Ancient and Archaeology聽 permalink
Trade in Cornish Tin?
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Message 1.聽
Posted by Wyldeboar (U11225571) on Friday, 27th November 2009
On the back of the new film expanding the theory that Joseph of Arimithea and his nephew Jesus visited Britain when Joseph came to trade Cornish tin, can anyone throw any light on whether or not there is evidence of such trade between Kernow and Palestine??
If so, what form would it take? Would traders go straight to source, or is it more likely it was traded on in stages by several dealers in a 'chain'??? -
Message 2
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Friday, 27th November 2009
Hi Wyldeboar,
Assuming that we are talking about AD 20-30 a direct trade in tin between 'The Tin Isles' and 'The Holy Land' seems extremely unlikely. Judea was then a Roman province. The Roman invasion of Britain was still about 25 years away but Roman Gaul had been established for two generations, and there is good evidence for Roman influence and trade with Britain in the form of wine amphora and high status goods. Tin was certainly a rare and valuable mineral but I think that we can be fairly certain that if trade with the Tin Isles was contemplated then Roman merchants would be involved.
Could Joseph of Arimathea have been one of those Roman merchants? I don't know of a contemporary Jewish blue water sailing tradition, and in Britain he would be very far from home indeed. The natural route for tin would be across the Channel in exchange for wine, along the Gallic river system, and then accessing the Mediterranean at Marseilles (an important port in the Roman period). Contact between Southern Gaul and the Holy Land is slightly more probable. The emperor Caligula exiled King Herod Antipas to Gaul a few years after the time we are talking about.
Although Christians may have technically have visited the Province of Britain during the the early Empire it would probably be incorrect to call Britain a Christian country until the very end of the Roman period, if then. The archaeological evidence of Christianity in the late Roman period, whilst not absent, is quite slight.
To say that there is no evidence that disproves the theory of Joseph's visit is very far from saying that there is positive evidence in its favour. In fact there is no evidence of Joseph's very existence outside the Gospels. To the best of my knowledge the story of Joseph of Arimathea in Britain is no older than the Grail Legend and the Arthurian Cycle. To me it has medieval 'pious myth' stamped all over it. The idea that Jesus learned his wisdom from British Druids (a theory I heard expressed on the Radio this week) is in the highest degree improbable, if not actually barking.
TP -
Message 3
Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Friday, 18th December 2009
the legend of Joseph and Jesus visting Britain is the origin behind Blake's Jerusalem. The dark Satanic Mills are the Cornish tin mines. The town Marazion in Cornwall is claimed to be the oldest town in England and have an alternative name of 'market Jew' originating from this legendary tin trade. Another legend concerning Joseph was that in 61AD he was sent by the apostle Philip to preach the gospel in Glasonbury and took the holy grail with him. If he was the uncle of Jesus, as also claimed in legend, then he must have been getting on by 61AD.
I can see nothing in the gospels to suggest that Jospeh was other than prominent and wealthy.
By the way excellent post TP. -
Message 4
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Monday, 21st December 2009
I may be wrong, but I am fairly sure that a Time Team programme found som eevidence of long-distance trade, with goods from the Mediterrainean being foundin Cornwall. However, I would agree with TP that visitors from Judea are unlikely. The goods may have changed hands several times before eventually ending up in Britain as part of an exchange for tin.
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Message 5
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Monday, 21st December 2009
Hi TonyG,
You're absolutely right, but the long-distance trade was in in the post-Imperial 5-6th century AD. It is an amazing fact but pottery evidence of Mediterranean trade extends right up the west coast of England, Wales & Scotland (and east coast of Ireland) as far as Skye. In all these regions, except Cornwall, tin could not have been the export.
There was pre-Roman Iron Age trade as well, Hengistbury Head was clearly a port of entry for wine, glass and other materials. Roman period traders in Britain who came from the East are attested, but there is no positive evidence to support this charming medieval tale.
TP -
Message 6
Posted by henvell (U1781664) on Monday, 21st December 2009
The Phoenicans in southern Spain obtained tin from Cornwall.Whether this was by direct contact or by down the line exchange is a moot point.
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Message 7
Posted by MendipTim (U13707598) on Monday, 28th December 2009
I think we should be far more open-minded about inter-regional trade in the thousands of years before the Roman era.
Evidence of long distance trade can be be found in ancient tombs all around the world, These are normally small stones, pottery, or metal that could easily be transported bt any means. Nearly all the great early civilisations made extensive use of boats - Greece, Egypt, Polynesia, Indus Valley etc. When actual specimens of their boats are dug out of the mud they usually prove to be very well constructed & capable of riding out rough storms. In fact wooden boat building design & technique hasn't changed much over 5000 years.
If a boat is sea-worthy & able to safely ride out storms a sailor is safest in open water; in many ways it would be easier to sail in the North Atlantic than between the islands in the Aegean. The European Atlantic coast is remarkably clean of rocky outcrops. Only the Isles Of Scilly & Ushant (NW France) have to be avoided, so if the weather turns bad you could safely head West & then edge back East when things got better. The prevailing wind is near the beam in both directions so the sailing would be quick & easy.
The SW English coast is relatively clean & has many natural protected harbours. By contrast the North French coast would be a nightmare for sailing, prone to thick fog, fierce tides, miles of submerged rocks & sandbanks with very few natural harbours.
Trading by boat would be easy to finance: all you need is a boat, a crew, some food & something to trade. It would be very much "Do or Die" either the mission would succeed or it would be a total failure. A pre-planned round trip from the Med. to England might be completed in a month.
Trading by land would be far more difficult to organise & face many more risks. Additional different types of transport would be needed & the goods transferred from each. The progress would be slow & run the risk of attack & theft. Everyone on the route would want their tithe/tax/cut. A round journey with a heavy cargo in each direction would probably take at least 6 months.
If those feet did come to Cornwall for Tin & then on to Glastonbury it was probably be for Mendip lead which was being widely traded around the Mediterranean before the Romans came. Large quantities of Lead would be much easier to move by boat. It may even have been beneficial to carry a quantity of Lead as low as possible along the central length of the boat & then other cargo above to give you stability which gives you more speed.
Tin & Lead are key ingredients of Pewter; & Egypt has Pewter-ware made 3,500yrs ago. I doubt anyone knows where their ingredients came from; but the fact that Britain had both materials being mined fairly close to each other might be significant. Pewter was the high-grade plastic of the time: it would have been a high demand material & Pewter merchants would be rich people who could easily finance & carry the risks of trading by sea with Britain.
Apparently a by-product of Mendip Lead smelting was a very low grade Silver that the Romans desired as much as the Lead for making low value coins especially when mixed with Tin. Trade in this Silver seems to have been going on well before the Roman invasion.
To understand the probable affluence & power of the Bronze Age Mendip Lead miners is to look at their vast number of originally richly treasured burial mounds that surround the Lead mines. Most of the recorded treasure does not appear to be British in origin & could indicate extensive foreign trade even in those ancient times. A Gold Sun-disc may prove a direct link with Egypt.
