Ancient and Archaeology permalink
Stonehenge - back to front?
This discussion has been closed.
-
Message 1.Â
Posted by WalterPTwynn (U14230550) on Sunday, 22nd November 2009
Is it possible that the druids who visit Stonehenge at sunrise on midsummer's day have it wrong? Should they be facing the opposite direction and facing sunset on the shortest day?
They would then be saying "goodbye " to the dying sun ready to welcome the new sun the next morning. -
Message 2
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Monday, 23rd November 2009
Not really sure that the actions of modern "druids" has anything to do with history, least of all with the ancient druids of two millenia ago.
-
Message 3
Posted by LairigGhru (U5452625) on Monday, 23rd November 2009
WalterPTwynn,
I suspect that the refutation of your theory will be the physical fact that the setting Sun won't be in alignment with the stones, owing to the 23.5 degree tilt of Earth's axis. -
Message 4
Posted by Shearers Receeding Hairline (U2343735) on Tuesday, 24th November 2009
My thought was that druids had nothing to do with Stonehenge. That their 'appearance' does not coincide with the creation and initial use of Stonehenge.
I was of the impression tht druids were a fairly recent folly? (i.e last 2000 years. -
Message 5
Posted by Petebro (U13904311) on Wednesday, 25th November 2009
I understand there are several theory’s as to the function, or multiple functions of Stonehenge. But I suspect it is always going to be a best guess as to the most likely theory.
My current thinking is more attuned with why would anyone bother to build such a structure like that anywhere in the world. It obviously isn’t a folly, it has purpose, and the purpose because it has astrological ties that must have followed quite a bit of astrological observation and recording. So that is reading and writing, and maths, and construction, and more skills to actually build it. Maybe if we understand how the little skills that came together we might understand the why of it being built? -
Message 6
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Wednesday, 25th November 2009
did anyone see the Time Team programme on Saturday on the results of 6 years digs - superb
st -
Message 7
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Sunday, 29th November 2009
Sun, 29 Nov 2009 14:59 GMT, in reply to Petebro in message 5
Probably some prehistoric Capability Brown came along and said, "What this landscape could really do with is a whacking great stone circle"
Seriously, so far as I am aware the Druids were an Iron Age phenomenon, and probably bore little resemblance to their latter day namesakes. Terry Pratchett has a couple of quotes on druids which, although referring to a groups on a fantasy world, aren't I suspect too far from the truth:
...like druids everywhere they believed in the essential unity of all life, the healing power of plants, the natural rhythm of the seasons and the burning alive of anyone who didn't approach all this in the right frame of mindÂ
and
No self-respecting High Priest is going to go through all the business with the trumpets and the processions and the banners and everything, and then shove his knife into a daffodil and a couple of plums. You've got to face it, all this stuff about golden boughs and the cycles of nature and stuff just boils down to sex and violence, usually at the same time.Â
(Both from 'The Light Fantastic')
I suppose it's possible the original Druids made use of Stonehenge, but my understanding is that, from the little available evidence, they preferred sacred groves to big circles on an open plain. In any case, there is certainly no reason to suppose they actually built it. -
Message 8
Posted by WalterPTwynn (U14230550) on Sunday, 29th November 2009
I did not intend to imply that druids built stonehenge. The point I was trying to make (but obviously made badly) was that in these modern times it is at sunrise at the summer solstice that observers (be they druids, new age, or just curious tourists) meet at the stones.
This is because certain stones line up to point to the rising sun.
In the summer the sun is "high in the sky" and so rises north of due east and sets north of due west, but in the winter the sun is "low in the sky" and rises south of due east and sets south of due west. This means that the stones which "point" to the rising sun on the summer solstice will "point", in the opposite direction, to the setting sun on the winter solstice. If it is assumed that this lining up of the stones is not just a lucky coincidence, did the bulders, whoever they were, intend to celebrate the dying sun in winter, so that the modern observers have it the wrong way round? -
Message 9
Posted by Frank Parker (U7843825) on Sunday, 29th November 2009
In the summer the sun is "high in the sky" and so rises north of due east and sets north of due west, Actually it doesn't. The furthest North the sun comes is the tropic of cancer, a few hundred miles south of stonehenge.
