Ancient and ArchaeologyΒ permalink
Assyrians, anyone realise they still exist?
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Message 1.Β
Posted by SARGONID (U14121283) on Sunday, 30th August 2009
Really just trying to find out how much knowledge there actually is of the existence of the Assyrian people.
The modern Assyrians still speak Mesopotamian Aramaic, a language that has a few hundred loan words of Akkadian and even one or two from Sumerian within it. They are exclusively Christians, being either Eastern Rite, Orthodox or Chaldean Catholic, and retain distinct family, tribal and personal names.
The modern Assyrians are the direct descendants of the ancient Mesopotamians (Assyrians & Babylonians, who had in turn absorbed the Sumerians) and of the Arameans they interbred with from 1200BCE.
I was wondering what people know of them, bearing in mind that most seem to think them extinct, and the media tends to portray Assyrians simply as "Christians" when reporting on Iraq.Link to this forum: Assyrians, anyone realise they still exist?
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Message 2
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Monday, 31st August 2009
Modern Assyrians are one the oldest existing nations (I mean nations that actively took part in history since very early), next to Greeks, Iranians, Indians and Chinese. They were originally semitic but less related to other aramaic people and more to Akkadians but after having gained control of Mesopotamia they adopted the Aramaic language for wider use (Assyrian was used by the noblemen) and themselves contributed to its further expansion. They rose with kings like Sargon II who waged wars in the region of Middle East, in majority victorious - Sargon II is said to had been innovator of military tactics and had tought a lot to people like the Medes...
Assyrians as a nation were never lost. They became part of the Babylonian, Median and Persian Empires, then part of the Hellenistic kingdom created by Alexander's general Seleucos. In the Roman period they were a rich region of the Roman Empire, very importance since in the cross-roads of commerce. Like the rest of the Empire they were christianised. They followed monophysitism which created tensions with the then state catholic-orthodox church and of course easened the progression of islam in the region - however I think that those northern "semitic" border kingdoms allied to Byzantium, positioned in modern north Syria, were in fact Assyrians (correct me if wrong). At the end they followed the fates of the region, changing hands successively from Arabs back to Byzantines then to Selujks and Ottomans.
But their more recent history is even more painted in red... Despite being partly-tolerated by Arabs and Ottomans being armless peaceful people, during 1st world war thanks to the nazi world-view of Young Turks who themselves not even turks, not even muslims, wanted a muslim-only-and-all-turkish state, Assyrochaldeans were considered along with Armenians and Greeks as populations to be systematically exterminated. Out of the 1,000,000 Assyrochaldeans that lived in modern Turkey practically the entire of them got massacred. New massacres followed in the newly established Araba states... to the point that today Assyrochaldeans are majorly a nation of diaspora. There are though still christians in Syria, perhaps the muslim state that "proved to be most kind" to them, 15% of the population or so? How many millions are all of them I ignore.
I happened to meet an Assyrian in the greek army (he was a Phd student that finally took the greek nationality having worked years in the country). He was amazed to meet someone who knew about Assyrians!Link to this forum: Assyrians, anyone realise they still exist?
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Message 3
Posted by fimbar (U14054219) on Monday, 31st August 2009
Nikolaos
Hope you don't mind me coming into your conversation.
I am one who never ceases to wonder at Mans capacity to to do damage to his brother and sisters but in your post you mention "Murder on a grand scale".
Are you saying that the Nazis killed all these people.? As well as all the others they killed.?
Do you have direct experience of all this death and mayhem, or is it something that you have read about.?{ i have a genuine interest }
This must of been a very weird time to be alive.
How did these people even get close to the point of exterminating an entire race.{ you did suggest that the Assyrians "were originally Semitic" } Was this the reason that the Nazis murdered them.?
kind regards
fimbarLink to this forum: Assyrians, anyone realise they still exist?
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Message 4
Posted by fimbar (U14054219) on Tuesday, 1st September 2009
SAGONID
"look up through the clear eyes of yesterday...
trunks surge from the Earth out of roots that run deep in its womb. They raise thier timeless Gnarlings toward the cloud" {Gods of the Earth}.
I think Nikolaos gives a good description of the Assyrian genealogy so i hope my story catches your interest..In another sense.