An interesting side question is then thrown up: Who was doing the trading? Was it British merchants in British ships that were taking the goods to wherever they could find a market? Or was it foreign traders coming to Britain to trade?
Happy New Year to you all. -
Message 8
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Tuesday, 29th December 2009
Hi MendipTim,
Do you not agree that there is a huge distinction between acknowledging the existence of trade voyages in principle, and a single specific voyage or trader for which there is no acceptable evidence?
I don't think anyone denies that during pre-history the seas were seen as thoroughfares, not barriers. As you say outside ordered communities sea voyages might well be safer than land journeys. Many ancient boats survive and in any case a number of items offer evidence of inter-regional trade. For example none of the agricultural crops or animals are native to Britain; all must have arrived by boat at the beginning of the Neolithic.
The type of exploratory trade you describe is one model although different patterns would have been adopted for bulk goods and prestige items. Behaviour which today would be explained purely in terms of economy and trade would in the past be the result of a complex interaction of different factors, including ritual, symbolism, ethnic identity and status.
As you know tin is a rare metal, but a vital component of bronze. As one of ancient Europe's few sources I think it is highly likely that alluvial Cornish tin was prized and traded from early times, although there are also sources in Brittany and Spain.
The use of lead was widespread in Roman urban centres, although far older lead objects are known. Silver extraction must I think have been the most important economic use for Mendip lead ores in late pre-Roman Iron Age times. I don't have any problem with lead ingots being traded around the Mediterranean, but I like to know what evidence you have that it was Mendip lead. You may recall that I have this distressing enthusiasm for evidence! Evidence for Roman trade in lead is easy since they stamped their ingots with the producers names eg EX ARG VEB. I have a similar difficulty with your enthusiasm for pewter. Doubtless very old examples of tin-lead alloys exists but surely, in a British context, the enthusiasm for pewter was a Roman, and then a medieval, phenomenon.
Dating any mine back to the Bronze Age is difficult, particularly if the oldest workings have been subsumed in later extractions. I don't know Mendip sites at all, so if you could give me a few names and the evidence for Bronze Age activity I should be very grateful.
Best wishes,
TP -
Message 9
Posted by MendipTim (U13707598) on Wednesday, 30th December 2009
Vive La Difference!
Hi TP & apologies to Wyldeboar for deviating away from Cornish Tin.
How much evidence is there of any specific trader in Britain prior to the Roman Occupation? So are we to assume that no trade took place? Everybody made everything they needed themselves?
There are very few facts about ancient Britain & the ones we have are extremely unreliable as they have been subject to self-glorification/ religious/ political influence ever since the event. The generalised view is that pre-Roman Britain was full of warmongering tribes who had only recently left their caves.
The Romans weren't going to sent 1,000s of soldiers across a continent & then a Sea to conquer a bunch of cavemen without any guarantee of some return. There had to be an important strategic reason that more than equated all the resources & effort spent setting up & maintaining a base here. Britain would not have had much geographical advantage for Rome so its mineral wealth is the most likely reason. They had to know the ores existed & were capable of export before they arrived. They also needed to know that the natives were civilised enough to accept & adapt to Roman ways without having to fight for every mile of land. The Picts & Scots must have been deemed uncontrollable or it was too difficult to extract & export any ores in the harsher northern climate.
There was a very interesting study done fairly recently into the ancient roads of Mendip. It showed how the Romans altered the pre-existing & already quite straight roads of the Area. They straightened the road & took it close to the garrison (complete with Amphitheatre) they build at the Lead mines: however they also made it steeper in some places & it crossed slightly boggier spots at others. Slowly after the Romans left up to modern times the road has reverted back to follow the original route more. I've no idea what the quality of the original road was without taking a pick-axe into some farmer's field, but having seen disused sections of both roads they look as if they were capable of handling heavy loads for most of the year. My inference from this study is that the British before & after the Romans wanted the straightest route that had the slightest inclines & soundest ground for their heavy loads whilst the Romans were more interested in speed & had the capacity to call up additional man/ animal power to solve any terrain problems. All these roads head south towards the Dorset coast, or east towards Salisbury & not north to the much closer Bristol Channel coast; presumably because the undrained North Somerset levels were far too boggy to transport heavy loads & no protected landing spots for deep hulled vessels.
A concise summary of Mendip Lead & the Romans can be found in the "Archaeology Of Somerset" by M. Aston & I. Burrows (1982):
"Mendip Lead was mined partly for its silver content, up to 0.4%. Although there was some Lead mining in the pre-Roman period, large-scale extraction began after the Conquest, the earliest Roman ingots being dated to AD49. The mines were initially under military control for early lead pigs bear the stamp of the Second Legion."
Whilst the Lead mines have been extensively overworked through out the generations it is still very easy to spot the different styles of mining. The pre-Romans used open cast seam mining leaving cliffs (Rakes) between the seams, whilst the Romans & followers used a more gobble it all method, & later generations did deep shaft mining. By the area of Rakes that remain I would guess that that at least 5% of the near surface Lead had been mined before the Romans came.
Tin has also been mined on Mendip on a very small scale & some of the mines have been very close to the Lead mines, but as far as I know it was not mined in Roman or previous times. However your mention of Brittany & Spain has got me wondering: The Long Barrows along the West coast of Britain including Mendip are of an Iberian/ Breton style whilst from Stonehenge eastward they are Germanic in style. Could this be a very early indicator of an Atlantic seaboard mineral trade? (Sorry TP; I just wanted to check your heart-rate!)
Mendip's human history goes back to Mesolithic remains in Aveline's Hole. The Neolithic left us Stanton Drew stone circles, the Priddy Circles, Gorsey Bigbury Henge & a few smaller henges. The Early Bronze age is represented by a scattering of about 20 confirmed Long Barrows & then the later Bronze age really polluted the landscape with over 300 Round or Bell Barrows; they are everywhere, well almost, & some like Priddy Nine Barrows are laid out in interesting patterns. A fact especially for you TP: All the confirmed Round Barrows on Mendip are above the 200 metre mark & yet only tiny bits of the Hills are above this height. Important hill-tops that look outstanding candidates for Barrows are bare whilst the tiniest hump that goes up to 200 meters will have a Barrow on it. (This I believe is a World Premier for this fact, & yes I have checked each one & visited about 95% of them. The list of confirmed sites was taken from "Somerset Barrows - Part II: North & East" by L.V. Grinsell (1971)).
Items from all over Europe have been found in these Barrows: Pins from Central Europe, Fa茂ence & other beads from the Eastern Med., Amber & carvings from Sweden, cups from France & the Gold plated Bronze "Sun-Disc" of unknown origin (source: Grinsell). Unfortunately A Rev. Skinner in Victorian times paid local Coal miners to dig out most of the Barrows, he kept appalling records & gave most of his finds away to lady friends.
