Ancient and ArchaeologyΜύ permalink
Islamic heaven & Valhalla: Linked?
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Message 1.Μύ
Posted by baz (U14168465) on Tuesday, 27th October 2009
Apparently, when Muhammad was a boy, he went on trading journeys with his uncle, into what is now Syria.
At that time, the Byzantines employed many Germanic mercenaries throughout the Levant and near-east.
My question is: could the the Islamic view of "Heaven" derive from the Germanic cultural influences Muhammad may have experienced at this time? That is: the idea of drinking in heaven; the idea of attractive women picking up the bodies of warriors from the battlefield,etc,etc?
These aren't new ideas, but I'd like to hear others' views. -
Message 2
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 29th October 2009
The key to the Islamic idea of heaven is the notion of instant and limitless gratification as a reward for a good life by Islamic standards. The traditional description of this jannah is one furnished, just as one would expect, by that which would most appeal to a poor desert-based community. The Koran text does however include the proviso that the description does not cover the subject comprehensively - and their god is quoted as warning that the tidbits he's given Mohammed of what paradise entails is nothing compared to the bits he didn't say.
Germanic religions' versions of the afterlife had apparently quite a different motivation and concept, though superficially individual aspects to their paradise correspond with Islam. But then so do just about any concepts of religious-inspired paradise too.
I would also question the presumption of "Germanic mercenaries" deployed throughout the Levant in the 7th century at all, let alone their religious persuasion or the strength of religious conviction these may or may not have had, or indeed their opportunity or likelihood - even if they existed - to influence the putative religious leanings of Arabic tradesmen touring the area on business.
There is huge evidence of Islam being not only influenced but one could say spawned by Judaism and Christianity. There is also rather compelling evidence that it was further informed in its initial development by acquisitions in Asia which exposed it to more oriental religious influences and concepts. But there is, to my knowledge, no reason even for speculation that it had ever to source its theological raw materials from anywhere except these dominant religions within which it germinated (pardon the pun). -
Message 3
Posted by baz (U14168465) on Thursday, 29th October 2009
I'm pretty sure that the Varangian Guard, the elite soldiers who protected the Byzantine emperors, were almost totally made up of Germanic mercenaries, their courage being unmatched throughout the empire. Their reputation was well known throughout the empire, so it is likely that Arabs would have known about them and their beliefs.
At the battle of Manzikert in 1071, some of the remnants of Harold Godwinsson's housecarls were seen 'swinging their deadly axes' in defence of the Byzantine emperor Diogenes. Of course, that was a lost cause but it shows the high esteem in which Germanic soldiers were held. -
Message 4
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 29th October 2009
I'm pretty sure that the Varangian Guard, the elite soldiers who protected the Byzantine emperors, were almost totally made up of Germanic mercenaries.
Μύ
Norse, rather than Germanic - the principal difference being that they had made their way to Byzantium following rather impressive military and commercial incursions through Russian and Slav territories over many years and had, as Varangians, acquired rather a distinct cultural espression en route.
They were also in Byzantium over three hundred years after Mohammed's alleged boyhood and, as said, in Byzantium, not the Levant. Their first recorded deployment as mercenaries fighting for the Byzantine emperor was in Crete in 902CE.
And as I said, there is no record that I am aware of indicating pre-Varangian "Germans" operating in the Levant in the manner you allude to or with the capacity to influence nascent Islamic theology as you also allude to. -
Message 5
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Tuesday, 3rd November 2009
As said by Normann, back in the , army 7th century when Mohamed taught his version of religion, there were no Varangians. In fact, there were not even Goths since - at least in the east part - they had been absorbed by the descending Slavic (mainly Bulgarian) tribes, while in the west having formed their kingdom along with Vandals and Alans in North Africa, as well their own in Spain they had been 'recently' (some decades back) defeated by the Byzantine army but - quite surprisingly - then hardly any substantial quantity of them ended up in the Byzantine army, possibly not interested in maintaining the large numbers Justinian had maintained in the 6th century which ended up risking the complete financial failure of the Empire. In anyway most if not all of these Germanic (Ostrogoths, Visigoths and Vandals) & Caucaso-Iranian (Alans and Sarmatians) tribes were already christianised, most of them of the Arian sect.
The Varangian guard came 300 years after Mohamed, at a time the muslim religion had already taken much of its shape. They were initially Russians, Vickings ruling over the Russians, so we can guess that much of those 5,000 soldiers sent by the Russian king, were actually Slavs, not much of a difference for Byzantines who would call Varangian just any blond coming from the north willing to enlist in their army. In the 1Γ©th century, Varangians were largely Saxon soldiers that found a new professional career in the south after their defeat in England.
Varangians were indeed highly esteemed warriors but in an army as complex and as high-tech as the Byzantine they were not there for skills. They were mainly because they were trusted, much more trusted than local armies. Indeed, Varangians famously never (or almost never) intermingled in Konstantinople politics keeping always a distance from the ongoings, something that on the one hand secured their positions and their profitable careers but also on the other hand secured their own heads (or should say eyes, the good old Roman punishment for traitors that was maintained by the Byzantines despite any opposition to such extreme corporal violence). Varangians were traditionally a guard, thus a special force, and as it is it could never replace the standard soldier that was the core of this army, but sometimes due to their substantial numbers (exceeding 7,000) it was deployed as just another standard army unit at the forefront.
