Ancient and ArchaeologyΒ permalink
Senlac - what if
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Message 1.Β
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Wednesday, 20th August 2008
the - probably - most important battle in western history was fought between 2 armies of about 7000- almost a minor skirmish - at hastings
it paved the way for the creation of the british empire (1/4 of the worlds surface and 1/3 of its population)
this should probably be posted on a wargamers board
- BUT :=
what would have happened if Williams army would have attacked uphill against a roman legion -
400 years after the military science at the time - instead of a saxon shield wall they would have fought a compact professional army
what woulg have happened
st -
Message 2
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Wednesday, 20th August 2008
Well they wouldnt have come down off the hill. But I dont know what they would have done about the cavlalry. Stood still and broken it up with pilums?
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Message 3
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Wednesday, 20th August 2008
Hi BTTDP,
Don't be silly; everyone knows you can't break cavalry up with plums. The most effective deterrent is polo mints scattered over the hillside. Horses love them so much, that if they see one in front of them, they stop immediately in mid-charge, with the result that their riders are hurled from their saddles in pure comedy fashion.
Cheers,
RF -
Message 4
Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Wednesday, 20th August 2008
RF! Where were you when I needed you? its been like being a one legged man at a bum kicking contest.
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Message 5
Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Thursday, 21st August 2008
Hi BTTDP,
If you're talking about the ongoing "Bar Wars" then I'll leave you to it mate! I think I'll take a break for a while and wait for things to settle down a bit...
Cheers,
RF -
Message 6
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Thursday, 21st August 2008
It does raise an interesting historical question however - if William, after sticking it to Harold and then proceeding post-haste through the land cutting down opposition before it could be voiced, found that his newly won acquisition was populated by lemonade bars filled with pointless emoticons, what would he have done? He might have been justifiably nicknamed the Buzzard but I still reckon he'd have had sense enough to know when he was licked, and would have scarpered back to the Duchy before one could say Jacques Fils-de-Merle.
Just think of it - how different things would be now had he done so. For a start, we'd all have to forget all the French we know and stick to speaking English.
Oh, wait a mo ... -
Message 7
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Thursday, 21st August 2008
o what fun - lol
but my point is that after 499 years of improvement (??) one roman legion on senlac would have succeeded at hastings quite easily
a locked shield wall of a roman legion could have dealt with the norman attack - no probs
st -
Message 8
Posted by Philip25 (U11566626) on Monday, 25th August 2008
But would the Romans have fought at Senlac (why not call it Hastings?) or chosen such a position.
The problem with your question is that given a different army, with different training, weapons and approach, the campaign would probably not have unfolded as it did.
As for how the Roman legions got on when facing (heavy) cavalry and archers, look at their capaigns against the Parthians (Crassus was defeated at Carrhae by archers and horsemen, or Antonius - who also got into a pickle), or a later campaign such as Adrianople.
The later Roman army changed - see the sort of forces "King Arthur" might have used, as the stirrup and the nature of their adversaries meant that old solutions were no longer relevant.
Phil -
Message 9
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Thursday, 28th August 2008
hi phillip25
you are correct - the whole campaign would have panned out very differently if a legion had been involved -
it was just a thought - a what if - instead of 2 armies slashing and biting - in what turned out to be a very important - albeit minor battle -
the defensive army was proffesional and knew what was happening - the wall would not have broken
is there any way the normans could have won the battle
i think not -
Message 10
Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Saturday, 30th August 2008
"(why not call it Hastings?)"
Because hastings is about 7 miles away from the battlefield site.
I would call it Sandlake. -
Message 11
Posted by Philip25 (U11566626) on Saturday, 30th August 2008
The village of Waterloo is some distance (2 miles or more) from the battlefield that takes its name (Mont St Jean for the French, La Belle Alliance for the Prussians). Mont St Jean lies just a few metrees away from the centre of Wellington's line, but there has never really been any controversy about the name of the battle - at least among British hitorians and writers.
To insist on Hastings being called Senlac, is to pedantic and rather unnecessary. Everyone knows the battle as "Hastings" - so why bother to change. It is not as though the site of battle has ever been in question or that modern research has changed it.
