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• Message 1.Β 

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Tuesday, 9th June 2009

  Perhaps 'creation myth' would be a kinder description than 'fairy story'. Many cultures and religions have poetic myths of this type.
  
  Members of the three Abrahamic faiths who, for religious reasons, regard the books of the Old Testament (if I may use the Christian designation) as the inspired and literal word of God must believe the account in Genesis as historical.
  
  Those of us who do not have this compelling motive to believe must have serious reservations that three men in the Middle East some 5000 years ago could be responsible for the current distribution of the world's population. Many skeletal remains of early hominids are far, far, older than 2348 BC, and the modern understanding of geology requires an age of the earth of several thousand million years; not a creation in 4004 BC.
  
  I'm not sure how you have come to the view that the world is 'always at war' because of this account, nor how views about Japhet, Ham & Shem could be conspiratorial.
  
  How do you feel about Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego?
  
  TP
  

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 2.

  Posted by U14015818 (U14015818) on Tuesday, 9th June 2009

  Creation myth will do for me. And i find it sensible to accept that nearly all belief systems have a similar tale.
  I am also happy using Torah, Koran or Hammadi scripture's when relating to " ye old testament"..You must forgive the christian with-in me when discussing the bible but as someone brought up as a catholic such "speech code's" were rammed down one's throat morning, day, and night.
  As i have become more wiser in life i have had to find meaning to replace these indoctrinations which of course have taken me to many different place's.
  { A compelling motive is exactly what i mean}Thank you for that.
  I actually do not believe today that the world in it's entirety is 5 thousand year's old. But i do have a rationale as to why it could of been....
  As someone who believes that science is a useful tool, i am able to better understand it's result's before the mambo jumbo of belief systems. This is not to say that science gives me all the answer's, and it doe's not mean that i believe all the result's it says "Add up"..
  After all, and please forgive the sceptic in me, i personally did not create radio carbon dating, so i "have" to believe rather than want to believe. My experience's tell me that down here , on Earth anything is possible...
  To give a sense of what i was referring to about what i meant by saying that the world is always at war because of these three brother's is a "biggy" to explain just now but if you read genesis 9 and 10 , i will give it a try...?
  In the meantime i will get my book's and give Daniel a good read and come back on you as to the three character's that you have mentioned.{one always See's something meaning full when your looking for it...}
  Thank you for your reply TwinProbe and i must say a reply in good spirit.
  Would like to speak more on this subject should you find the time..
  
  yours kindly
  j

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Wednesday, 10th June 2009

  I'm happy to discuss these matters, but in return perhaps you could be a little less reticent about your views? I'm still not entirely sure how old you believe the earth is, nor (having re-read Genesis 9 & 10) why the world is always at war because of the three brothers, nor what conspiracy has to do with it. Mind you I was please to read the early account of brick firing in Genesis 11 since this is one of my other interests. We also have to remember that this is a history message board, so we must resist the temptation to slide over into religion. Would you be interested in discussing how we obtain knowledge about the past since this relates to several points in your reply?
  
  Historical sources which purport to contain information must be examined critically. Were they intended to be objective accounts of events, or did the author have a political, or religious agenda? Was the author an actual witness to the events he or she relates? Do we have an original document or a much later copy into which additional material may have been added? Does the account provided in the document correspond to other information we have? Finally it is important to remember that a totally unhistorical statement may still have great value as poetry, or because of its ethical content.
  
  Many historical questions can be tested by the physical evidence that remains, in exactly the same way as the police can test witness statements against forensic evidence. For example I do believe that, subject to the usual experimental errors, radiocarbon and other forms of scientific dating are valid. There is consequently no future, in my opinion, in deriving a history for humanity that involves it coming into being 6000 years ago. Many Mesolithic and Neolithic sites are older than this, and most rocks are incomparably older.
  
  The big problem I see in bringing all this evidence together into an interpretation of the past is the question of whether a neutral, detached, value-free position is even theoretically possible. Some would claim that it is impossible in principle, others that it is possible to overcome bias and objectively explore the past. Although I believe that there is a real past, and not an infinite number of equally possible pasts, I am afraid that this real past is probably unknowable and the best we can do is determine which interpretations are just β€˜incomplete’ and which are 'even more wrong’. Maybe, as you say, on earth anything is possible, but some things are a lot more possible than others!
  