So at both solstices it is south of due east-west. It's just that in winter it's much further south than it is in summer. -
Message 10
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Sunday, 29th November 2009
Sun, 29 Nov 2009 20:19 GMT, in reply to WalterPTwynn in message 8
I doubt the alignment is a coincidence; various other examples of prehistoric architecture shows deliberate alignment with solar events - for example, on the Spring and Autumn equinoxes the sun shines straight down the passage of La Hougue Bie Neolithic tomb in Jersey, and for a few minutes illuminates the main chamber. -
Message 11
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Monday, 30th November 2009
I doubt the alignment is a coincidence; various other examples of prehistoric architecture shows deliberate alignment with solar events - for example, on the Spring and Autumn equinoxes the sun shines straight down the passage of La Hougue Bie Neolithic tomb in Jersey, and for a few minutes illuminates the main chamber.Â
I'm sure you're right. If we didn't live in societies largely divorced from growing our own food (and without calendars) we'd be less surprised that folk built monuments which measured the solstices. -
Message 12
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Monday, 30th November 2009
The Tiverton and Mid Devon Astronomy Society seem like a well-behaved, likeable and level-headed bunch. On their website (which I commend as one of the best amateur astronomy sites I've ever seen) they have a rather lucid, impassionate and very informative analysis of Stonehenge as an astronomical tool, at least in so far as it has been proposed as such by more reputable sources in recent centuries.
Best of all is that they leave you to draw your own conclusion based on the info they present. My own is that the Winter solstice, if it was of importance to anyone in neolithic times, could be celebrated by witnessing the sun shining through a crack in Stonehenge as well as anywhere else, probably even better than anywhere else - the guys had built so many cracks! Mind you, if you wanted to promote sunrise on your granny's birthday as an event to be communally celebrated there was a crack for that too.
Here's their website.
-
Message 13
Posted by baz (U14168465) on Monday, 30th November 2009
The idea of a midwinter festival certainly seems more likely. After all, I don't think there have ever been any traditional midsummer festivals, have there?
I'm only going by intuition here, but wouldn't people be too busy in the fields during june to celebrate anything? Surely festivals would be held when there was a chance of some leisure time; ie, after harvest, middle of winter, etc. -
Message 14
Posted by Frank Parker (U7843825) on Monday, 30th November 2009
Baz I don't think there have ever been any traditional midsummer festivals Nobody told Will Shakespeare before he wrote "A Midsummer Night's Dream"
-
Message 15
Posted by Huscarl (U1753368) on Sunday, 6th December 2009
Adam Hart-Davis stated this in one of his programmes, he meant that today's solstice worshippers have it wrong, not the Druids or prehistoric builders..
He said that those people today that show up to the henge on June 21st, are 6months too early and should really be there at the winter solstice on December 21st...and facing the other way by exactly 180°. -
Message 16
Posted by Bubble Works (U14532674) on Tuesday, 27th July 2010
Has anyone ever considered that Stonehenge may have just been a fancy Village Hall and may have had soemthing like a straw roof and walls of which only the stones remain due to it's age? Maybe the fact that there is an astrological alignment is either pure accident or the local architect thought it would make a nice feature to have the sun shine into a certain window at a certain time of the year, but nothing to do with religion or anything else?
-
Message 17
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Wednesday, 28th July 2010
In the summer the sun is "high in the sky" and so rises north of due east and sets north of due west,
Quoted from this messageÂ
Actually it doesn't. The furthest North the sun comes is the tropic of cancer, a few hundred miles south of stonehenge.
So at both solstices it is south of due east-west. It's just that in winter it's much further south than it is in summer.Â
I took a look at and found that in London today July 28th, Sunrise at 05:18 in direction 57° East-northeast
Sunset at 20:55 in direction 303° West-northwest
Duration of day: 15 hours, 37 minutes (2 minutes, 56 seconds shorter than yesterday)
Sun in south at 13:07 at altitude 57° above horizon. -
Message 18
Posted by Prof Muster (U14387921) on Friday, 30th July 2010
About Present Sun Solstices in correlation with Stonehence original construction-Date.
I think that above 'Message 9 of Frank Parker' is the most accurate accessment of the purpose of Stone-henge Wood-henge and all other Henges.
You may not be aware of the following and if you were, you should become a Cartographer.
Earth Axis is at an angle of 25% alignment from it's orbit-plain around the Sun.
"I knew that" will many people say" I knew that"
But nobody who is a Stone-Henge affiliate or affichionado has ever considdered the consequence of that Situation.
