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Galatia
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Message 1.Β
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Wednesday, 4th February 2009
Where was Drunematon?
Were the Galatians the original Celts? -
Message 2
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Wednesday, 4th February 2009
What do you mean by "Celts" Sir GΓΆr?
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Message 3
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Wednesday, 4th February 2009
Drunemeton? Was it a particular location? Or the name for a place of worship?
By Galatia do you refer to the lands of modern France or the region in mid-east Minor Asia? If to the second, well it was named after the establishment of Gaul immigrants in the region. In the 4th century as we know Gauls (for unknown reasons, but perhaps for hunger or war) came down in great numbers (men, women, children) to Italy and sieged and sacked Rome. Romans eventually pushed them up and out of the Italic peninsula, thus commencing with that event their expansion and Gauls continued their wild path down to the Hellenic peninsula passing of course first from Pannonia (modern Hungary, Slovenia and north Croatia-Serbia).
From that point of course it is naturally to imagine that the Gaulic army was not all-Gaulic but they had brought with them a large number of local Pannonian tribes (not necessarily Illyrians but some of them why not). Otherwise the very large numbers mentioned cannot be exlained nor their immense cavalry (Pannonia though was indeed a place of horses and cowboys since then...).
So Gauls descended with around 200,000 men of whom the 1/4 was the cavalry - a first-time in the Greek military history. Even more interestingly, Gauls were descending along with families so you can imagine the raid of half a million people! The Gaulic cataclysm.
The largest Greek army at the time was the Macedonian and had an upper maximum of 40,000 out of which only 5,000 was the cavalry!!! The rest even allied ones would njot be more than 15,000 with some 2,000 horses or something, piece of cake for the numerically overwhelming Gauls that could also on the top exploit from the fact that Greek armies of the time were considerably less "heavy armoured" and thus their cavalry could just enter and slaugher in the mass of the anyway few opponents.
Gauls however lacked the sieging tools and complex strategies hence they largely kept it to ravaging the countyside to sustain their numbers and plundering whatever they could in their way.
They pierced the kingdom of Macedonia where they beat the first Macedonian army that met them killing also the king, I think Ptolemeos, however they managed to lose the second battle against a second Macedonian army led by aristocrat landowners. But in the third battle they won again, but then their leader Brennos decided not to stay (and face more and more battles without plundering - they had an army to maintain) but move to the south in search of easier pray. Southern Greeks had one choice, Thermopylae to stop the large numbers of Gauls and that is what they did, Gauls could not pass, they came to a hault. Hence, Bernnos decided to split his army and send the 1/4th (as little as... 40K men!) to raid neighbouring Aetolia in hope that the Aetolians who were the largest part of that allied army would quit Thermopylae to protect their homeland. And so they did but actually they managed to chop up the Gaulic army to less than 20K men... Brennos, as if he learnt his history blackmailed locals to show to him - probably the same that Persians used - path to encircle the allied southern Greeks and that is what he did successfuly and attacked the small opposing force from all sides winning a relatively easy battle. So the remaining of the allied army dissolved and was evacuated from the sea.
Then Brennos turned to raid Delphi what he possibly did successfully (despite many saying the opposite), however if indeed, not finding those mythical treasures that some others say; the Delphi had been already raided by Greeks (Phocians I think) in their inbetween wars some decades back.
However, during the continuing battles with the Aetolian league, Gauls continued to suffer heavy losses and in the final one with them they woke up in the middle of a stormy night and started fighting with each other - the event described by Greeks as the result of their superstition, however lets not forget that Gauls were not only Gauls but a large number of various tribes from Pannonia and that at that moment their army had gathered enough loot to have a reason to fight... In anyway, Aitolians attacked and won easily, inflicting heavy losses on them. From that point the Gauls spiraled downwards being attacked and pushed up and out from each Greek state. Macedonians inflicted upon them another extensive blow but due to the fact that the remaining Gauls continued to be always a sizeable army if added to those ones that remained in the north of the peninsula, they permitted them to march and pass to Minor Asia where after adventures they established themselfs in inner Minor Asia, east of Phrygians and west of Kappadocians with their lands renamed as "Galatia".
