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Was Dal Riata Irish?

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Tuesday, 6th April 2010

  This comes as a result of reading the Roman -Ireland-Wales discussion. I know virtually nothing about the main thrust of the discussion apart from a few scraps such as the tradition of Irish immigration in North Wales exemplified by "Cytiau'r Gwyddelod", the local name for an Iron Age hut group near Holyhead on Anglesey but I noticed that Nordman seems to accept the mainstream account of the settlement of Argyll and the islands from Ulster.
  I'd like to hear (see) people's opinions of this paper
  
  I find it pretty convincing but I'm more than willing to be dissuaded by those whose knowledge is more in depth than mine. I know that it caused quite a furore when it was published and is still contentious for a variety of reasons, not all of which appear to be purely academic.
  
  regards
  
  ferval

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 8th April 2010

  The author of the article you link to makes a convincing case for the fact that no mass migration occurred from Ireland to Scotland at the time of the Dal Riada expansion. This is actually not something most mainstream historians would quibble with either - the model of political expansion in fact has some parallels with that of Saxon expansion in England, in that archaeology does not support a mass movement of people in a relatively short time, yet incontrovertibly produces evidence of a fundamental and rapid cultural reorientation.
  
  A more sanguine interpretation of what happened would, I feel, have to include the very real probability that at least the coastal areas of both land masses at this particular spot where they are within view of each other encouraged high mobility in both directions, the prevailing direction following that of political expansion, be it primarily aggressive or facilitated by cultural dominance at any given time. In that scenario the Dal Riada expansion - traditionally associated in origin with one dynasty's inability to expand in any other direction in Ireland - simply took advantage of a situation which had already long prevailed, and may even have resulted in similar expansion in the opposite direction beforehand if the philological hints are dependable enough to theorise from.
  
  What marked it out as different was that it coincidentally occurred at a moment in time when such expansion could be quickly consolidated.
  
  The Goidelic/Brittonic linguistic "split" referenced in the article is something which itself has proved unreliable in the past as something on which political division, or the boundary between political entities, can be retrospectively based, except in a very general sense. One is left still with the quandary of being unable to measure the cultural overlap which seems to have been a constant in any case, and therefore the relevance of that overlap in a political sense. There never seems to have been a "faultline" (as described in the article) which does not leave itself open to be contradicted archaeologically, or at least reveal upon examination so many exceptions as to make one wonder should the "rule" exist at all.

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• Message 3

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  Posted by Wally (U14414065) on Thursday, 8th April 2010

  The terms Irish or Scottish probably meant nothing to the people of Dal Riada. Given the difference in terrain between the sixth century and now their preferred mode of transport would have been by water, and as such their view of geographical connections would be completely alien to ours.

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• Message 4

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  Posted by Mr Pedant (U2464726) on Thursday, 8th April 2010

  Lots of interesting speculation about overlaps between various communities.
  
  I've always found the existance of Lough place names in Northumberland very perplexing.

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• Message 5

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  Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Thursday, 8th April 2010

  ÁedÑn mac GabrÑin
  
  
  
  The Political Range of ÁedÑn mac GabrÑin, King of DÑl Riata (pdf)
  
  

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