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What causes a civilisation to decline and fail ?

• Message 1.Μύ

  Posted by poppyanddaisy (U14107848) on Wednesday, 2nd September 2009

  In a similar vein to the other discussion - what are the cheif causes of the destruction and failure of civilisations ? - natural disaster as with Crete ? conquest as with Egypt / Persia / Dacians / Celts ? Over salination as with Babylon ? Minoan Greece - who knows ? - do they really disappear ? Hellenistic / Roman ?

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  Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Wednesday, 2nd September 2009

  Sometimes failure of civilisations is quite relative, for example we may not say that the Hellenic civilisation failed by Roman conquest - quite the contrary, it continued business as usual.
  
  Most often it is all about dwindling ressources a thing that has not been monitored very well when studying history. You work you make things, at some point you have to dig and search deeper or search elsewhere. As the first is not always easy, you do the second. Funnily just before such a change you see the local aristocracy somehow setting business elsewhere like rats quiting the ship (the example of Greek aristocracies setting business in North Italy in the 10th and 11th century - despite being the peak of Byzantine Empire - is quite evident. Earlier, perhaps within their own Empire, Romans moved their capital first to the north, then to the north east and then to the east, prior to the western part falling to invasions.
  
  Reduction of population is a second main event, it follows the dwindling ressources. Conquest by foreigners is a third result, often too provoked by the previous two...
  
  Sometimes it is just bad luck: the biological reasons is often forgotten: Amerindians would had never given space to Europeans had they not been susceptible to European diseases at a 90% mortality rate (90% of them had actually died between 1500 and 1600, most before ever meeting a "pale face" - imagine that as soon as Cortez placed his foot in the Aztec capital a terrible disease started...).
  

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  Posted by U V (U2084947) on Wednesday, 2nd September 2009

  "Sometimes it is just bad luck: the biological reasons is often forgotten: Amerindians would had never given space to Europeans had they not been susceptible to European diseases ..."
  
  Actually even that is not really just bad luck ... Europeans carried those diseases as an effect of the greater concentration of the population in Europe and the much greater adoption of agriculture - especially contact with livestock.
  
  Jared Diamond has written on the issue in his book, "guns, germs and steel". He also considers decline of civilization in "Collapse".

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  Posted by priscilla (U1793779) on Thursday, 3rd September 2009

  Re the Indus Valley (3000BC 1500BC) ( aprox 160 cities and settlements) - its demise was gradual judging from the higher strata of debris investigated.
  
  Since the cities were built with millions of red bricks, decimation of their environment seems a likely cause of their gradual decline,
  
  Possible too is climate change - savannah type animals were profuse at the time - and were the totem objects on ther seals. Climate - either huge floods or drought would have caused problems; not only for food but for their export trade of cotton.
  
  That the river Indus flooded then and many times since is an obvious factor. As it must be for many of the river civilisations; they grew from the river and were destroyed by it.
  
  Attack by lesser tribes possible but little sign of it. There wer a few bodies in the upper layer, clearly killed and left toot where they fell so not really evidence of a sudden effect but a sad echo in emptiness.
  
  Regards, P.

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  Posted by fimbar (U14054219) on Thursday, 3rd September 2009

  P&D
  
  All of those things, i recon, and more. Does get my nut sometimes when i consider the causation of the decline of Egypt..If they really do meet the mandatory requirements that cause a civilization to evolve then they must of, from a logical point of view , had begun thier own Ascent at around 12-13000 bc this then gives strengh to the rational as to why they "declined" when they did. But it seems that logic plays no part in the overall picture...
  Seems to me that a "decline" can sometimes seem to be an ascent.
  Beauty is , after all, in the Eyes of the beholder.
  So from my side of the fence i see an ascent of civilisation, and i use the context of Ascent to mean " A movement or return toward a source or beginning."
  
  kind wishes
  Fimber

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  Posted by fimbar (U14054219) on Friday, 4th September 2009

  You know that none of yous can comment on this point without "compromising" yourselfs.
  
  Fimbar...?

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  Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Friday, 4th September 2009

  You know that none of yous can comment on this point without "compromising" yourselfs.Μύ
  
  I disagree.