They remained there for quite some time as Gauls (though do not imagine any similarity to Gauls of France and do not imagine any druids searching for oak tries in Minor Asia (there are though), that group had passed some more than a century on the go and had mixed with a lot of central European tribes) and they finally became hellenised by mid-period of Roman Empire. Their story quite an interesting one! -
Message 4
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Wednesday, 4th February 2009
Drunemeton? Was it a particular location? Or the name for a place of worship?
By Galatia do you refer to the lands of modern France or the region in mid-east Minor Asia?Β
It seems to be a place of tree worship in Asia minor.
But that is Dodona which originally had an oak tree as the centre for worship, which was gradually replaced by stone altars.
Were these the Galatians to whom the Epistles were written then, in Niko's post? -
Message 5
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Wednesday, 4th February 2009
What do you mean by "Celts" Sir GΓΆr? Β
Thanks for asking again Stodge. It does seem to be excessive to base evidence for a whole big group of people on some salt mine sarcophagi in Austria.
Is that ALL Hallstatt is, and has it been invented since it was dug up?
I am looking at the first degree modules of Lamp, and you know how keen they are on Celts.
I see they are also keen on archaeo-astrology led by that great thinker Jung.
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Message 6
Posted by Stoggler (U1647829) on Wednesday, 4th February 2009
Who's Stodge?
Hard /g/ sound please, not a /dj/ sound. -
Message 7
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Wednesday, 4th February 2009
Sir Gar, yes the "Pros Galatai" (to Galatians) epistole was written to be sent to the christian populations of the region of Galatia in central Minor Asia, that is of course the place where went and established themselves the remaining (still a lot) Gauls of the raid to Greece . Mid-1st A.D. century was just 300 years away from the Gaulic raid and taking for granted that Galatia was surrounded by mountains and though not at all isolated, certainly not the most cosmopolitan place of Minor Asia meant that Gaulic language and some traditions would remain there visible when Paul passed by albeit hellenised to a large extent. However as I said, even the most remote Gaulic villages there and since the 2nd B.C. century would not had been Gaulic in the central western European way. Gauls that attacked the Greek states were also dragging along with them many different Pannonian tribes and possibly some Illyrian ones (though Gauls had mainly raided the bulk of Illyrians). I am not aware of gaulic druid religion there surviving, I find it difficult for it to had survived in any original druidic form, though I cannot exclude synchretism of gaulic, phrygian and hellenic religious elements.
Gauls there remained distinguishable perhaps as late as 300 A.D. when they were hellenised completely though the term "Helleno-Galatae" would be used a bit longer since the region was always called Galatia bringing memories of that old raid. -
Message 8
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Wednesday, 4th February 2009
Ok stog Hard /g/ sound please, not a /dj/ soundΒ ler
I cannot exclude synchretism of gaulic, phrygian and hellenic religious elements.Β
Theophany, Nikolaos. The Mosaic tradition was it not of a vision at the burning bush, spread in to many religions, including Mormonism in recet years and Druidism, and the sooth sayers of the Sacred Grove as well.
Is this just coincidental to religious experience
or did Josiah Smith for example adopt as a vivid story with a good pedigree, I wonder.
(there must be much better examples) -
Message 9
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Saturday, 7th February 2009
Who's Stodge?
Hard /g/ sound please, not a /dj/ sound.Β
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Message 10
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Saturday, 7th February 2009
you can imagine the raid of half a million people!Β
Not just a bunch of nomads then.
Niko you say
"not some druids looking for an oak tree"
or some such words, and yet the historiographer of the 17th English king Charles 2nd who was a classicist and of ancient Welsh extraction sounds as though he would have liked to have done exactly that in his book "Dodona's Grove".
He must have been the prototype E-traveller, writing travel books about places he never (as far as we know) actually managed to visit. He was however a seasoned traveller to Venice and Spain.
I do the same today an E-journey that I never go on, but journeys that I also do go on!
Brits have done weird things over the centuries and seeking Drunematon may have been one of his.