Assur-nasir-apli ascended the throne of the Assyrian empire in 884bc.Though some would of called this "bod" a bit of a terrorist {because of his excesses} He did have a creative side in his armoury. He rebuilt the city of Kalakh, {Calah of Genesis} which lies on the northern most tributary of the Tigris, near the Modern Iraqi city of Mosul.
One could find oneself lost in the study of this time of Assyrian "ascendancy", especially so in the area of "religious belief" {if interested put Asherah into search engine} There is evidence in the bible book that its rites and rituals were very popular and caused plenty of "punch ups" amongst the leaders of Israel..In the old testaments first book of kings the prophet Elijah challenged the "idolatrous" king Ahab to match 450 prophets of Baal and 400 priests of the Asherah against the Israelite God YWHA..{ What were they on.!}
Maybe the Archaeologists on this esteemed site could tell us more about the ruins of Kalakh...{which were excavated late 19th century} What were the plaques all about, that were found in the staterooms of the palace..?
[looks like an Amenhotep connection to me.?}
The Assyrian legends and endeavours represent a colourful time in Ancient HISTORY and worthy of discussion.
Any comments anyone..?
FimbarLink to this forum: Assyrians, anyone realise they still exist?
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Message 5
Posted by SARGONID (U14121283) on Tuesday, 1st September 2009
Assyrians fought in WW2, they played a major part in crushing the pro Nazi Arab revolution at Habbaniya. Assyrians also fought alongside the British in Various theatres, but there were no Nazi massacres of Assyrians.
The main tragedy came in WW1, when Assyrians, after suffering many centuries of persecution were encouraged to rise up against the Ottomans, and were promised full independence.
Amazingly, they were successful to begin with,but ran out off ammunition, supplies and support from the British and Russians, what followed was a wholesale massacre, mainly of unarmed civilians by the Ottomans, Persians, Arabs and Kurds. Two thirds of the population were wiped out.
Assyrians were the mainstay of British local military support during the Mesopotamian mandate, being used to put down rebellions by hostile Arab and Kurdish forces, but when the British disarmed and disbanded the Assyrian Levies in 1933 when giving Iraq independence, further massacres occurred.
Shlama!Link to this forum: Assyrians, anyone realise they still exist?
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Message 6
Posted by on your toes (U11274411) on Wednesday, 2nd September 2009
For the record my Father, now in his 80s, whilst stationed at Habbaniya, employed a number of Assyrians as clerks. That would have been in 1948/49.
Link to this forum: Assyrians, anyone realise they still exist?
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Message 7
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Wednesday, 2nd September 2009
Guys, the "Nazi" was referring to the movement of Young Turks which saw anything non-muslim as an element to exterminate. Young Turks had already started exterminating Greeks and Armenians much before the WWI so I guess they did the same with Assyrochaldeans.
Sargonid I imagine you are an Assyrian. And it is very interesting that you notice the very same thing for your nation:
"The British aided Assyrochaldeans, gave them weapons to attack the Ottomans...then hoooopppp... no supplies, Assyrian troops become defenseless, but already given an excuse to the Turks, so the Turks can genocide them all..."
Go read about the Greek campaign in the west of roughly the same period (1920-1922)
"The British called in the Greek army as-if to protect the Greeks of Minor Asia but forbid it to approach its navy or hold any strategic position. They pushes the Greeks to go inside as-if ot control better the region giving them ample supplies but continuously forbidding them to get hold of the strategic points, so in the end the Greeks were just making circles inside Anatolia in places were few Greeks lived thus places of absolutely no interest for the Greeks. Then when things still were in control, the Greek government dissolves the prime minister, Venizelos, who worked on all that flies out of the country and another government is voted to stop the war and bring back the troops with an amazing %. But for "unexplained" reasons (the British) the new governement of Gounaris continues even more this campaign that had no strategic scope by pushing the army deep inside, all that still in the first year of 1920. Then all of a sudden, and as the Greek army was isolated deep inside held only by British support (as Greek ships were forbidden and Greek development of supply lines interrupted by British), the British cut all support and let Italians and Russians freely arm the army of Kemal. The Greek army sits for 1 year doing nothing (many officers had quit half for micro-political reasons, half directly smelling the treason by Greek polititians controlled by London-based shipping Greek families... ), thus when the Kemal's army was being supplied with tons of equipment, the Greek army was losing even the last of the basic supplies (literraly: 1 in 2 soldiers had not even boots and walking shoeless just to give an example... and pre-WWI retired 70 years old officers were called in to replace those that had quit...). Naturally the Turks attacked 1 year after (imagine... all that situation 1 year!!! amazing!) and won easily (actually they should have won even more easily than easy), and even then the British did not permit the Greek army to get hold of strategic positions but only permitted its passage to the port (first time they let some ships to carry back the remnants!!!). And it is not finished yet. When general Pagkalos gathered the fleeing Greek armies, regrouped them with new ones from Greece coming from Thrace and full with supplies and made a very much capable army of 120,000 ready to attack Eastern Thrace, the British knowing that Kemal's army could not do anything against this Greek army threatened with total war Greece and so the governement stopped Pagkalos from occupying Konstantinople...in the mean time the Turkish found the excuse to genocide all the Greek and remaining other christian populations of Minor Asia and went on to occupy Eastern Thrace too (where British stopped them fro mkilling the Greeks not for the good but for the worst reason you can imagine: in order to save the Turkish economy that would collapse totally - British advice had been to let them there for 30 years... and so happened, as we know what followed in the 1950s".