It simply means that in Historical times the Earth Axis must have been Straight-up and a natural catastrophy has caused this alignment.
At that time the Zodiak/grid of Starsigns was so established that it was inefficient to devise a new Straight axis so the( egyptian/Greek-)astronomers, kept the old one allbeit at an awkward angle.
Amongst the close circle of Ancient-Cartographers it is common knowledge when the Earth-Axis got at the present angle that Year was 855 bc.
In Ancient Egyptian Tomb walls and astronomy Papyrii, the year 800 bc is mentioned as the Year of the Great turnabout or tippetop of Earth's Axis
Details of Bookmarks on this alignment will only bore the public.
Be as it may,
most Stonehenge researchers like to assign a too ancient building program to the Stonehenge construction like,
10.000 or 5.000 bc. This is nonsence and they knew it !
Conclusion:
Since in ancient egyptian astronomy the( inaccurate )date of 800 bc is mentioned as the authoritive date for the 25% RE-ALIGNMENT of Earth's Axis,
And the modern alignments and Sun solstiches are monitored by the Present Stone-henge-design construction,
one should take it for granted that the general construction date is no older than 855-800 bc.
In my view,
The Stone-henge circular construction is non-other than a practical 'Planetarium' at night and a Sun-Dial at Daytime.
Keeping in mind that a Moon-calendar is easier to handle than a sun-calender, the tonehenge is primairily a Moon- calender used at nights.
Another thing is that the Circular 'moats' are now dry, but may have been lined with mortar and filled with permanent water once, reflecting the Moon and Stars at wind-still nights,
Thus creating a vision of the Starsigns as if one looked at a mirror or from above the starsigns unto the Earth.
What a representation of a celestial Globe actually does. It shows the Starsigns from above not from Beneave, but only through the medium of water-reflection.
in Plato's account of Atlantis he describes the ' Giant' circular canals of that City which were broad and deep and bridged over.
Yet Scientists like Dr. Galanopoulos in 1950 already mentioned that by misrepresenting not egyptian- but obsolete Greek numerals the supposed size of these Atlantis Circular Cannals should be divided by 10.
in that case Atlantis Capital would be none-other than an oversized Stone-henge, allbeit shaped by a natural phenomenon present in all fracture-lining Mud-volcanoes in the world. Forinstance
Like Accapulco and Aden. or at the Hoggar desertfields of Algeria in north-Africa.
But why this obsession about daily Hours or Moon- Months ?
The explanation again is rather simple.
When The wWorld was Created in all Creation-Myths,
and Adam and Eve lived in it, this was NOT in 4.000 bc nor 4.million bc
Most ancient-historians ignore the political situation in Egypt in the year 855 bc.
when the Earth-Axis tumbled,
An Assyrian king called himself GOD-of-Paradize and had a gloss added in Genesis chapter 3 verse 3, and chased Adam and Eve from it, accusing them of wanting the same thing. This God of paradiase was a Jeallous one that did not tolerate other Kings as God of Paradise.
The name in english of this New GOD was Salmanasser-3 the names of Adam & Eve were Amenhotep-4 and Nefertete,( who were the original 'Gods-of-Paradise' and salmanasser-3 was just a keen usurper. These were their real names that the O-T Bible omitted to mention.
Salmanasser-3 now the new God Amon/ Zeus and Shiva ordered that everywhere Assyrian colonies or might was present, Moon-planetaria were to be built because he feared the Moon's orbit on a collision course and wanted posterity to be pre-warned for it.
Even in Jerusalem on the' Walls of Sion'( a waterlogged Planetarium.) he had Moonwatchers called euphorically Cherubs as watchmen established.
GOD-king Salmanasser-3 Styled himself,' Lord of the four corners of the World and Stone-henge in England might just have been one of those'corners of the Assyrian World'.
Sincerely -
Message 19
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Friday, 30th July 2010
Where do you get the idea that the earth's axis wasn't tilted in astronomically modern times?
The current tilt, incidentally, is about 23.5° NOT 25° but varies between 22.1° and 24.5° with a 42,000 year period.
If there was no inclination of the earth's axis, how do you explain the alignment of the heliacal rising of Sirius to predict the Nile floods?
How, also, do you explain the pyramid shaft alignments on the Pole Star (OK, it was then Thuban not Polaris, and will move on to Vega in tthe next few centuries)? -
Message 20
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Friday, 30th July 2010
Hi Urnungal
It's a great pity but I've tried to engage with Prof Muster myself on specific points from his posts and have totally failed to elicit an answer.