The reason why I suggest that the early traders may have been British (or Breton or Basque) is because there is no evidence of the trade. If they traded with us they'd have known who we were & where we live. They would have given us a name that we could probably have recognised. But if a bunch of foreigners kept turning up with a boat load of ore to trade they would not know who we were - maybe the Mevigissians, or Lymewegians from up around the corner somewhere. So if records exist we wouldn't know who they were referring to. I know you will hate the idea that no evidence is being used as evidence, but sometimes we can learn a lot by understanding exactly what we don't know (Higgs Boson & CERN spring to mind).
TP, if you don't know Mendip may I recommend that you spent a short break in the Area. Stay in the beautiful tiny city of Wells & tour the area - its history will be seen wherever you go, & is free. However Cornwall is also lovely except in July & August and their economy probably needs your money more than Somerset: maybe they should start sailing boat loads of Pasties out to the Brits sitting on the beaches of southern Spain!
At least you got a couple of facts this time & one is a World Premier! Best wishes. -
Message 10
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Wednesday, 30th December 2009
Hi Mendip Tim
Don't be too apologetic to Wyldeboar who hasn't returned to the thread (s)he started in the last month. I would love a stay in Wells whose amazing cathedral is now top of my unvisited cathedrals list having 'bagged' St David's, and St Magnus, Orkney in the last two years.
How much evidence is there of any specific trader in Britain prior to the Roman Occupation? So are we to assume that no trade took place? Everybody made everything they needed themselves? 聽
I think that you missed my point here. Of course 'trade' occurred on a massive scale in pre-history, and in the Roman period. My point was that Joseph of Arimathea is a figure of faith, not of history. There is no evidence whatever, within the gospels or elsewhere, that he was a merchant, or was related to Jesus, or ever visited Britain. Actually we do know the names of some Roman traders from their memorials, but no J of A. It is not worth expending further effort on him. Trade, in general, is certainly a worthwhile field of study.
The generalised view is that pre-Roman Britain was full of warmongering tribes who had only recently left their caves.聽
With the greatest of respect that is nonsense on stilts. There may, I suppose, be some benighted corners of the world where the occasional ill-informed gibberer still holds such a view, but no one who does ever posts on these boards. I myself spent 4 happy years studying the British pre-Roman Iron Age, and others frequently describe the magnificent achievements of the Neolithic and Bronze Age inhabitants of both Britain and Ireland.
The Romans weren't going to sent 1,000s of soldiers across a continent & then a Sea to conquer a bunch of cavemen. 聽
The reasons for the Roman conquest of Britain are many and various. They deserve, and have in fact recently featured in, a thread of their own. I think the principle reason was the propaganda effect Claudius knew it would have in Rome itself. The seizure of the accumulated precious metal resources of the hostile tribes probably rated highly, as did the provision of an extended market for Roman goods and services. The exploitation of cattle, wheat and iron were, I imagine, mainly of local importance, but tin and woollen cloth would have been of regional significance. Gold and silver resources would potentially have been of Empire-wide significance since the Roman economic cycle fundamentally depended on bullion. Mineral resource exploitation was the responsibility of various military units in the early years after the invasion; famously Wealden iron was allotted to the Classis Britannica.
I think that your interpretation of the philosophy behind Roman roads is entirely correct. Their principle function, which underlay their design, was to move troops and information in the shortest possible time. Any other consideration (eg civilian use, transport of goods) however valuable was secondary. I think there is good evidence that bulk goods were moved by water whenever possible.
Although there was some Lead mining in the pre-Roman period, large-scale extraction began after the Conquest, the earliest Roman ingots being dated to AD49.聽
I'm afraid that the book title you give (for which many thanks) is not available in my University or Public library catalogues. I won't give up. The quotation I have highlighted is the sort of thing one often reads however in books devoted to ancient mining. A claim of pre-Roman activity, unsupported by any evidence, followed by a rapid move to the Roman period which is far better attested. However anything which has Mick Aston's name on it can't be ignored.
it is still very easy to spot the different styles of mining.聽
Well, you're the Mendip expert not me, but can it really be as easy as that? I hadn't heard the term 'rake' before but the principle of following a shallow seam with surface pits that collapse into one another is familiar from my walks in the Yorkshire Dales. Here it is generally regarded as early post-Medieval. However I have come across one interesting account of very early Roman or late pre-Roman Iron Age lead extraction in the Mendips:
However this is a long way, I would submit, from proving that Mendip lead was circulating in the Mediterranean.
Sorry TP; I just wanted to check your heart-rate! 聽
No hint of a tachycardia. Actually I have no problem with a west Atlantic route from northern Spain via Brittany to Cornwall and then between Ireland and Wales to Atlantic Scotland. It probably functioned from the Mesolithic onwards. You sum up my irritating enthusiasm for evidence very exactly. Perhaps it might be best to defer using the Higg's Boson as a stick to berate me with until it is actually discovered!
Best wishes,
TP -
Message 11
Posted by Wyldeboar (U11225571) on Saturday, 2nd January 2010
TP, Mendip et al, whilst not psoting ( if you've nothing constructive to say, say nothing
)I have revisited frequently and watched as the intell grew. Thanks for expanding my horizons, and I look forward to spectating on your knowledgeable exchange over the coming weeks. Happy New Year to you all 
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Message 12
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Saturday, 2nd January 2010
Hi Wyldeboar,
Many thanks for your post. It's really nice to know that the original poster is still visiting the thread and enjoying the contributions.
Best wishes,
TP -
Message 13
Posted by MendipTim (U13707598) on Saturday, 23rd January 2010
Sorry for the delay, I wrote most of this just after the New Year; then I got distracted & failed to post it. Many apologies.
TP, apologies for the sweeping generalisations & exaggerations. I know I shouldn't really put them in, but they can fire up a debate & encourage a response. The points I was trying to make were that we don't know the name of W.H. Smith's pre-Roman guru; & how damaging cartoon history can be to true history.
I'll quickly get another sweeping exaggeration out of the way & say that the propaganda effect of the Roman Conquest of Britain would be on a par with modern America conquering New Zealand. Any boost in the ratings would only be short-term & not for 300yrs. Food & low value products wouldn't have been much use due to time & distance problems: also any benefit from them would have to be offset by the costs of re-supplying the troops with produce unavailable in Britain. Surely they could have simply traded with Britain for the few things they needed (& we would have needed a lot of what they had to offer) rather than incur the massive costs of Conquest & Occupation. The only serious reason must have been for Total control over the production & distribution of very high value minerals; just like today with Oil.
Rome must have been fearful either Of Britain in her own right or some other potential rival taking full control in a way that would be detrimental to Rome's future. That implies (sorry no facts) that Rome had spotted either increasing trade between Britain & non-Roman areas or that Britain was starting to get organised & using its mineral wealth to grow. Once Britain had the technology of how to work the metal who knows what we would have produced, maybe the Industrial Revolution would have been 1,000 years earlier! By separating the processing away from the production Rome was able to control Britain's growth.
