We have discussed the Roman fort in Ireland and I think that 'amphora' off Brazil have also featured in these threads. Do you have a reference for the polar bear? The modern range of Ursus maritimus is nowhere near Lapland!
Regards,
TP -
Message 10
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 1st July 2010
Hi TP
Nero's alleged polar bear (which I've heard many times stated as undisputed fact) comes from a passage by the Roman poet Calpurnius Siculus who wrote about a visit to the circus which may have been during Nero's reign;
"I watched sea-calves with bears fighting with them, and a herd of creatures called by the name of horses, but ugly, that are born in that river which irrigates the crops sown on its banks with its waves in the spring” "
While this may seem an amazing leap of assumption based on the English translation above, the original Latin is what has led to speculation it was polar bears he was referring to:
"aequoreos ego cum certantibus ursis
spectavi vitulos et equorum nomine dictum,
sed deforme pecus, quod in illo nascitur amne
qui sata riparum vernantibus irrigat undis."
"Certantibus", which means "pitted against" is a phrase usually reserved for instances where natural or usual enemies join in combat (dog and cat, cat and mouse, Caesar and Pompey etc). Since he is globe-trotting in his references at this point the assumption is that the seals and the bears came from the same "exotic" environment.
Personally I don't buy it.
A much surer reference to polar bears in hot climes comes from Athenaeus, a 3rd century CE Egyptian/Greek writer who states unequivocally that Ptolemy II was in the habit of parading a polar bear through Alexandria followed by men carrying giant phalluses every now and then during a particular religious feast (wasn't religion so much more fun one time?). The only problem there is that he was writing 500 years after the alleged event and the alleged polar bear. -
Message 11
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Thursday, 1st July 2010
Hi Nordmann
Many thanks indeed. I'm so impressed by your show of erudition I need a large sauvignon blanc to stave off imminent collapse.
But it is hard to believe sure enough. Seals versus any sort of bear in a circus would be a short and un-entertaining contest. A Nile hippopotamus, if that it is what it was, might give you more of a show, but please don't try this at home.
You know better than me how far north of the Norwegian mainland the polar bear is now found. I can't believe that the Romans could have collected one.
Kind regards,
TP -
Message 12
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
Unless the earth was undergoing one of its cooler phases around the time in question then it could be possible that the polar bear ventured further south than they are found today?
Or is it possible that the Romans aquired a polar bear through trade rather than actually finding one in the wild themselves? -
Message 13
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
Hi id,
The climate in northern Europe during the Roman era is widely thought to have been at least the equal of today's. Some climate scientists have even talked about a 'Roman Warm Period'. There is some evidence that they grew grapes in Britain, but not olives!
I could certainly not disprove a trade in polar bears but catching them north of Norway and feeding them on the journey to Rome would be huge problems, whoever was responsible!
Best wishes,
TP -
Message 14
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
Thanks TP, I had forgotten about the grapes in Britain. So, of course the climate had to be warmer in the North.
But olives can be a sensitive tree and they do need a dry climate, I think that even a warmer Britain would still be too wet.
Polar bear cubs wouldn't be nearly so difficult to carry and feed as an adult would. I'm sure some wouldn't survive the journey but a couple just might if looked after well. Sorry to be a pest but for some reason I'm fixated on the practicalities of carrying polar bears south, I really need to get out more! -
Message 15
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
I could certainly not disprove a trade in polar bears but catching them north of Norway and feeding them on the journey to Rome would be huge problems, whoever was responsible!
A couple of cubs captured in northern Norway could easily make their way via the Baltic to Rome.
Bestiarii were very popular in the arena, so a polar cub grown to adult would probably be the ultimate challenge.
I believe the Greenland Vikings used to catch the adults at sea and drown them. -
Message 16
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
Hi id
If the idea pleases you why not stick with it?
But what do you think you feed polar bear cubs on? Polar bear milk that's what. Unless you propose to take a mother along to feed them you would have to wait til they're weaned. Two years old plus I believe.
Then they're quite large at that stage!