The result? Genocide.
Your Assyrochaldean story sounds very similar and I integrate in the same line of thinking: British at the end did not want the presence of christian populations in Minor Asia having already lost the game in financial terms (local businesses outcompeted all western efforts to invest in the region in late 19th early 20th century). Near the oil, there should be no "dangerous" ethnic/societal group.
3 very complicated genocides where very few really understand the amount of responsibility of westerners (it was not only the British, it had been the French and the Italians - the latter openly rejoiced at the genocides getting rid of their competitors in the Mediterranean).Link to this forum: Assyrians, anyone realise they still exist?
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Message 8
Posted by SARGONID (U14121283) on Thursday, 3rd September 2009
Yes, im half Assyrian myself.
Ive heard about the Greek tragedy also, it was a terrible time, Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians and to some degree Georgians were used by the great powers during that period.Link to this forum: Assyrians, anyone realise they still exist?
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Message 9
Posted by SARGONID (U14121283) on Thursday, 3rd September 2009
I think that generally Assyrio-Babylonian culture, myths, customs and laws had a great impact on the Hebrews and their religion...The Flood and Tower of Babel are prime examples.
Link to this forum: Assyrians, anyone realise they still exist?
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Message 10
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Thursday, 3rd September 2009
What happaned in Minor Asia east and west in early 20th century beyond one of the hugest crimes of that century and the first genocides on a massive scale (and the only successful ones!) was also something quite unique: for me the whole region was ethnically engineered so that the boundaries of Europe and Asia to be clear: not so much for Europe to remain christian but mainly for Asia to become christian-free. Had all these Armenians, Greeks and Assyrochaldeans still been there in Minor Asia today you would have easily 20 million christians, I need not say more as to what social evolution there would be and what would be the repercussions in internatinal business in the are when in 19th and early 20th century Greeks and Armenians despite the grave problems against them had ousted most of western competition in the area (one of the major reasons for their genocide being celebrated by westerners). It is not bitterness only towards the British... it was French and majorly the Italians too inside, communist Russians included (that considered Greeks as the possible pray of British). Afterall these things are geopolitics and geopolitics know no sentiments.
It is not something hard to understand all that and it is easily seen in the western attitudes that still prevail "not to talk about these genocides in case it hurts the feelings of turks..." (amazing... one US general was saying last year "yeah I know the armenian genocide happened but we have also our soldiers in Turkish bases so we need not stirr ancient stories... ). But no, it is not so much the need of Turkey as a strategic ally... it is mainly the fact that western europeans were co-responsible for these massacres. They drove things there implicitly even when pretending to fight against Turks (the biggest joke ever...). From there on they consistently protect Turkey and advance the interests of muslims in the Balkans on all occasions (muslims in Balkans are seen as US-friendly against tghe orthodox branded as potentially Russian-friendly... absolutely ridiculous but true).
The prize? The oil-gaz supply of Europe and its control (better say its fragmentation: it suffices to say that after 80 years there still not even 1 pipeline from the Middle East to Europe when there were 100s of pipelines from USSR to countries of average consumption like Poland, or Hungary.... so ... guess why!!!)Link to this forum: Assyrians, anyone realise they still exist?
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Message 11
Posted by SARGONID (U14121283) on Friday, 4th September 2009
Its a terrible shame what happened. From the 7th Century AD Arabization and Islamification systematically erased the cultures, languages, races that had existed uninterrupted in the near east and eastern meditteranean since the dawn of time.