It did not really matter where; He knew the myth; he knew the Druid legend of the sacred tree being the original place of worship and even soothsaying and he also knew that it was Greek myth as well.
His trees were political statements, allegories of kings, at a time when making comments about kings was not permitted, so a soothsayer himself in a way. Making comments about kings is not appreciated by supporters of kings even today, but that is a different matter entirely.
So both the Druids of Northern Europe/Brits and the priests of Galatia, worshiped at the sacred tree, the Dru-s or oak. -
Message 11
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Saturday, 7th February 2009
Hmm, above I did not speak with certainty. I just said that I do not believe that Gauls of Minor Asia would be so similar to Gauls of France after more than 1 century on the go plus the mix with their Pannonian (non-Gaulic) allies. Now perhaps some basic gaulic religious elements (like tree worhsip) survived for more there but I would not expect intact gaulic culture there. If anything, even their language would be quite mixed, but then neighbouring Phrygians, Kappadocians or Greeks would consider it as Gaulic as they would not have the chance to hear very often some Gaulic/Celtic from France or elsewhere.
I also never understood the relationship of Drunematon with Dodoni's tree. Holy places with trees and such was not any Celtic caprice; many other cultures had such. According to the myth as said by Herodotus, the Dodoni tree became famous after the locals having bought one Egyptian priestess that was stolen by Phoenician pirates from Egypt (her sister was sold somewhere in Libya) who remained there and became the oracle-priestess of Epirots - all that back in the late Mycenaean early archaic times, but it seems that the Dodoni tree was a place of worship even before that event. However, I do not see any similarity there and why would anyone relate Dodoni with Celtic religious practices (I mean there are always similarities in religions, but for these to have a more direct link, one has to explain better the case). -
Message 12
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Sunday, 8th February 2009
not see any similarity there and why would anyone relate Dodoni with Celtic religious practicesΒ
Stoggler's question is a good one, partly to understand any wider definition of "Celt".
However is Tree worship in any way intrinsic to
primitive worship in general? There were quite a few of them about.
Is tree worship noticeable in recently researched
primitive cultures, in other parts of the world, which would suggest that it is intrinsic?
If it is not, then surely there is likely to be a link between the Asia minor tree worship of that time, and the acknowledged tree worship of the Dru-ids?
It is very surprising how people did get around in Europe and Asia minor in Classical time, and their beliefs went with them.
The Epistle to the Galatians is interesting and the associated Mosaic code too.
One wonders whether the legalism of the Mosaic code was something of which Hywel dda, (Law,945ad
Wales)was well aware, while drawing up his book.
If he was, then was he also aware of the significance of Paul's epistle to the Galatians,
and the close apparent link to the people of West Wales. -
Message 13
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Wednesday, 11th February 2009
I do not think that those ancient religions were any more primitive than later ones called monotheistic (if anything most ancient ones were also monotheistic - however we are not so educated as to understand the the word "god" was not used to describe the same "entity" as in later monotheistic ones - from there one you have 12 Gods and 12 Apostles... so you get the idea...).
Now, tree worship was not necessarily a part of all religions but most certainly it was quite widespread so that none can claim that its presence somewhere can be traced down to Celtic influence. That said, it does not mean that tree-worship in Galatia of Minor Asia would be traced down to local traditions when we know that even Celtic originated language survived for some centuries, well into Roman era.
However, I did not exactly understand the comments about Mosaic law and its links to Celtic religious traditions surviving in Minor Asia. If anything, Jewish people that refused even the last chance of poor people to eat some protein (the meat of hecatombs - one of the best things in terms of social practice back then!) would more than certainly refuse even to talk about Celts and their trees... -
Message 14
Posted by Sir Gar Hywel dda (U13786187) on Wednesday, 11th February 2009
The ways of India which I have never visited, always serve as a valuable reflection of more western customs. The Hindu cult of Rat worship in one of their temples is a reminder that anything *can* be worshiped and set up as a God and to have the natural Tree as the object of veneration in some places would not be unusual. They probably have it in India even now!
There!
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