  Best wishes,
  
  TP
  
  

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 4.

  Posted by U14015818 (U14015818) on Wednesday, 10th June 2009

  Thank you for your kind, and may i add, generous response to my post.
  I will try hard to be a little more retentive in how i say thing's but do be gentle should i relapse...
  Genesis, 9.v24-29.paying attention to v,25.
  On my map of the Ancient world showing the "distribution" of the posterity of Noah i see that Shem is allocated Arabia...Japheth, Turkey, Iran...& Ham, gets today's Africa {Libya}
  Canaan gets Salem.
  With hindsight this kind of explains to me a lot about war and the rational that comfort's it's action's.?
  Gosh, this is embarrassing for me to say but i truly do not have a clue as to the age of the Earth.
  I believe it to be old in both date and adventure...
  The best guide i have is Ecclesiastes 1-18, very unscientific , i know, but the best i have.
  I like the idea of learning any Art and to fire brick's at that time seems to be an innovation.Just blows my brain sometimes how people invent these thing's.Do you use the same techniques today.?
  I would most certainly like to know more about how radio carbon dating works and how best to use the knowledge gained from such a discipline.
  Because it seems so obvious to me that the Earth must be older than the 6000 years of biblical account's , i kind of rationalise that those 6000 years must possess an hidden meaning...I sometimes feel that what is meant is that 6000 years is just the beginning of nothing more that a relatively modern point in time. {do you yourself have thoughts on this}..This statement obviously infers that there were points in time that come before.The thing that blows my brain though, if i am to believe this to be true, is how did Earths "residents" successfully progress from the one point to the next.?
  For instance did , if my feeling is correct, some lifeforms retain information during this transition and pass it on, or alternatively,did one "tribe" just slaughter everyone alive and just claim 6000 years as the beginning of life.{ what are your thoughts?}
  
  I have just been looking into something called the "Anunnaki"..and i came across some writings from the Mesopotamian time zone.{e-elish}, how would one approach these tablets and the information contained on them.?, especially in the light of how many people consider them "occultly" note-worthy.?
  
  
  Thanks again for your response
  
  kind regards
  j

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by cloudyj (U1773646) on Wednesday, 10th June 2009

  I would most certainly like to know more about how radio carbon dating works and how best to use the knowledge gained from such a discipline.Β 
  
  This is going back many years to my university days, so hopefully I'll get it right.
  
  Carbon exists in various forms, predominantly carbon-12 which is stable. However, in the upper atmosphere carbon-12 can be converted to carbon-14.
  
  Carbon-14 is converted to carbon dioxide and absorbed by plants and converted to carbon-containing material such as wood. Hence it ends up in wooden beams, animal bones (after the animal eats a plant) and sundry carbon containing material. For a tree growing today has effectively the same amount of carbon-14 as the atnmosphere, but when it dies it stops absorbing C-14. The quantity of carbon-14 then decreases in a very predictable manner as the carbon radioactively decays to nitrogen.
  
  The amount of carbon-14 lost from the known initial stock is directly related to the age of the material.
  
  Now the amount in the atmosphere does fluctuate and various other effects can alter the process, so generally the date comes out as a range.
  
  However, it can't be used for anything more than about 60,000 years ago - nor for things like rocks which usually don't contian carbon. Rocks are dated by other techniques involving radioactive decay of differnt materials.

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by U14015818 (U14015818) on Wednesday, 10th June 2009

  Ok, i get that. But.....
  Do you know who invented this process.?.Could the facts of this measure be fixed in some way to trick the person using it..By this i mean if i engineer a machine to my own specifications would it not always give me the desired result.? {this is not to say that carbon dating doesn't work} but rather that, to my simple mind science does pocess many tricks..especially if there is an agenda..
  How transparent is this dating process ? and how many people would know if it is fallible.?
  Sorry my friend this is not a criticism just a question..
  
  
  Kind regards
  j

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