Ancient and ArchaeologyΜύ permalink
pre celtic travellers
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by Mckay1402 (U5278290) on Tuesday, 15th June 2010
I am trying to find out what the possibilities of a pre celtic briton (beaker or pict related) travelling to greece at about the time of the trojan war (1250 BCE ish). I think there is no reason why this could not have happened as we know they had boats and the civilization in Northern Scotland seems to be fairly advanced. What would be the limitations and obstacles?
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Message 2
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Tuesday, 15th June 2010
Hi mckay1402,
Could you give us a little more information? Would the journey have to have a purpose? Would it need to be a return trip or would a one way visit be sufficient? Does it have to be by sea or could it involve a land crossing?
TP -
Message 3
Posted by henvell (U1781664) on Tuesday, 15th June 2010
The Phoenians were obtaining Cornish tin ca 1000BC.
There is no reason that the traffic should have been one way.The Picts post date the Celts. -
Message 4
Posted by Mckay1402 (U5278290) on Wednesday, 16th June 2010
The records for the picts post date the celts in Britain but there are theries that they spoke a non indo european language which suggests that they were probably there before the celts.
The background to this query is that I'm trying to write a book which involves a journey over land and see from the north of scotland to Troy. I intend it to be a series and the main character will encounter various bronze age societies. -
Message 5
Posted by Stoggler (U14387762) on Wednesday, 16th June 2010
The records for the picts post date the celts in Britain but there are theries that they spoke a non indo european language which suggests that they were probably there before the celts.
Μύ
There are also theories that they spoke a P-Celtic language (i.e. related to Brythonic, the varieties that begat Welsh, Cornish and Cumbrian): what linguistic evidence we have (place name and personal names) do give some support to these theories. However, it is not really possible to state categorically one way or the other. -
Message 6
Posted by Mckay1402 (U5278290) on Wednesday, 16th June 2010
I know. it's extremely frustrating. I can see some logic behind the theory of a basque type language but not being able to know for sure is terribly annoying.
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Message 7
Posted by Stoggler (U14387762) on Wednesday, 16th June 2010
I can see some logic behind the theory of a basque type language Μύ
It's funny how the Basques are being used as some all conquering pre-Roman prehistoric peoples, the source of so much DNA and so many languages!
The linguistic map of western Europe before (vulgar) Latin changed the linguistic scene was complex with many languages spoken over the continent, many of which we know little or nothing at all. There will have been many changes to the linguistic situation prior to Rome's advance across the continent with no evidence left, and plenty of change evidenced since: so why do people fixate on the one non-Indo European language that still manages to exist in one corner of western Europe? The ability for a language and/or culture to survive and develop in one region is no indication of an earlier much-larger geographical spread for that language. -
Message 8
Posted by Mckay1402 (U5278290) on Wednesday, 16th June 2010
I wasn't saying that they spoke Basque specifically. I was saying that I see the logic behind them having spoken a language related to basque in the same way that most celtic languages are related and span most of Europe or have done at some point. The reason that people fixate on Basque is because it's the strongest example of a non indo Eruopean language to have survived Celtic and Latin influences.
It's a starting point. We look for relationships between Basque and any evidence we have for other pre celtic languages and if we don't find any connection then start again. It's better than starting from a blank page.
Suggesting that a language that has survived such strong influences over thousands of years was restricted to one area is rather naive. If we take Welsh as an example it would be impossible to say that is not a direct descendant of celtic. It has been compressed and cornered off into Wales but has survived. If we didn't know better we might say that the family of languages that welsh came from was not influential and widespread. Using that logic it is easy to surmise that basque type languages were widespread and influential. That is from where I have drawn my conlusion. -
Message 9
Posted by henvell (U1781664) on Wednesday, 16th June 2010
Genetic studies have revealed that the Picts evolved from the native population of Scotland.The Romans gave them the name "Picts".
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Message 10
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Wednesday, 16th June 2010
Hi mckay1402
Thanks for giving a little more information. Since there is scientific evidence that the 'Amesbury archer' moved to south-west Britain from central Europe I would certainly not say that what you plan is impossible. I'm quite certain that there was cross Channel traffic at this period (and earlier for that matter) and your hero could walk the rest of the way!
I think there are several difficulties you need to overcome, particularly if you want to retain archaeological credibility. As Henvell says the name 'Pict' is Roman, and the society it describes is Iron Age and fairly late Iron Age at that. People lived in northern Scotland in the Bronze Age of course (and earlier), although I believe the actual evidence for bronze working is small.
Don't get hung up on whether Pictish (or 'proto-Pictish') was Indo-European or non-IE. As Stoggler says, inconvenient or not, we are never likely to be sure, but it was certainly a different language from those of near neighbours. Either way you still have a language problem which is: how are you going to get your hero to talk to other BA societies since they will not share a language? Perhaps a sea voyage of exploration or trade from Minoan Crete or Mycenaean Greece which discovers Bronze Age societies, including those in north Scotland, sounds more plausible. You could then solve your language problem by having crew members talk to each other and describe what they see.
Have you thought of a motivation for the trip? Curious Greeks might come trading or seeking knowledge. What would tempt a northern Briton to walk to Asia Minor? Archaeologists tend to fall back on 'religion and ritual' when they have no other explanation!
Best wishes,
TP -
Message 11
Posted by Mckay1402 (U5278290) on Wednesday, 16th June 2010
TP
Thank you for that. Much appreciated comments. When I refer to picts I merely mean the society that was in scotland which wasn't celtic. I realise that The Picts as we know them are a much later society but I suspect they were a later incarnation of an earlier society.
Anyway, the details of the story are boy meets girl, boys entire village is slaughtered by raiders who take all the women and girls as slaves. Guess where they were from...that's right the other side of the world...
I intend to solve some communication problems by introducing an experienced mentor character who has travelled and encountered various societies etc...not all that plausible maybe but it's fantasy.
I have no intention of sticking entirley to known archeology but also have no intention of making things up completely. I hate it when writers do that so I'm trying to be as authentic as possible without becoming bogged down...
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