Now at Bosworth there is real debate about where precisely the battle was fought, and the discussion could change our understanding of the tactics adopted and the way the battle turned out. Even so, I suspect that it would not change references to "Bosworth" in textbooks.
The reason I say that? because as with hastings, Bosworth was a POLITICALLY decisive battle (i.e. it was not only of military significance). Both battles changed the dymasty on the throne and to an extent the course of national history. So it is to an EVENT, not a location of a battle that the name usually refers.
Of course, refer to it as you wish. Just don't except me to play childish games or not to question.
Phil -
Message 12
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Saturday, 30th August 2008
Hi Tim,
If you wanted to name the Battle of Hastings after the nearest modern settlement wouldn't there be something to be said for calling in the Battle of Battle? There is an area of uncertainty over the exact location of many ancient battle sites of course.
Actually there are difficulties with these conventions. As you will know when describing Roman forts and settlements in is usual to use the modern name rather than the Roman ie "interesting new finds at Corbridge" rather than Coria. This is sensible since the Roman designations are occasionally subject to change. The exception to this is Vindolanda, always known by the Roman name.
The synod important in the life of St Wilfrid is described by Bede as the Synod of Streonshalh. This is almost certainly the place now known by its Danish name of Whitby. Calling the battle 'Hastings' or the synod 'Whitby' is unambiguous and comprehensible, but just might misplace the events. Using 'Senlac' or 'Streonshalh' is accurate but will pose difficulties for many readers. Perhaps we should always use both forms?
Regards,
TP -
Message 13
Posted by Philip25 (U11566626) on Saturday, 30th August 2008
Am I right in thinking that the coinage "Vindolanda" originated in the Birley's dig on the non-English heritage part of the site (the vicus rather than the surviving remains of the fort which (I seem to recall) used to be known as Chesterholm.
Probably the two have now been conjoined in nomenclature/ But the world-famous tablets, the reconstructed wall and turf-wall etc, are all on the Birley's area, are they not?
Phil -
Message 14
Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Sunday, 31st August 2008
I cannot think of a British battle that is named after somewhere so distance as Hastings is from the battleield site. Senlac was used at the time and Sandlake is the English version. I do not see the point in carrying on using something that is clearly wrong just because it is widely used.
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Message 15
Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Sunday, 31st August 2008
Hi TP
I agree that the Battle of Battle might be a reaonable compromise, Anglo-Saxon battles are often referred to by their modern name rather than the one originally used.
regards
Tim -
Message 16
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Sunday, 31st August 2008
Harold seems to have got involved in a number of such misplaced battles. I checked on the atlas and his previous battle, the one at Stamford Bridge, was nowhere near Chelsea's ground either. Were Chelsea playing away that weekend perhaps?
Similarly the Battle of the Bulge was fought hundreds of miles away from Churchill.
It does make you wonder about historical accuracy though, doesn't it? -
Message 17
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Sunday, 31st August 2008
aha
but battle was only called battle cos of the battle - lol -
Message 18
Posted by stalteriisok (U3212540) on Sunday, 31st August 2008
and the battle of stamford bridge was in fact chelsea millwall 1975 and the leader of millwall was harold the dog !!
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Message 19
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Sunday, 31st August 2008
Hi Phil,
I'm sure that you are correct, although I've not heard the name 'Chesterholm' for years. At least there is good epigraphic evidence that Vindolanda was indeed the Roman name.
TP -
Message 20
Posted by Tim of Acleah (U1736633) on Tuesday, 2nd September 2008
"Were Chelsea playing away that weekend perhaps?"
presumably against York City. -
Message 21
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Tuesday, 2nd September 2008
I think you're right Tim. It was around that time that York had a load of Norwegian players (who famously turned up for the match without all their kit and had to give Chelsea a walk-over).
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Message 22
Posted by Philip25 (U11566626) on Tuesday, 2nd September 2008
As an amusing sidelight on this discussion,
I was told that an upper class lady (I think a daughter of Earl Spencer) summoned a taxi to her country seat and demanded to be taken to Stamford Bridge. Expecting to see a soccer match she was somewhat surprised to find herself near York!!
Maybe Harold's problem was all the taxi-driver's fault?
Phil
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