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Limitanei numbers/structure?

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by Gordopolis (U5722839) on Sunday, 12th July 2009

  Hi,
  
  I'm looking for a good source of information on the Limitanei (border troops) of the later Roman army.
  Googling around, the most information I can glean is that they were roughly 1000 men strong, but I am after the structure within that number. e.g. were they divided into centuries, did they have a 'first century' (like the first cohort of Augustan legions), did the role of Primus Pilus still exist etc etc.
  
  Any pointers or info would be greatly appreciated.
  
  Cheers,
  Gordopolis

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• Message 2

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  Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Monday, 13th July 2009

  
  Hi Gordopolis,
  
  I don't think that it is possible to give simple answers to your questions. The definition of words like 'limitanei' changed with time. What do you consider the later Roman army to be? There were almost certainly organisational differences between, for example, the 4th century army in the West, and the 6th century army in the East.
  
  The late Roman army contained units with famous early-Imperial names, like legio II Augusta, alongside newly created units; their administrative structures may well have been different. Even when it is possible to estimate the numbers of troops that could be housed at 4th century forts we cannot know to what extent units were kept up to strength. The notitia dignatatum enables the organisation and titles of senior officers to be determined, but the document may date from after the end of Roman Britain and perhaps reflects the situation as known to the Civil Service, rather than that currently on the ground.
  
  The basic unit was probably still the century with a notional strength of 80 men. It is thought that older units still had traditional 'centurions' but there is also the rank of 'centenarius' known. Did these differ? A ducenarius commanded (at least nominally) 200 men presumably. Officer titles were tribune, prefect and praepositus; how (or if) these differed is uncertain. I understand that sections of the frontier in Africa were commanded by 'praepositus limitis' under the overall command of a dux. I've not come across the title 'primus pilus' in any discussions of the later army, although conservative units might have kept it.
  
  A very readable source of information is 'The Late Roman Army' by Pat Southern & Karen Dixon (Routledge, 2000).
  
  TP
  

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• Message 3

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  Posted by TheodericAur (U13724457) on Monday, 13th July 2009

  Hi Gordopolis
  
  This site seems to have quite an interesting set of figures regarding the Roman Army - although it may not have the detail you need.
  
  
  
  Kind Regards - TA

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  Posted by englishvote (U5473482) on Tuesday, 14th July 2009

  
  Hi Gordopolis
  
  I doubt you will find any definitive answer to your questions because there is a sever lack of documentary evidence remaining from the 4th and 5th centuries dealing with the border troops. Unfortunately archaeological digs have also been unable to clarify the situation in regards the Roman army of the 4th and 5th centuries, but maybe there lays our best chance of discovering the answers.
  
  From what little that can be gleamed from the available evidence the border troops were made up of the old legions, vexillationes of cavalry together with the old units of cavalry Alae, infantry cohorts, cunei and Numeri.
  
  The border legions could have been the same strength as field army legions at around 1,200 men (or 1,000 men according to other historians) but the bases and forts where they wer based differ in size considerably which may mean that each legion’s complement depended on the area they defended.
  
  One brief discription can be found here, and it is as valid as many other.
  
  
  
  There are surviving documents from Egypt dated at around 300 AD, they list actual unit sizes of the time for the purposes of pay rather than β€œpaper strengths” which just as today would never have been achieved in the field.
  They list the newly formed Comitatenses field army legio 111 Diocletiana as having 1,035 men and the older Legio 11 Traiana as having 1,109 men.
  
  Also the base of the limitanei legi 1V Martia at Lejjun would appear to be about n 5th the size of an earlier legionary bases built to hold 5,500 men.
  The problem is that other limitanei legio bases differ in size so much that any assumption about fixed unit sizes is hard to prove.
  
  The old auxiliary cohorts would probably have still numbered around 500 men while the cavalry Vexillationes and units of Alae would have been around 300 strong, β€œon paper” of course.
  Surviving papyri lists actual unit strengths as 242 for a unit of Equites Sagittarii, while two two Alae have 367 and 211 men respectively.
  
  The fact that border troops were sometimes promoted to the field armies and given the title β€œPseudocomitatenses” could well mean that they were comparable in size and equipment to field army units.
  There is a common belief that the border troops were inferior to regular soldiers and not much more than town militia or armed farmers, but the evidence points towards them actually being well trained regulars.
  
  
  This website has some information on ranks within the Roman army of the 4th and 5th centuries.
  
  
  I have no idea if the information is correct and there are differing interpretations.
  
  
  I would also recommend Paul Elliott’s book β€œThe Last Legionary” which deals with the evidence from one individual perspective based on a fictional soldier of the late 4th century. It uses primary sources, archaeology and reconstructive archaeology wonderfully well to explain life in the late Roman army in Britain.
  

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• Message 5

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  Posted by Gordopolis (U5722839) on Tuesday, 14th July 2009

  Cheers for your help guys - some useful stuff there.
  
  Just to clarify, I was specifically after the Limitanei structure under Valens immediately before the battle of Adrianople (should have said in my original post) pre 378 AD.
  
  But looking through your links etc, it seems that the border armies were quite nebulous in their make-up, which makes sense when you consider the tumultuous nature of those borders in the late Empire.
  
  Anyway, that's been really helpful, cheers again.

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