TP -
Message 17
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
Three months after two orphaned polar bear cubs were rescued in Alaska, the two half-year-old bears have put on weight and seem to be adapting to their new home in the San Diego Zoo.
When they were found in March by wildlife biologists in Point Barrow, Alaska, each cub only weighed about 16 pounds.
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Message 18
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
Ah TP, but at what age do polar bear cubs start eating solid food? Just because they are not weaned until 2yrs doesn't mean they wouldn't also be eating fish etc from a much earlier age. Humans do.
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Message 19
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
OK, enough fair. Of course the Romans would have had polar bears. How blind I must have been not to see it.
TP -
Message 20
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
No, I take it all back!
Haesten's link states: "For up to 20 months they depend on their mother for milk (which is the richest of any bear species at 35 percent fat) and protection".
Apparently the nice people at San Diego zoo devised a special replacement formula; could the Roamns have done the same?
TP -
Message 21
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
Sorry if I've offended TP, it wasn't my intention. I'm in no way an expert and I'm definitely not saying that the bears had to have been in Rome, imo more than likely they weren't. Or possibly the bear mentioned was an albino or brown bear painted white!
Merely that I don't think it can be completely discounted that the Romans somehow managed to get hold of a genuine polar bear. The rarety value alone would have been well worth the trouble. -
Message 22
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
Hi id,
Offended? Not a bit of it; this is fun.
Caligula, I think it was, dressed slaves up as German prisoners by making them wear yellow wigs; he would be quite capable of lime washing a European brown bear.
Best wishes.
TP -
Message 23
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
Oh no crossed posts, and you've taken it back too TP!! Well I'm off to bed now to mull further on polar bears and Roman handlers missing a few fingers, research will have to wait until tomorrow!
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Message 24
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
TP
They were capable of getting Elephants to Britain. -
Message 25
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Friday, 2nd July 2010
Hi Haesten
We've discussed this before I think. If true it was only once and it was a much simpler problem than polar bears.
1. The elephants are vegetarians and will forage on the way if taken by land. They don't need to be provide with fresh seals, fish, or mothers' milk.
2. The elephants could be found in Ethiopia or Syria, that is within the Empire or just outside with a land journey to an imperial port. The nearest polar bears would seem to be hundreds of miles outside the empire and would have to be brought the whole way by sea.
3. Even war elephants were domesticated and trained with specialist handlers. Polar bears are wild.
But nice try!
TP -
Message 26
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Saturday, 3rd July 2010
You know better than me how far north of the Norwegian mainland the polar bear is now found. I can't believe that the Romans could have collected one.
Polar bears can swim for hundreds of miles. Didn't one swim to Iceland a couple of years ago? -
Message 27
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Saturday, 3rd July 2010
Polar bears are native to Spitsbergen and are not unknown on mainland Norway.
They are also close relatives of the Kodiak/Grizzly, which can and do survive on a vegetarian diet.
The male polar is not fully grown until 6 years, 5 for a female. -
Message 28
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Saturday, 3rd July 2010
Pliny the Elder.
CHAP. XXXVI
"We find it recorded in the Annals of the Romanes, that when M. Piso and M. Meßala were consuls, Domitius Ænobarbus an Ædile Curule, upon the 14 day before the Calends of October, exhibited 100 Numidian beares to be baited and chased in the great Cirque, and as many Æthiopian hunters. And I marveile much, that the chronicle nameth Numidian, since it is certein, that no bears come out of Africk." -
Message 29
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Saturday, 3rd July 2010
Hi Haesten
Well I don't know so much.
Polar bears are found on Svalbard which is Norwegian territory but there is unfrozen water between the Norwegian mainland and Svalbard (remember those Arctic convoys). So if you claim Ursus maritimus is 'not unknown on mainland Norway' you have to postulate a transport mechanism.
I'm not sure that the dietary habits of another bear species are terribly helpful here. Few Arctic mammals are vegetarian and the fact is that Polar bears subsist mainly on seals.