Thank you for the link, I was pretty chuffed as my ignorant reading of the land seemed to fairly well supported by the evidence. What the Report doesn't really make clear is by judging the terrain there was possibly some Rakes (& probably the most productive) that got subsumed into the more general Roman working area. The Author was worried about the supply of Water as the surface of Mendip is so dry, however water is never far away. Just North of the Fortlet is Black Down, a vast peaty sponge on top of Limestone & there are at least 4 small streams that constantly trickle water South into the Charterhouse valley. Also there are immense water storing caverns in the Limestone rock in and around the valley. In fact the whole of Charterhouse valley is still owned & used by Bristol Waterworks.
I must try to find out why St.George-Gray believed the Amphitheatre to be far older in origin. It has always seemed a bit of an oddity; with so many large natural amphitheatres being made by the mining why they bothered to build such a bad quality one elsewhere. It has always struck me as being more closely related to Gorsey Bigbury Henge 2Km to the West & other Neolithic earthworks in the area.
Whilst nothing proves Mendip Lead circulated the Med. in pre-Roman times, Mediterranean goods appearing in & around the mines would suggest it. Greek coins, 90yr pre-invasion Roman coins, Egyptian Fa茂ence. An interesting side issue - is Somerset's name an Egyptian pun in origin? The original Somer people came from the marshland of S.Iraq & the name means the water-land: this same description would more than adequately describe ancient Somerset.
I chose that passage to quote just because it was concise & seemed to answer several of your questions at once. In truth the book is only average, but useful; it tries to cover far too much. It is a Somerset County Council publication & can be found in all their libraries & museums. You may be able to track down the Grinsall report on the local Barrows in the Proceedings of the Somersetshire Archaeological & Natural History Society - Vol.115 (1971) its a wonderful piece of dedicated work & a piece of history in its own right.
Please do not call me an expert; the last education I had in ancient history was when I was 10 (& that is Ancient History!). I love the hills I live in & the people who have shaped them. In a way they are a bit like Pompeii, the area was heavily industrialised around Roman times & then abandoned & left to the sheep; so now they appear as a typical range of hills with huge scars from modern quarrying & a few small scars & lots of small mounds that don't initially attract much attention. Very little has changed in the landscape in modern times with the exceptions of enclosures & the introduction of livestock drive routes (droves). Thus simple finds like a step cut into a rock face on an old path between 2 no-wheres is more likely to be Roman or pre-Roman than recent. Paths are also interesting in their own right; a path made through an area of Gorse & Bracken (& Peat on the Levels) will likely remain for many millennia. It is not hard to show that most of the paths on Mendip originally ran between pre-Roman sites.
If you are into Cathedrals you'd better stay a week! Wells Cathedral - the Taj Mahal of Somerset! Equally beautiful & equally insane. What drove its founders to build it jammed between steep hills & an inland sea/ bog so that its almost impossible to see from a distance, in an area that was sparsely populated? Something local must have been generating a lot of money. As Wells was the nearest Market Town to the Lead-bearing areas of Mendip it seems reasonable to suggest that Lead & Silver paid for the Cathedral. But why? why? why? Glastonbury already had its huge Monastery 5 miles away across the bog. If it wanted to compete Why not built it French-style on top of the small hill behind & have its glory radiating out for miles around? Maybe, just maybe we come back to JC & JoA.
Wyldeboar, thanks for your interest & many apologies again for hijacking your thread & deviating it away from Cornish Tin. Like you say I have not enough knowledge to comment on Cornwall, so I keep quiet on that subject: but that is not to say I'm not interested. Any information on the early tin trade would much appreciated. Also the Clay trade; when did it start? etc. -
Message 14
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Sunday, 24th January 2010
Hi Tim,
If you are prepare to confess to 'sweeping generalisations' I will admit to occasional failures of imagination, and an irritating obsession with evidence. But sadly I have to stick with what I know, and so I predict you will find the rest of this post a great disappointment. Sorry. You clearly think of Britain as an important but isolated province, I think that a Roman would have seen it integrated into a north-west group of provinces including northern Gaul and Lower Germany.
Well, we can certainly agree that the motives that led to the Roman conquest of Britain were not, at all, the same as those that were in operation in the subsequent centuries. But, I think, you have probably made some errors here. Clearly the whole Empire depended on the existence of the professional Roman army. To feed and supply 200-300,000 men was a huge task, and this must be allowed for when you are trying to understand the Roman economy. I don't think you can safely assume that 'food and low value products' were of little value. The army must have required huge amounts of wheat, meat, and leather. As well as supplying the army in Britain there is nothing intrinsically impossible about the export of these products by sea to the other north-west provinces in exchange for the known trade in wine and oil coming in the opposite direction. Indeed we know from historical sources that the future emperor Julian fed his army in Germany in exactly this way. The oil and wine trade leaves 'markers' in the form of amphorae fragments. The trade in wheat and beef is more difficult to trace.
Correspondingly I think you have exaggerated the importance of British metals; they were not the equivalent in importance to modern oil. There is certainly good evidence that the exploitation of minerals in Roman Britain occurred early, and was the responsibility of the legions and other military units as you say. This may partly reflect the value of these resources sure enough, but of equal importance was that the legions had the specialists who could locate and exploit minerals, and the capacity to build service roads and arrange security for the mining operations. In the case of silver the metal produced was certainly of great economic value to central government, and I think your view of this aspect of Roman economic life is distorted by the high silver content of Mendip lead. As far as lead, iron, and copper were concerned the importance was surely that the British and north-west provincial authorities didn't have to import them for their building projects, rather than there was a major Mediterranean export trade. My understanding is that Mendip lead pigs have been traced to Southampton water, and even to the Somme valley, but no further.
For 400 years there was no potential rival to Rome in the West (the situation is different in the East of course) and the British elite was 'Roman' within two generations. So what really worried the central authorities was a dissident general using the military and economic power of the north-western provinces to threaten Italy. This is exactly what later happened with the Gallic Empire of Postumus, and the rebellion of Carausius. Similarly there was no real possibility of substantial British trade with Europe outside the Empire. This would have meant 'Ireland', 'Scotland' and 'Free Germany'. Roman objects did enter lowland Scotland (presumably in exchange for agricultural products) and huge amounts of Roman material entered Free Germany, but mainly by the overland route from the province of Upper Germany. The ships, roads and other means of transportation were all under Roman control.