I think the best thing is to do exactly what you have done; correct factual errors (so that other posters aren't misled) and hope that in time he will gain enough confidence to enter in to an ordinary conversation here.
TP -
Message 21
Posted by The Gosport One (U14343205) on Monday, 2nd August 2010
Qutoing Prof Muster
"It simply means that in Historical times the Earth Axis must have been Straight-up and a natural catastrophy has caused this alignment.
"
Where is the proof of a natural catastrophy of the magnitude to shift the earths axis 25 % in 855 BC ? -
Message 22
Posted by Prof Muster (U14387921) on Wednesday, 4th August 2010
There is such a thing called Cosmology.
Any seroius cosmologist knows that Earth's axis used to be straight in historical times.
The Egyptians recorded that Earth's axis was tilted ( by various degrees in 800 untill it established equilibrium in 647 bc. quit hairsplitting about the angle[Mars axis-angle is 23% I believe.])
IF, by my theory,
Earth axis was straight until 855 bc, this means that the 3 Pyramids at Ghizeh/Sakkara from CHEOPS/Caphra/Cuphra, of the 3rd/4-th Dynasty,
that are aligned with the rising and setting of the Sun's solstices, couldn't have been built in say:' 2.000 bc' but rather after 855 bc.
From the Manethoon-Chronology-Chart there is a suspicion that certain Dynasties have been recorded double, but under slightly different names so that some 500 non-existing years went unnoticed untill 1950.
By then mosty ancient history publishers felt that this 'anomaly' had best been forgotten.
Sorry for not quoting bookmarks I have Alzheimer's disease, I even misplace my notes on a cubic Meter on my desk -
Message 23
Posted by Prof Muster (U14387921) on Wednesday, 4th August 2010
The answers I gave never satisfied the query/informers.
There is such a thing as Cosmology.
in ordinary cosmology it is known for almost the past 3.000 years, that the Egyptian Priest recorded that the MOON fell to Earth around 800 bc.
My date as rule of Thumb is 855 bc.
There is a story in the Old-Testament ( Book of Joshua/Jasher.)that the MOON was originally named'
The splendour of Israel or the Light Angel called Lucifer/ Theosphoros
Shall I continue ? -
Message 24
Posted by Prof Muster (U14387921) on Wednesday, 4th August 2010
As I was saying earlier,
There is such a thing as Cosmology,
In Cosmology the Earth's Axix supposedly was straight -up, but the Angel- of- Light(= The Moon.)
revolted and deviated from the normal courses of the surrounding Planets and was ' Cast by god'into the Dephts of the Earth.
In Egypt the date is recorded by egyptian astronomy-priesrts as 800 bc
in my theory this should be 855 bc.
In Greece this Myth of the Moon falling to Earth was mentioned twice not as a doublett of ONE'Moonfall' but as two separate occasions.
MOON in Greece was first named EURYNOME, than, IO, than DIONE than DIONE-NYSSOS or THYPHON/ THYPHON-NEUS and IANASSA in Babylon.
in another Myth the greek Moon was named HAEPHAISTOS
From Haephaistos it is known that first he was cast to earth by Zeus, Secondly by his mother HERA.
In Egyptian Myth, God RA, sent his' EYE"(= meaning the Moon called MAAT-RE.) to devastate Earth.
The Puncians called her ISARAR, ISHTAR/ Atargatis or Astoreth/
in Greek(= egyptian)Myth variant Zeus sent Pandora(= the Moon.) or was bound by a promise to his offshoot-son Phaeton to mend the solar-way-wagon.
This prooved too much and the Solar vessel(= the Moon.) went astray and hit Earth in 855 bc.
Earth was shaken and much forests were set afire
To Stop ASTORETH/ ISHTAR devastating Earth, Zeus/Poseidon floodded Earth with Red" Beer"(= the volcanic dust called'LOSS'.)
The Moon actually hit Earth but luckly at unihabited places,
in 1055 at Antartica taking waterice from space which accounts for it on the Poles
and in 855 on the isles of hawaii causing a Grand-Flood or global-Tsunami.
In the Greek Bible Septuagint, Hephaistos is re-named as the DEVIL/ SATAN that also' Fell to Earth'
SATAN in the New-Testament is either the Roman Senate or it's chairman Pompey.