My point, if you will forgive the repetition, is: that it is a great deal easier to take a domesticated, vegetarian animal from inside the Roman Empire out, than it would be to take a large, wild, carnivore from way outside the Empire in.
Best wishes,
TP -
Message 30
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Saturday, 3rd July 2010
I've been diverted by elephants and haven't even had time to research polar bears today!
After his African campain, Pompey Magnus returned to Rome with some elephants. In an effort to out-do everyone, the monumental ego that was Pompey had decided to have his chariot pulled by elephants in his truimphal parade. When the grand day dawned and all was ready to begin Pompey found that the elephants wouldn't fit through the gate in the Servian Wall. Whereby he threw a monumental tantrum on the road whilst everyone looked on and the panicked slaves and handlers hurredly tried to unhitch and back-up the elephants and horses be bought to pull the chariot (and an humiliated Pompey) instead!
Amusing story, but I do wonder what happened to the poor elephants. -
Message 31
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Saturday, 3rd July 2010
TP
They often get stranded on ice flows and have been sighted around Berlevåg in Finnmark.
I'm sure a hungry juvenile would not turn down a Salmon, the trade route from the Baltic along the northern rivers would have had plenty of fish.
"When other food is unavailable, polar bears sometimes eat muskox, reindeer, small rodents, seabirds, shellfish, fish, eggs, kelp, berries, and human garbage (the garbage dump in Churchill, Canada, had to be closed and moved because of this activity)."
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Message 32
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Saturday, 3rd July 2010
"and have been sighted around Berlevåg in Finnmark."
Can you give us any idea about how often?
TP -
Message 33
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Saturday, 3rd July 2010
TP
No, sorry.
The Gulf Stream only stops the ocean freezing as far as Murmansk. -
Message 34
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Sunday, 4th July 2010
Well, unfortunately I haven't been able to find at what age a polar bear mother would introduce solid food into the diet of her young. Overall there does not seem to be all that information available. However, when polar bears wean their young at 2 and 1/2yrs their maternal duties are considered over and from this point on the cubs are to survive their own. Suggesting that the mother will have already taught the cubs to hunt and scavage fish and seal before the 2yr mark.
I did find that in one area of Canada polar bears can wean their young as early as one and a half years rather than the two and a half years elsewhere. The reason why is unknown but is, in a way, proof that cubs can survive without their mother's milk from an earlier age.
And, as Viz suggested above, polar bears are great swimmers and it is not all that uncommon to find them up to 300kms from the coast. Not bad for a large animal who can only manage (what appears to be) a rather clumsy dog-paddle. -
Message 35
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Sunday, 4th July 2010
Well I think that's all very clear now.
A Roman ship somewhere west of Murmansk encountered a polar bear between 18 months and two years of age swimming several hundred kms from the nearest land, or possibly sitting on an ice-flow. It was captured and kept alive with vegetables on the long journey south and through the western Mediterranean. Once in Rome it was matched against seals in the amphitheatre to the applause of the people.
It's so obvious really it's odd it isn't in all the books!
TP -
Message 36
Posted by islanddawn (U7379884) on Sunday, 4th July 2010
I'm sure it was in all the books TP, but unfortunately the information has not survived to this day. It is rumoured, that in a effort to hush reports, the polar bears ate them.
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Message 37
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Sunday, 4th July 2010
Since the whole supposition of polar bears in ancient Rome is based on what is, after all, a very liberal interpretation of a poem designed not to inform posterity of circus activities during Nero's reign but to juxtapose the delight to be had in witnessing fantastic and exotic spectacles (even imaginary ones) against the loneliness of witnessing such things without the company of one's homosexual lover, I would suggest trying to assess the animal's prowess at swimming and living on a vegetable diet is rather moot in the context.
For the record polar bears are not prodigious swimmers to the extent that they have ever been tracked over a distance of 100km - and that was considered a feat exceptional enough to make the news here in Norway when it happened. The bear was assisted by fortuitous resting on ice floes en route and most probably had never intended such an epic journey. Nor are they regularly washed up in Finnmark or other parts of mainland Norway. They have however turned up in Iceland occasionally (one was shot there only a few weeks ago), Iceland being in the natural path of ice floe movement from the areas much further north where they breed.