Don't feel the need to apologise for the lack of facts supporting your theory; it's sufficient that we agree that there are none! Since the creative and engineering power of the Roman empire never produced an industrial revolution it seem quite quixotic to hypothesise a contemporary native British version. The reasons that an Industrial Revolution developed when it did, and where it did, is a fascinating topic but really needs a thread of its own. An archaeologist, whom I much admire, once told me to avoid glass beads and place name studies since they were both areas where even the well-informed generalist could come to grief. I'm much to fond of ancient glass to entirely concur, but I agree about the place names. It is far too easy to make links on the basis of similarities of pronunciation in modern English. I would like to think that the ancient Egyptians made puns (was Pharaoh Seti named after a living-room couch) but parallels between Sumer and Somerset seem a little extreme. I know there are two theories of origin for the Saxon tribe of the Sumortunsaete but both sound more probable than yours.
I'm sorry that you will not accept the title of 'Mendip expert' bestowed on you. You evidently know and love the landscape which is good enough for me, and the slightly self-deprecating style of your posts is such a welcome change from the outrageous self-promotion seen elsewhere. Sure you will not reconsider?
Kind regards,
TP -
Message 15
Posted by MendipTim (U13707598) on Sunday, 24th January 2010
Thank you TP.
I bow to your greater knowledge, & am but a simple freshman in your company.
How can history be a disappointment? Its a bit like a walk on Mendip: you accidentally take the wrong path & have 3 options. The safest & the least interesting is to retrace your route & find the right path (my twilight option): otherwise you have the 2 adventure options; to continue on the new path & look for another path that seems to head in the right direction (my afternoon option) or just follow the new path & see where it takes you (my all day option). Often the adventure routes prove fruitless & you end up with a very long & boring option 1; however by attempting either options 2 or 3 you have always gained knowledge in defeat or success. It is the one advantage that non-academics like me have over the boffins; we have no fear of being "wrong" so are more willing to try options 2 or 3.
I don't think Britain was important or isolated, rather it was a disparate group of communities that traded with each other & with people throughout Europe. It had the potential to become important if it unified into a more cohesive unit. I am sure the Roman Generals saw it the way you describe, but I doubt the general populace agreed or cared. Unsupported wars were probably just as bad news for politicians then as they are today. So the Generals must have convinced the politicians to convince the people that it was important to invade some silly wilderland beyond the fog of far of Gaul. I can only think of 2 arguments that would persuade the Roman populace, either that Britain had great assets that Rome needed or that the pesky Brits were causing trouble by interfering with Roman long distance sea trade with northern Europe.
Unless Britain was more civilised then than it is now we would have traded anything in return for alcohol! So, why did the Romans go through all the hassles of conquest & occupation when they could have easily traded all their requirements. For the invasion to make any sense it has to be to guarantee the constant supply of 1 or more very important commodities.
On the other hand it could be those pesky Brits. I had an old history teacher who was ex-navy & his constant theme was that British history is the history of the sea; so at least 1 other person would've liked my next point. The best sailors for sailing the waters around the British Isles would have been British. Rocks, Fog, Tides, Sandbanks, & atrocious weather, we have the lot. I have already speculated that pre-invasion trade between Britain & the Med. may have been by British traders as often as by Mediterranean traders, especially as there is virtually no records of Egyptian, Turkish, Greek, or Roman traders going out to trade with Britain. Any nation, however small & disorganised, that started to dominate the sea would be a major threat to Rome.
Me! Exaggerate something? Surely not!! Never in a thousand billion years! Oh! Well! I had better give you a fact as an apology. Further on in Mick Aston's book I found this little snippet:
"Mendip Lead pigs have been recorded at St. Valery & at Lillebonne in France. Analysis has shown that Lead used in Pompeii, overwhelmed AD79, was from the Mendip Lead mines (Elkington 1976)."
If this is true, then maybe I don't have to eat quite so much humble pie, it would be extremely interesting to know if this is pre- or post-invasion Lead; but at least it does prove did reach the Med..
In 400 years I'm sure there would have been many potential rivals to Rome in the West; but Rome was smart enough to use every trick in the book to control & weaken that potential. They handed out sweeties, they used divide & rule, and they used "good cop, bad cop" techniques with their governors.
My remarks about the Industrial Revolution & the Sumer people were just throw-aways for a bit of fun; personally I always like the idea of the Summer county that rises each year out of the bog: but that is equally wrong.
Thank you for the many interesting bits of information you have supplied & for your very kind & generous words. No, there is no going back - I never like option 1.
Best wishes
Tim. -
Message 16
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Monday, 25th January 2010
Hi Tim,
I suppose there's no reason at all why you shouldn't look on imperial Rome as a participatory democracy if it pleases you, but I fear that the reality was quite different; 'bread and circuses', remember. After Augustus no general would have dared extend the empire without imperial sanction whatever the opportunities offered. Perhaps there were some practical considerations that influenced Claudius's invasion plans but they were trivial. What really mattered to Roman elites were how their actions were perceived in the city, all other considerations were secondary. Claudius's father Drusus, brother Germanicus, and uncle Tiberius, were all distinguished generals; that's all the motivation he would have needed.
The British as natural sailors is an engaging idea but can it stand up in the face of the evidence? In the first century the British didn't, couldn't, oppose the Roman invasion at sea. In the 4th century they were helpless in the face of sea launched attacks by the Irish, Picts and Saxons. At Arbeia (South Shields) the Romans has to import Tigris Boatmen for shallow water work. Any more for the Skylark?
It is very encouraging that you are supporting your 'Mendip Lead in the Mediterranean' theory with a reference. But does the reference stand up? As far as I can see the only positive evidence that the lead in Pompeii came from Mendip would be an inscribed ingot or scientific support in the form of lead isotope analysis. This technique was widely applied in the 60s & 70s to provenance a lead source, although recently there has been some reservations raised about the initial results. The word 'analysis' which you quote does suggest this technique.
Anyway the reference in Mick Aston's book is 'Elkington 1976'; so where would this have actually been published? The only possibility seems to be another book not available to me, but possibly known to you, namely a chapter by an HDH Elkington entitled 'The Mendip Lead Industry' which was contained in a book called 'The Roman West Country' published in 1976 and edited by Branigan and Fowler. I get the impression that Dr Elkington was a historian of lead mining, Roman mining law, and lead ingots who did a PhD in Durham in the 1960s and may have used lead isotope analysis at that time. This date is quite important since there is also a 'David Elkington' who has an acoustic vibration theory about ancient monuments but he was born in 1962 so they can't be the same man.
Dr Elkington has published quite extensively on Roman lead mining but in none of the publications I have read does he mention ingots in Pompeii, only those in Britain and Gaul already known to me, nor lead isotope analysis. So it looks like you will have to track down the original book which I guess would be in a local library. But remember I'm not disputing that there was a Roman lead industry in the Mendips, nor that ingots were exported from Britain to Gaul, only that they circulated in the Mediterranean. But, right or wrong, no humble pie is needed; this is simply a collaborative effort to get at the facts.