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  Posted by fimbar (U14054219) on Saturday, 5th September 2009

  Good Morning ...CJ
  
  What is it then that causes a civilization to decline.
  This will obviously need a definition of the place which is thought to represent the pinnacle of ascendancy..
  IE; The circumstance and social order at time of that pinnacle of ascendancy..For instance, if history is true, as written, then the Egyptian civilization ruled the "roost" for many millennium, and would of been "owners" of many hundreds of thousands of slaves. Thier Armies would of been responsible for the Annihilation and ransacking of all of its neighbours.
  During drought, the ruling classes would of had food and water and the poor would of starved to death...
  So this , the circumstance of Egypt's Golden age..What then constitutes,a decline..?
  Loss of slaves.?
  Loss of its control of its neighbours.?
  Or maybe the poors desire to revolt...etc, etc..
  
  Kind regards good sir
  
  fimber

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• Message 9

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  Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Tuesday, 8th September 2009

  What is it then that causes a civilization to decline.Μύ
  
  There are as many causes of decline as there are civilizations that have declined. Some, like Qing China, never strictly declined, but failed to advance as the rest of the world did around them.
  
  This will obviously need a definition of the place which is thought to represent the pinnacle of ascendancy..
  IE; The circumstance and social order at time of that pinnacle of ascendancy.Μύ
  
  That's a fairly agreable definition. But not so easy to discern in practice. Societies are often in flux and the lack of valuing one aspect of society could be both a sign of decline or a sign of improvement. For instance. As pyramids in Egypt got smaller (and cheaper) after the 4th Dynasty, there is a huge improvement associated with temple building. To assume a decline is wrong as the engineeering required to build temples compared to pyramids is much more complicated. Or in terms of Britain, we no longer build the likes of Salisbury Cathedral despite having all the skills to do so, but the church would argue that society has advanced when you spend the money on pastoral care rather than monuments to God. And although more beautiful than the skyscrapers at Canary Wharf, it's a much less complicated building to construct.
  
  For instance, if history is true, as written, then the Egyptian civilization ruled the "roost" for many millennium, and would of been "owners" of many hundreds of thousands of slaves. Thier Armies would of been responsible for the Annihilation and ransacking of all of its neighbours.
  Μύ
  
  I doubt your premise that Egypt did rule the roost. They has a certain amount of hegemony over their near neighbours, but certainly didn't dominate the other regional superpowers such as the Babylonians or Hittites (depite the claims of Rameses lying monuments). The concept that they were the sole great power of the near east is based on the fact that archaeologists knew about Egypt earlier than they discovered the remians of other civilizations in the area.
  
  So this , the circumstance of Egypt's Golden age..What then constitutes,a decline..?Μύ
  
  Good question. For many in Egypt, that "golden age" never varied except in times of famine, war or disease. Being conquored by their neighbours may have been the end of one golden age, but Egypt flourished again under the Ptolemies in terms of art and culture (but not military).

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  Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Tuesday, 8th September 2009

  <quote>..If they really do meet the mandatory requirements that cause a civilization to evolve then they must of, from a logical point of view , had begun thier own Ascent at around 12-13000 bc</quote>
  
  Why "must" they? The traditional view is based on findings of plant remains which indicate domestication from roughly 8000BC, primitive villages and tools from the same period have been discovered and dated using proper scientific techniques (not just gut feeling that they must be old). There is evidence, again dated using scientific techniques, of the architecutre improving over time in a logical progression to better houses, mastaba tombs, multiple layered mastabas, to pyramids. In civil architecture, we see early grain pits developed as time passes to granaries. None of these require such an old date as you claim. Basic propriety marking appears in Egypt late and develops over a few hundred years into primitve pictograms then into the heiroglyphs we know and love today.
  
  <quote>But it seems that logic plays no part in the overall picture...
  </quote>
  
  Why should logic be part of when a civilization declines? Many decline due to unexpected and random events such as disease or natural disaster.
  
  <quote>Seems to me that a "decline" can sometimes seem to be an ascent.
  Beauty is , after all, in the Eyes of the beholder.</quote?
  
  Indeed. Societies change what they value. The aesthetics of hospital buildings have definitely declined since the Victorian period, but I'd much rather have the modern NHS!
  
  
  <quote>So from my side of the fence i see an ascent of civilisation, and i use the context of Ascent to mean " A movement or return toward a source or beginning."
  </quote>
  
  The problem is that the rest of the world uses the word ascent to mean the opposite. If you really want to discuss issues with other people, you really need to be very clear when you've unilaterally reversed the meaning of words.
  

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  Posted by fimbar (U14054219) on Tuesday, 8th September 2009

  Sorry CJ
  
  I am going to step out of this thread. But before i go please go to wikipedia for the full Monty on the word ascent..{5th definition} Maybe even put Jacob bronowski into your search engine
  I made this clear in my post...
  The point i am making is that we , as human beings {by your record} have never been civilized...{sad in-it}
  
  Best wishes
  F

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