I would contend that polar bears, had they been exhibited at all in Rome, would have left a more definite record behind them. Augustus, for example, built up an impressive menagerie (as did other emperors, including Nero) and their more exotic elements have been noted by contemporaries. Something so difficult to acquire and of such inestimable rarity to a Roman, I imagine, would have ended up in such a menagerie, not in a ten-minute circus act. But there's no mention of it ever having happened, which is strange, since such an occasion would have been interpreted without doubt as evidence for Thule, something which excited lyricists and botanists alike at the time. -
Message 38
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Sunday, 4th July 2010
As of course would knowledge of humans indigenous to the region, and we know that even as late as the 4th century the existence of either humans or indeed land corresponding to then ancient Greek rumours of Thule were still entirely speculative.
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Message 39
Posted by TheodericAur (U14260004) on Sunday, 4th July 2010
Hi TP
Well if Romulus and Remus could survive......?
TA -
Message 40
Posted by Temperance (U14455940) on Saturday, 10th July 2010
Londoners in 1252 must have been amazed by the sight of a polar bear swimming in the Thames. The bear, which belonged to Henry III and was kept in the Tower menagerie, was allowed to have the occasional swim in the river so he could catch fish.
A writ was issued to the Sheriff of London directing him "to furnish six pence a day to support our White Bear in our Tower of London; and to provide a muzzle and iron chain to hold him when out of the water; and a long, strong rope to hold him when he was fishing in the Thames." -
Message 41
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Saturday, 10th July 2010
Hi SST
This is very exciting news.
Are we sure the bear was polar? Who gave it to Henry III? How did they get it to London?
Is any of this known?
Best wishes,
TP -
Message 42
Posted by Temperance (U14455940) on Saturday, 10th July 2010
Hi TP,
You can read about the bear - definitely polar - in "The Tower Menagerie" by Daniel Hahn - a lovely eccentric little book.
This is not him:
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Message 43
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Saturday, 10th July 2010
Ohthere reported to King Alfred that the people who lived around Archangel were very rich, most likely trappers and traders.
It's possible our polar bear could have made it to Rome via the Russian trade routes.
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Message 44
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Saturday, 10th July 2010
The only polar bears ever spotted in or around Archangel, to the best of my knowledge, were the American soldiers who landed there in 1919. Archangel is even more unlikely to receive visits from ice-floe marooned polar bears than Finnmark!
How does Ottar's 9th century impression of the people living in Archangel in any way support the idea that live polar bears were somehow transported 3,000 kilometres along "Russian trade routes" in the 1st century (3 centuries before the Slavs developed such routes and 7 centuries before the Rus)? -
Message 45
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Saturday, 10th July 2010
They traded walrus ivory, where there are walrus there are generally polar bears also.
If there was a polar bear in Rome, we can be pretty certain it didn't get there on an ice-floe. -
Message 46
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Saturday, 10th July 2010
walrus and polar bear do not share the same range. Walrus ranges much further afield.
And who were "they" in Nero's time who were doing this trade polar bear with Rome? -
Message 47
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Saturday, 10th July 2010
Are you saying the Archangel area was uninhabited in Nero's time?
Ohthere claimed the Sami were virtually vassals of the people who lived there in his day. -
Message 48
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Saturday, 10th July 2010
What bearing has Ottar's view on 1st century trade?
What evidence is there of Archangel trading with Nero's Rome?
Why do you believe there was ever a polar bear in Rome?
I can't believe I'm having this exchange. -
Message 49
Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Saturday, 10th July 2010
What evidence is there of Archangel trading with Nero's Rome?
Only his polar bear as far I know.
Why do you believe there was ever a polar bear in Rome?
Far more likely than your Irish cattle that could make milk without water, I would have thought? -
Message 50
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Saturday, 10th July 2010
What are you talking about?
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