Best wishes,
TP -
Message 17
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Monday, 25th January 2010
I'll quickly get another sweeping exaggeration out of the way & say that the propaganda effect of the Roman Conquest of Britain would be on a par with modern America conquering New Zealand. Any boost in the ratings would only be short-term & not for 300yrs.聽
Tim, you clearly have more faith in politicians than I. I see no evidence that Romans were particularly noble in this respect, It seems entirely plausible that one might conquor a low value province simply to loot it to bribe an electorate or army. Even if the area had no agricultural or manufactured goods, its people could still be sold as slaves.
After all, when has a modern politician spurned short term benefits based on long term downsides?
-
Message 18
Posted by MendipTim (U13707598) on Tuesday, 26th January 2010
Thanks TP & Cloudy,
I am very rusty on Ancient Rome, especially the timings, so I fully accept your points, except for the propaganda effect which I doubt would last over 300 years. The Propaganda of a quick Rape, Pillage & leave would be the same, save considerable amount of investment & leave the door open for another moral-boosting invasion later.
If British history is/isn't the history of the Sea, Naval history definitely is. The sea decides the outcome in most battles. It doesn't matter how good or big a naval force is if the sea conditions are against you. Wind, tide & currents play a far more important role in strategy than size & armaments. (Drake played Bowls because the tide was out & the NNW wind would keep the Spanish away from British shores & allow him to catch them up later with devastating effects). David has often beaten Goliath at sea. I would need to know the shipping forecast & tide states for each occasion you mention before I could accept your point. The southern North Sea is surrounded by shallow waters, so to suggest that the Romans had to import Tigris boatmen because there was no-one local capable of doing the job is ridiculous, there has to be another reason. Maybe all the British sailors were already busy sailing boats for the Roman Navy.
I stumbled upon the reference to Pompeii whilst trying to find a dimly remembered reference to a Mendip Lead pig being found in the harbour at Ostia, or another Roman harbour. I should have included the "Bibliography" reference to it (I decided not to in order to save the readers!). Here it is:
"Elkington, H.D.H., 1976. "The Mendip Lead Industry", in (eds.) Branigan & Fowler 1976, 183-199, 230-234."
Unfortunately I am immobilised at present due to a neck injury & am unable to do any research into this or St.George-Gray. A day in Bristol's main library could be fun soon. Do you know if Pompeii was a comparatively "New" city or "Old" before it was destroyed as this might give a slight indication of when the Lead might of arrived: Lead roof on old building = maybe pre-invasion; Drain-pipe on new building = maybe post-invasion.
Thank you for all your comments - I will save a bit of that pie as I'm sure I will need it again.
Best wishes.
Tim. -
Message 19
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Tuesday, 26th January 2010
Hi Tim
Very sorry to here about the neck; sounds very painful. I hope you are soon restored to full working order.
Since you are suffering I'll forgive you for calling my ideas about the 'numerus barcariorum Tigrisiensium Arbeia' ridiculous. I think that message board conventions dictate that ideas can only be so described when they are demonstrably and provably in a flagrant state of error; not simply when there 'has to be' another explanation.
Pompeii was at least 600 years old when it was destroyed. It had led quite an interesting life being at various times occupied by the Oscans and the Samnites, and then besieged by Sulla. In AD 62 it had experienced a severe earthquake. That would have destroyed a great many roofs and water pipes so I could imagine that a large shipment of British lead would have been most welcome. Which is not at all the same thing as saying one actually arrived!
Best wishes,
TP -
Message 20
Posted by MendipTim (U13707598) on Tuesday, 26th January 2010
TP,
Many apologies for breaking this forum's conventions. It was totally the wrong word to use in almost any context, but especially wrong to use against someone who has infinitely more knowledge than I & has devoted many hours to helping others understand history; correcting their exuberant mistakes with calmness & dignity.
Let me correct myself and say that I find the idea of a lack of shallow water sailors is strange (OK?) considering the vast areas of Britain & lowland N. Europe where such conditions existed. I know the Somerset levels drainage schemes didn't start until the end of the 1st century & that was on a very small scale. Presumably the Fens would have had a similar history. (or am I getting into deep water by being too shallow?!)
Thanks for the potted history of Pompeii, it really did have a tough & eventful history. I went there when I was 13 & the only thing that impressed me was the fossilised loaves of bread! Presumably, as the Earthquake was after the invasion of Britain it would have been Roman produced Lead & therefore the possibility of it being a special one-off consignment for the re-construction of Pompeii.
Sorry for continuing to be a pain in the neck; but you know what they say about a problem shared.
Best wishes
Tim. -
Message 21
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Tuesday, 26th January 2010
Hi Tim,
'Strange' is fine.
It's odd what sticks in your memory. I've never visited Pompeii but in the British Museum they have a plaster dog produced by pouring plaster of Paris into a void discovered on excavation. Apparently as a child I always asked to see it. The ghastly contorted figures of human victims were created in the same way of course.
I don't know a great deal about the early history of the fens. The Romans diverted Ermine Street westward to avoid them but constructed a 25 mile section of road, called the Fen Causeway, running east-west from Peterborough to Denver in Norfolk.
By a truly remarkable coincidence you can see a section of the Fen Causeway cut through at Flag Fen, Frances Pryor's archaeological centre near Peterborough. I took a photograph which shows an agger consisting of a thick horizon of gravel piled on top of a greyish material I can't identify. I wonder how much it cost to build?
The coincidence is remarkable because late Neolithic - Early Bronze Age wooden walkways are also visible at Flag Fen, having been excavated well below the modern land surface. You will be familiar with these walkways from the Somerset levels I am sure. The Sweet track is the best known and, at 5000 years old, was an amazing achievement
Best wishes,
TP -
Message 22
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Wednesday, 27th January 2010
Hi,
Can I add an additional perspective to the discussion of why the Romans felt the need to put boot - or sandal - on all of the British mainland and Orkney. I was at a conference last year and heard a paper by Diarmuid Scully from Cork on Scotland's identity in the ancient world. In it he asserted that Scotland and the Orkneys were viewed as the ultimate ends of the earth and the boundary between this world and that of the Gods and Heroes. Thus for Rome to be the all conquering world power, they had to be annexed.
This paper has not yet been published, it will be,later this year so I'm going from memory and the conference pr茅cis so I can't give chapter and verse, I'm afraid, but it seemed to me to add another dimension to the more functionalist explanations of economic benefit and to why Antoninous Pious etc should be so interested in the forests and bogs of Caledonia.
Regards,
Ferval -
Message 23
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Wednesday, 27th January 2010
Hi Ferval
Thanks for your observations. I'm sure that you are right to point out the risks in interpreting events in the past on a purely functionalist, or environmentally determinist, basis. It does seem highly likely that many events would have had a symbolic or ideological significance as well, although from our modern perspective these can be very hard to penetrate. In the past was have had animated threads discussing exactly these issues as they applied to the construction of Hadrian's Wall.