In the Matzikert battle, Varangians were merely the personal guard of the Emperor and the fact that they were around him till the end while others had gone does not reveal much:
First, the Matzikert battle was a sweeping Byzantine victory, and a very easy one since Seljuks lost not only the fortress of Matzikert in a matter of a couple of hours but also fled most if not all of the positions they had taken in Minor Asia as soon as the Byzantine army arrived. What had happened was that during the chasing of the rooted Seljuk army, a member of the Komneno-doukes family (Komnenoi + Doukes families), declared a sudden retreat causing a conflict of orders and momentary chaos in a part of the Byzantine army - all accidentally - on that side Emperor Romanos was fighting. Romanos was found all of a sudden alone (well with his guards) in the battlefield, the Seljuks - most of them cavalry - just counter-attacked mostly by curiosity and to inflict 2-3 blows more since they found the chance to do so than by any clear will to win any battle, and thus they captured the Emperor. Arlp Arslan when found out that he had the Emperor declared victory of course but on the other hand forbid his army to do any celebrations about it saying that "it was merely Allah that brought madness in the minds of Romans" (that is how we call treason...).
Needless to say that the bulk of the Byzantine army and even higher officials seemed to ignore (or simply not care about) the fate of the Emperor and went on to attack other Seljuk positions clearing them from the area at all cases.
They say Seljuks exploited the fact that the Komneno-doukes could not rise to power directly declaring the Emperor void, and thus they negotiatied a very beneficial deal. However the Komneno-doukes rose to power clearly only after 1 decade of practical anarchy, while Seljuks returned to Minor Asia after 15 nearly 20 years the battle.
Therefore it is not at all clear that connection and if one takes into consideration the will of Byzantine plutocrats to invest in north Italian shipping industry imposing to the Emperors to hand them tax-free access to the ports of the Empire and compares it with the fact that Seljuks rarely ever taxed like a proper state all commerce from the Middle East then we could end up easily with the hugest business scum of the middle ages... we may talk about the mother of all delocalisations. Note that the Empire riched its most rich state not at Basil Bulgaroktonos in the early 11th century but during the late 12 century not long before its final collapse in 1204. Albeit the money were then in the hands of the few - the main reason of final collapse that came with the catholics (and not the turkish). -
Message 6
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Wednesday, 4th November 2009
Baz,
In addition to the objections above, Mohamed assiduosly rejected ANY pagan influence. If you read the Koran, or any biography of Mohamed, this is clear. As the influences you are looking for do not seem to be Christian, if Mohamed was aware of their pagan background, he would have rejected it, I think.
Equally clearly, Mohamed took much of his imagery from both Jewish and Christian tales. Added to this are the sorts of imagery that would appeal to people from the harcs Arabian peninsular, with lots of lush gardens.
Your reference to beautiful women picking up bodies from the battlefield ( do not recall this from my reading on Islam) is more likely to have come about because the battles that Mohamed fought in often had women in attendance. In fact, on at least one occasion, the intervention of a female was deemed cricial. -
Message 7
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Wednesday, 4th November 2009
Well that a paradise would not be at all appealing to men if it did not have beautiful women available is not only the case then but even today... just revealing what big scums were all these preachings... Mohamed, like other prophets, tried to avoid such "obstacles to credibility" by mentioning that the true nature of religion is revealed only to the very knowledgeable and that all other references are mere descriptions to describe the undescribable... But then how convenient the reference to... women - and what a lack of motivation for women for whom there were no ideal men in paradise - on the contrary the most beautiful of them would become prostitutes to all good men in paradise (unless these famous "Urees" would be extra terrestrial beings.
In fact if I remember well, "islam" is not any focal point for the teachings of Mohamed, it is just the initiation for people of lower understanding (back then at best semi-illiterate). For the knowledgeables he uses another term. I think the shufi movement draws from the latter... -
Message 8
Posted by baz (U14168465) on Tuesday, 10th November 2009
I heard once that beautiful women were seen flying over the battleground of al Badr, picking up the bodies of the dead - not dissimilar from Valkyries.
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Message 9
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Thursday, 12th November 2009
I think, Baz, you may be mis-remembering something. The link below shows the orthodox Islamic take on it. Rather than valkyrie picking up the dead, we have 5,000 deadly angels taking part in the fighting.
The promise of heavenly help in battle is reflected in many religious traditions. Everyone wants a little help in war, so such stories do not need outside influence to explain them.
From the Koran : Al-i-Imran 3:123β125 (Yusuf Ali). βAllah had helped you at Badr, when ye were a contemptible little force; then fear Allah; thus May ye show your gratitude.Β§ Remember thou saidst to the Faithful: "Is it not enough for you that Allah should help you with three thousand angels (Specially) sent down?Β§ "Yea, - if ye remain firm, and act aright, even if the enemy should rush here on you in hot haste, your Lord would help you with five thousand angels Making a terrific onslaught.Β§β
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