I am sure that this was NOT the replay/reply that you wanted to hear
Ps were you perhaps also intrested in Bookmarkquotations of ancient philosophers on the above subject ? When I read them 20 years ago I forgot to jot them down. I apologize for this inconveniance. -
Message 25
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Wednesday, 4th August 2010
Hi Prof Muster
If you go outside now and listen carefully you will probably be able to hear the noise of my repeatedly hitting my head against a wall up here in Yorkshire!
I think this will probably be my last post to you, but kind regards anyway,
TP -
Message 26
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Wednesday, 4th August 2010
By then mosty ancient history publishers felt that this 'anomaly' had best been forgotten.Â
This is intruiging. What could all history publishers possibly have to gain from conspiring together to deny us this knowledge?
Seriously, this would be a huge risk to reputations of publishing houses, require a lot of organizing, bribing authors etc. And for what?
Perhaps I'm just cynical, but it would have had to be a really big amount of cash to convince them to put in that much work to "deny" something so utterly trivial and irrelevant. -
Message 27
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Wednesday, 4th August 2010
Wed, 04 Aug 2010 19:13 GMT, in reply to cloudyj in message 26
TwinProbe, cloudyj, you must have faith. In support of the Prof's theories, are you not aware that the 'Doctor Who' story 'The Tenth Planet' (backed up by the audio story 'Spare Parts') shows that the Earth's twin planet MONDAS was in ancient times hurled into SPACE after the cosmic orbits were disturbed by the behaviour of the MOON, resulting in the creation of the CYBERMEN?
Seriously, it is Isaiah not Joshua which refers to the fall of Lucifer. The name Lucifer refers to the Morning Star - that is, Venus, not the Moon. I also suspect that the Moon hitting the Earth in 1055 would have had catastrophic effects (we're talking mass extinction on a scale not seen since the end of the dinosaurs, here), regardless of where it hit. -
Message 28
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Wednesday, 4th August 2010
Hi Anglo-Norman,
we're talking mass extinction on a scale not seen since the end of the dinosaurs, here" Â
Well you can say that again. The moon is huge compared to any asteroid one can think of. The fact that both earth and moon are in stable orbits and earth still has life and an atmosphere rules out any possibility of the theory.
However Earth's twin Mondas does exist as all true believers know; it was very wrong of you to hint otherwise.
Kind regards,
TP -
Message 29
Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Wednesday, 4th August 2010
TwinProbe, cloudyj, you must have faith.Â
I do. I have faith in the laziness of mankind which says facts aren't hidden (as opposed to merely lost) unless someone profits from the hiding. -
Message 30
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Thursday, 5th August 2010
The answers I gave never satisfied the query/informers.Â
What you have done - as usual, if you bother to answer - is to repeat the same unsubstantiated load of ordure. Repeating something three times only makes it true in the world of Lewis Carroll, not in historical discussions. Cite some evidence, please, if you wish to be taken seriously. -
Message 31
Posted by Somali_Bus_Conductor (U14006101) on Friday, 27th August 2010
I've only just come across this topic.
I'd strongly recommend the book 'Stonehenge: Neolithic man and the cosmos' by The late Prof John North which investigates the question of astronomical alignments of Stonehenge and other Iron Age monuments.
He makes the point that there is a general alignment on the midwinter sunrise across most if not all of these monuments. It is therefore consistent that Stonehenge should be similarly orientated.
This is a link to Prof North's obit in the Independent, which will I'm sure be of interest to those who wish to increase their knowledge of Stonehenge and ancient astronomy.
About this Board
The History message boards are now closed. They remain visible as a matter of record but the opportunity to add new comments or open new threads is no longer available. Thank you all for your valued contributions over many years.
or  to take part in a discussion.
The message board is currently closed for posting.
The message board is closed for posting.
This messageboard is .
Find out more about this board's
Search this Board
Â鶹ԼÅÄ iD
Â鶹ԼÅÄ navigation
Â鶹ԼÅÄ links
Â鶹ԼÅÄ Â© 2014 The Â鶹ԼÅÄ is not responsible for the content of external sites. Read more.
This page is best viewed in an up-to-date web browser with style sheets (CSS) enabled. While you will be able to view the content of this page in your current browser, you will not be able to get the full visual experience. Please consider upgrading your browser software or enabling style sheets (CSS) if you are able to do so.