It was miraculous that at the start of the 20th century Greeks, Armenians,Assyrians, Mandeans, Syriacs-Arameans, Maronite-Phonecians still existed.
The Greeks should have been given part of Asia Minor, Armenia should have stretched as far as Lake Van or even the Iraqi border, Assyria should have been independent, and seperate nations should have been created for Syriacs, Maronites, Copts etc.Link to this forum: Assyrians, anyone realise they still exist?
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Message 12
Posted by fimbar (U14054219) on Friday, 4th September 2009
SAGONID/Nik
There are many things that can Vex the spirit inside of us on this piece of Cosmic sawdust on which we live, yet one of the things that always gets my nut is how easily what you guys are saying can be "cast out" and deadened by the elite structures responsible for thier causation.
It is unjust and out of balance and to be honest, righteousness is still {and maybe always will be } a long, long way from coming home in our present age.
I don't know how a good man can redress these imbalances of Karma without building up a deficit himself.
Just pointing these injustices out is enough to get yourself impeached as some kind of lunatic patient.!
I suppose that , for sanity's sake, we have to believe that "its all trial and tribulation",and not truisms that have happened and will happen again and again and again.!
Kind regards
FimberLink to this forum: Assyrians, anyone realise they still exist?
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Message 13
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Friday, 4th September 2009
What on earth are you talking about Fimbar?
And any chance of writing something in clear English, with some decent punctuation as well?Link to this forum: Assyrians, anyone realise they still exist?
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Message 14
Posted by fimbar (U14054219) on Friday, 4th September 2009
I was just looking at a picture, by Layard depicting the Assyrian capital of Nineveh. It is an amazing Testimony to a civilization of great learning and progression. I wonder if you folk have knowledge of this ancient city..Any legends or myths that have stuck in your minds over the years..
For instance, after putting Ashe-rah into my search engine i have come back with a tree...
In my last post on this subject i posted about the first book of kings and in continuance of that theme it seems that while the prophets of Baal met an untimely end, [drowned in the river Kishon} the priests of the Ashe-rah apparently went unharmed.
What is this tree.? And how is it that the absolute ruler of this immensely powerful kingdom went on his knees before such a quaint bushy object.?
"Facsimiles"of the rituals by which the tree were honoured were, i have heard spoken, were carried in the pockets of princes , merchants and scribes...Do you know points of interest , in relation to this part of ancient Assyrian history.?
kind regards
Fimber
Ps. Has anyone also seen Layards painting of Nineveh..?{sure would appreciate knowing how evidential the painting is, in relation to that great city}Link to this forum: Assyrians, anyone realise they still exist?
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Message 15
Posted by fimbar (U14054219) on Friday, 4th September 2009
Cheers Stoggler "me matey"
I am on about Nik&SAGOS points . Maybe you could maybe read them.
best wishes
Fim {peacedove>Link to this forum: Assyrians, anyone realise they still exist?
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Message 16
Posted by SARGONID (U14121283) on Friday, 4th September 2009
The things that happened to indiginous peoples like the Assyrians, Armenians and Pontic Greeks are real and present to this day, as they directly relate to our position in the world now.
Regarding Nineveh, ive been round the ruins, also of Babylon, when visiting Assyrian relatives years ago, still very impressive.Link to this forum: Assyrians, anyone realise they still exist?
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Message 17
Posted by fimbar (U14054219) on Sunday, 6th September 2009
Thanks for that SAGONID
I hope you found that painting on line as it is, as you say, very impressive.
cheers..
Link to this forum: Assyrians, anyone realise they still exist?
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Message 18
Posted by fimbar (U14054219) on Monday, 7th September 2009
SAGONID
It seems that this tree originated from ancient Sumerian tradition.
It tells of Inanna, the queen of heaven, representative of life, taking a tree that grew on the banks of the river Euphrates as her symbol. Have you heard of such a story in your journeys across your Capital.?
The leaf like palmettes with which the tree is decorated on the plaques at Kalakh, reflect it seems, the ancient notion of a womb divided into 7 compartments..Was you able to see these plaques for yourself whilst you were visiting..?
If so did you form an idea of your own as to thier allegorical significance.?
Thank you very much for your post.
FimbarLink to this forum: Assyrians, anyone realise they still exist?
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