Your comments are particularly interesting to me as I have always been fascinated by the extensive archaeological evidence there is for marine based contact between the Roman Empire and the Northern Isles or the Atlantic coast of Scotland. Only Orkney features in the historical records (and perhaps Shetland if this represents the 'ultima Thule' of Roman writers). Of the powerful Iron Age culture in this region, responsible for the construction of brochs and wheelhouses, we receive no word. The late historian Eutropius claimed that after his invasion Claudius 鈥榮ubdued Orkney鈥. This seems improbable, but has been reinforced by an early amphora fragment found at Gurness broch. A panegyric on Constantine mentioned 鈥榯he forests and marshes of the Caledonians and other Picts鈥 also 鈥業reland and furthest Thule鈥. Claudian, another late source, improbably described 鈥極rkney crammed with Saxon dead and Thule drenched with the blood of Picts鈥 when illustrating the achievements of the elder Theodosius.
I must admit that I am more comfortable with ancient technology than 'Gods and Heroes' but it does appear that Orkney had some special, if irrecoverable, significance for Roman writers.
TP -
Message 24
Posted by LairigGhru (U14051689) on Monday, 1st February 2010
I noticed that Dr Iain Stewart in his latest series ('How Earth Made Us') remarked that there is evidence that the Minoans traded widely, including obtaining tin from these islands.
-
Message 25
Posted by AlanR (U14322264) on Monday, 1st February 2010
I have only had time to glance at a few of the replies that you have had and it is difficult to be precise because of lack of evidence because the Welsh/Celts/Druids/Silurians/ call them what you wish were highly intelligent and therefore did not require to write down knowledge but passed knowledge down by word of mouth. To belong you had to be able to recite your ancestors for 25 gennerations even with todays ability to write only a few can take their ancestry back 25 generations I am finding it a very hard task.
The story is there were two highly intelligent people c 3000 AD we who built Stonehenge and established a religion based on nature and the Phoenicians who controlled the seas. There was trade between us whereby our main gift was tin and this trade was jealously guarded by them.
It is possible when their Princess Jezebel married the King of the Jews and defended the Jews against the many attacks made on them, did pass the secret on to the Jews and when they were able they also traded with the Tin Islands. The theory being that Joesph of Arithmea and one of his crew Jesus traded on a regular basis and it is the discussions with the Druids that formulated the Christian religion.
As far as is known no Roman ship ever was able to follow them to the tin and even when they conqured Britain there is little evidence that they got to the tin. -
Message 26
Posted by Wyldeboar (U11225571) on Monday, 1st February 2010
Keep it coming Guys, some fascinating theories here............
-
Message 27
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Tuesday, 2nd February 2010
Hi AlanR
I am often considered to show lack of imagination on historical topics. This is a fair criticism, and as a result I find your post very hard to equate with British pre-history as it is presently understood. I should also add that I am the easiest person in the world to play a joke on, so if your post was part of 'let's wind up a historian week', then you've certainly got me!
Anyway, assuming you are serious, may we look at the individual elements of your post to establish whether you can make any, or all, of them more secure with additional evidence?
I don't think we know for certain that the recollections of ancestral histories was of importance to the prehistoric people of Britain but it is a reasonable hypothesis I agree. You seem very positive about the need to remember 25 generations. May I ask what the source for that figure might be? The difficulty with oral family histories is the impossibility of checking their accuracy. As we can see from king lists in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle few can resist the temptation to incorporate heroes and gods in the first generations!
I assume 3000 AD is a slip for 3000 BC? That would be a perfectly reasonable date for the original circular earthwork at Stonehenge. The stone circles which are now so prominent may be up to a millennium later. Neither of these dates really corresponds with the historical Phoenecians who are normally considered to fit into the Mediterranean late Bronze Age, and Iron Age, perhaps 1500 鈥 600 BC; being finally conquered by Cyrus.
I'm certainly no expert on Jezebel and Old Testament history, but if by the early first millennium BC the Phoenecians knew the location of the British 'tin-isles' a Pheonecian princess might have communicated this to King Ahab. But he had only a short time to live and, as I mentioned in an early post, I know of no evidence that there was ever a Jewish blue-water sailing tradition. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?
Joseph of Arimathea must have been born in the last few years BC so if he were a visitor to Britain in search of tin he must have inherited a 500 year old trading tradition, but by this time Europe has been in an Iron Age for centuries and tin, though useful, was no longer a strategic metal. Can you think of any positive evidence, Jewish artefacts in Cornwall for example, to indicate that such voyages took place?
Most scholars now see Jesus' teaching in very much a Jewish tradition without any need to invoke external influences, such as Druids or Indian Buddhists. What are your sources for the beliefs of the Druids by the way?
Your last sentence is a little obscure but honestly I think we can assume that after the conquest the Romans got everywhere within Britain. I'm sure that a Roman altar has been found on Scilly. I could probably track down a reference for it if you would be interested.
TP -
Message 28
Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Wednesday, 3rd February 2010
TP
I would say that I agree with pretty well all that you have written but Ahab was I believe king for around 20 years (869 to 850BC?). He also probably married Jezebel while his father Omri was king. However, I entirely agree about the lack for an Israelite blue water fleet and the house of Omri (for which there is external evidence such as the Moabite stone) was completely wiped out by Jehu in around 843BC and Israel was destroyed as a state by Assyria around 721BC. This was followed by the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks and Romans so it is a bit hard to see the tradition lasting down to Joseph of Arimithia over all this and a period of more than 800 years (I think you mentioned only 500). Also, as I mentioned in an earlier post there is nothing in the gospels to suggest other than Joseph being well off.
Anyway, apart from those minor points entirely agree.
Tim -
Message 29
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Wednesday, 3rd February 2010
"I'm certainly no expert on Jezebel and Old Testament history" 聽
But I know a man who is!
TP -
Message 30
Posted by englishvote (U5473482) on Tuesday, 16th February 2010
Hi all
This news story might be of interest to this thread.
Just how long trade has been operating between Britain and mainland Europe is impossible to assess but it certainly predates the Roman conquest and Celtic cultural migrations. -
Message 31
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Tuesday, 16th February 2010
Hi EV
Many thanks. Interesting that the discoverers believe that the tin was being taken to Britain, rather than exported from Britain. We must await a full report!
Regards,
TP -
Message 32
Posted by AlanR (U14322264) on Monday, 15th March 2010
Dear All
My apologies for winding you up, I appreciate that you are an excellent academic, trained as a Classic Scholar; my problem is that your research is stifled by tradition and the need for academic respect. To put it in another way you do not 鈥榯ilt at windmills鈥 or take the most adventurous path.
As an academic of some standing you must appreciate that in the main references are not worth the paper they are written on, they are merely a repetition of a previous academics view. To prove this once when I had plenty of money to spare I went back to source on a Greek quotation and had a classic Scholar translate it for me, one word was misused which made a significant difference in the meaning. The Greek Scholar looked further and found it was also taken out of context. For me it meant, I won a silly argument on the morality of the women of Athens and also learnt to be careful in accepting references.
