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messages being 'flashed' in ancient rome?

• Message 1.Β 

  Posted by bachor (U11235517) on Tuesday, 12th August 2008

  hello-
  
  awhile back i finished the historically-based book of fiction "Pompeii" by Robert Harris. while i know it's a work of fiction, he writes about messages being "flashed signal tower to signal tower all the way up to Rome." i've never heard of such a technology existing in ancient rome. is this truth or fiction?
  
  thanks in advance!

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Tuesday, 12th August 2008

  Bachor,
  
  I think it is the truth, but have to do research for it. But there are far more competent people over here than I. Look for instance to a RF...Rainbowfolly etc etc in full. There is a message from him here directly underneath for the moment.
  
  And BTW. Welcome to the boards.
  
  Warm regards,
  
  Paul.

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• Message 3

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  Posted by Backtothedarkplace (U2955180) on Wednesday, 13th August 2008

  I remember seeing a program on the TV were they reconstructed a roman signaling system which used a sort of semaphore system of coloured squares and flaps by closing flaps according to a code book you could send messages. The program did say that during the night an array of torches could be used as well.
  
  I wouldnt describe any of them as flashing though. Perhaps the writer was just trying to give an impression of the speed of the system?
  
  

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• Message 4

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  Posted by WarsawPact (U1831709) on Wednesday, 13th August 2008

  Link to "Roman Military Signalling" book review:
  
  

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• Message 5

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  Posted by bachor (U11235517) on Wednesday, 13th August 2008

  thanks paul - these boards are a great source of information. bachor

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by bachor (U11235517) on Wednesday, 13th August 2008

  thanks for the information and good point about the meaning of the word 'flash.'
  
  i've read a few books on ancient history and it surprises me that i've never run across a mention of such a system. it does, however, make sense that they should of had some sort of thing.

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• Message 7

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  Posted by bachor (U11235517) on Wednesday, 13th August 2008

  thank you

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• Message 8

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  Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Wednesday, 13th August 2008

  Hi bachor,
  
  This is from an interesting article from the Roman Gask Project about signalling on the Gask Ridge in Perthshire, Scotland:
  For, as all long range Roman signalling relied on visual techniques (Leiner, 1982), direct communications could only take place between intervisible sites. The reader is cautioned from the outset, however, that such a study can only show what was possible or, at best, likely. For, signalling is a process that leaves little physical trace and attracted scant detailed comment from ancient writers. It must always be remembered, therefore, that the fact that a signalling system was apparently both possible and desirable on a given Roman deployment does not necessarily mean that any such system actually existed. That said, there are design oddities on a number of Roman frontiers that only seem to make sense as moves to accommodate signalling (Woolliscroft 1989a and Woolliscroft and Hoffmann 1991) so that some signals provision does appear likely on many, if not all, of Rome's major military systems. Β 
  Further on it discusses what range the signals may have had:
  Donaldson (1988, 352-3) has argued that the fact that the Gask Ridge sites are so closely spaced suggests that the signalling techniques employed on the system were limited in range to around a Roman mile. But experiments by the writer (Woolliscroft, 1993, 26-61) have shown that almost all the recorded Roman visual methods were capable of much greater ranges, even in less than perfect weather: especially the relatively primitive, beacon based, alarm signals that are likely to have been of most use on the frontiers (Woolliscroft, 1989a, 9).Β 
  SIGNALLING AND THE DESIGN OF THE GASK RIDGE SYSTEM
  
  
  There was actually already a communications network in place, instituted by Augustus, called the "cursus publicus" which involved a network of stations along the road system. One of its main roles was the passing of messages by horse throughout the Roman Empire, and I'd expect it to have been well established by the time Vesuvius erupted in AD79. Although slower than a signal, a messenger could travel on horseback with a message, and depending on the urgency and confidentiality of the message, may have passed the message on to a further rider in the manner of a relay.
  
  It's possible that there may have been manned beacons or watchtowers at these sites (although I don't know of any evidence to support this), but I think that in comparison to letters, the messages that could have been passed on would have been quite limited, especially if beacons were used. I'd argue that if watchtowers/beacons were so efficient in passing a detailed message from Pompeii to Rome, then why was the cursus publicus used for this purpose?
  
  There's a couple of posters here with sound archaeological knowledge who might be able to ummm... "enlighten" us on any evidence of non-military beacons and watchtowers.
  
  One thing I'm certain of, is that smoke signals wouldn't have been too much use after Vesuvius popped its top...
  
  Cheers,
  
  
  RF

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• Message 9

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  Posted by bachor (U11235517) on Thursday, 14th August 2008

  great info RF - thanks! - bachor

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• Message 10

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  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Thursday, 14th August 2008

  Re: Message 1.
  
  Bachor,
  
  did some research for you...hmm..."some"...got obsessed with it and spent yesterday the whole evening to it...
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Warm regards,
  
  Paul.

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• Message 11

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  Posted by PaulRyckier (U1753522) on Thursday, 14th August 2008

  hmm: corrections:
  
  
  
  As for the JSTOR link which don't work. As usual it gives the first page and then you have to pay 12 Pound for the full content.
  
  By doing the research I found also the article from RF about the GASK RIDGE;
  There is also an http confirming exactly what bttdp said
  
  Warm regards to all,
  
  Paul.

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• Message 12

  , in reply to message 8.

  Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Friday, 15th August 2008

  Fri, 15 Aug 2008 19:36 GMT, in reply to RainbowFfolly (And His Oil-Divining Stonehenge Hat) in message 8
  
  I think that in comparison to letters, the messages that could have been passed on would have been quite limited, especially if beacons were used. I'd argue that if watchtowers/beacons were so efficient in passing a detailed message from Pompeii to Rome, then why was the cursus publicus used for this purpose?Β 
  
  I think you've answered your own question, there. I suspect that signal stations were probably used for sending basic messages, possibly even using shorthand codes for predetermined texts - not unlike naval flag signals; the cursus publicus would be for lengthier/more complex dispatches. IIRC, the semaphore stations in Napoleonic England could send a message from Portsmouth to London in about seven minutes. Even if the methods available to the Romans were less sophisticated, you could no doubt get a similar service, which would be of obvious military value ("Out of wine - send help" )

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• Message 13

  , in reply to message 11.

  Posted by bachor (U11235517) on Tuesday, 19th August 2008

  great information paul.
  (especially like the draining water jug 'technology')
  
  - thank you!
  
  jim

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• Message 14

  , in reply to message 12.

  Posted by bachor (U11235517) on Tuesday, 19th August 2008

  history would probably have taken a different course if they had used wine instead of water when employing the 'draining water jug' message relay system!
  

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• Message 15

  , in reply to message 14.

  Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Tuesday, 19th August 2008

  Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:04 GMT, in reply to bachor in message 14
  
  history would probably have taken a different course if they had used wine instead of water when employing the 'draining water jug' message relay system!Β 
  
  "Message from Tower III, Centurion - they say that we're their best mates"

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• Message 16

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  Posted by RainbowFfolly (U3345048) on Tuesday, 19th August 2008

  ...but on the other hand, signals could be quite easily misunderstood if they were wearing wine-goggles...
  
  "What did you jusht shay about my shishter Shervilia?!?!"

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