I would like to make it clear that my definitions are not academic, they are as follows;
Christians are those who followed Paul and John and was introduced into Britain c50AD.
Roman Catholics are those formed out of Christianity in c300AD in order to carry on worshipping idols and converted the English pagans and forced them on the British Church starting c500AD and completing c900AD.
British (Siluresians et al) who became Roman Citizens until c410AD.
English those pagans who invaded Britain after c410AD and were converted to Catholics.
Phoenicians These like the Greeks were not a country but a set of city states which existed in the late Bronze Age (c1500 BCE) so were built prior to that date. Excavations are still ongoing therefore c.3000BCE is as a good a guess as any other date. Yes as to the state of Phoenicia it was captured, but this misses the point that the Phoenicians were a collection of City States and they still continued trading, I myself would not end the Phoenician people until the period 146BC the fall of Carthage to 62BC when the Romans captured their Eastern Ports. However the ships still traded, ownership and crews may have gradually changed.
Romans these were evil people whose rape and pillage destroyed most of the cultural records of the area, the libraries at Tyre, Carthage, and Alexandria. Even today there are many books in the Vatican Library of which no full English translation exist. They were only afraid of two Religions, Christianity who they persecuted, and the Druids, who they travelled the far width of Britain to massacre them in Anglesey.
Cassiterides (the Tin Islands) these are clearly indicated in Roman texts, what academics are unwilling to recognise is that they are Cornwall, (from what I know the Summerland鈥檚, Devon and Cornwall could be regarded as islands though the water between was not deep)what you get from Roman texts is the confusion caused by a Society who were unaware of the world and thought it was flat.
Jews were not liked by the Romans and from references they were not held in high respect for their seamanship. One however must compare this with the town of Maragion which is situated near Saint Michael Mount the place where the tin was loaded. (Yes there could be alternatives such as Plymouth Sound, but for once I am excepting academic preference). The translation of Maragion is Jews鈥 Market.
Joesph of Arithemea I have taken his floruit to be 10BC-50AD; he was a prominent Jewish gentleman who held a seat on the Sanhedrin, a ship-owner who lived in Ramlah,
in Lydia. This would enable him to be active at the Crucifixion rescue, though it would place his appearance in Ynyswitrin (Glassy Isle) at the age of 73. It must also be remembered that historians are unable to agree on dates, for example the Crucifixion are given from 30 to 36 AD. Another explanation could be that in some of the histories he was confused for his son Josephes.
Ships You must remember that the ships of this time were huge in size, even the Roman Grain boats were 鈥淥ne hundred and eighty feet in length, the ship鈥檚 carpenter told me, the beam more than a quarter of that, forty-four feet from the deck to the bottom...鈥
I know that in these times that there were large caravans and these were used by the Greeks to travel to Northern Europe via the River System but in my opinion they were too slow and too small to handle the tin ingots.
Why was this trade done by the Phoenicians and not by the British, well from my knowledge our ships were not large enough to handle the outward journey but I could be wrong. If true however you could then imagine that Gabriel, the father of John and Jesus was a Druid. I have not read any of the Triads that would sustain this but would really like to know who this mystic dweller of the woods was.
Other theories such as the tin came from Spain was wrong because it lacked quantity, that it came from the East has been disproved my an analysis of the bills of lading where all that could be found was a small amount of exports to the East and no imports of tin.
With the Third Roman Invasion the centre of activities moved away from South Wales and West Wales (The Summerland鈥檚 Devon and Cornwall) towards London. The last tin clipper could possibly be the one escaping from the Romans in Israel circa 30-36AD as you must remember Britain was the only country defying Rome prior to the invasion.
I have attempted to cover all the various points and I trust Wyldeboar you realise that simple questions have a multitude of answers from illiterates like me to the history academics.
AlanR
Sorry if confused but I could not embolden the heads. -
Message 33
Posted by Wyldeboar (U11225571) on Monday, 15th March 2010
Thankyou. Some real food for thought there..........
-
Message 34
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Tuesday, 16th March 2010
Hi AlanR,
Thanks for your stimulating reply but I am now really confused; for one thing your last post is addressed to 'Dear All' but you do seem to be talking to a single individual.
I think it is fine to take an adventurous path (even if that is something I find hard to do myself) but 'history' does require one to stay within the evidence, on what ever path you select. Without this discipline it is fatally easy to slip into speculative fiction.
The main references to 'Dark Age' history are often obscure, and frequently susceptible to many interpretations, but I think 'not worth the paper they are written on' is surely an exaggeration. You point about correct translation is a good one, but one that is not entirely lost on linguists! It would be easier to debate this with you if you would name the sources that trouble you, and the ones that don't for that matter.
I do find several of your definitions troubling I must admit:
Christianity was introduced into Britain c AD50. This is not impossible, but I know of no historical or archaeological evidence to substantiate it. Can you provide some?
The paragraph beginning 'Roman Catholics' I find very hard to understand. You seem to be saying that Catholic Christianity was formed out of the greater body of Christians in the age of Constantine the Great 'in order to carry on worshipping idols'. Can you really mean that? The extent to which the Catholic tradition and the Celtic tradition were responsible for converting pagan 'British', 'Picts' and 'Saxons' is very complex and well worth a thread of its own.
I don't know that the Romans were afraid of any religions exactly, but if you are drawing up a list of religious groups who were persecuted between AD 50 鈥 300 you would have to add Judaism to Druidism and Christianity. Probably all these persecutions were primarily from political, rather than theological, motives.
I'm not sure that I understand your point about the Cassiterides. Surely the 'tin isles' could be Scilly, or Cornwall, of Devon, or any combination. We know where the tin sources were; I think that it is a reasonable presumption that (over a millennium or more) that different regional powers within Britain would have controlled this valuable product, and its trade.
'Maragion' is Marazion I take it. To simply describe this as 'Jew's Market' with no further discussion is disingenuous. I am no expert on place names in this region but 'Small market' is the more common derivation I know. The last element in 'Marghasyow' could as easily be Jove as Jew! What are the grounds for your preference?
If we could know definitely that Joseph of Arimathea was a ship-owner who lived in Ramlah, Lydia this whole question would be made a great deal simpler to answer. What is your source for this information?
I don't want to labour the point but there are several components of your post that are unfamiliar to me. Who was: 'Gabriel, the father of John and Jesus' (do you mean the Biblical archangel, but if you do how is he a druid?). Who is 'the mystic dweller of the woods'? What was the 'Third Roman Invasion' . What is the evidence for the 'last tin clipper' around AD 36. If you or Wyldeboar could explain I should be most grateful.
Ship size. I don't think that this matters one way or the other. Doubtless the Romans had large and small ships, but this question is did Joseph of Arimathea make use of any of them, or rather is there any evidence, other than medieval speculation, that he did?
Best wishes,
TP
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